Halo 5 a H3/H4 Hybrid?

There’s been a lot discussion about Armor Abilities to drop or keep and whether or not Equipment should/would ever return. I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on the situation and I believe the answer is that BOTH should return. Just hear me out on this.

To start I think there should be fewer Armor Abilities, in fact I would cut them down to 2: Hologram and Jetpack. They would essentially perform the same way they did in Halo 4. I’ve decided to only use 2 because I believe so many can create sort of a “randomness” feeling and makes it more unpredictable for other players to guess which Armor Ability other players have. Not to mention very many were underused/useless (Autosentry, Thruster Pack, Hardlight Shield, ect…). Or some were over-abused by players, such as Promethean Vision. Some of the other Armor Abilities that I chose not to return would simply become Equipment again: Camo, Regeration Field, and Bubble Shield. While also returning some classic favorites: Overshield, Tripmine, Power Drain, and Grav Lift.

As far as Tactical Packages and Support Upgrades, I would simply remove them. They are, again, simply too random and are unneeded in Halo. Loadouts would return but would be more limited in what you have access to at the start. You can only select your starting Primary Weapon and Armor Ability. Every player would get a Magnum and Frag Grenade as default. All other weapons, grenades, and equipment would simply be map pickups.

I believe the way Elites and Spartans have been treated lately have been absurd. I think they should go back to what to the way it was in Halo 3: You chose whether you were a Spartan or Elite. Vehicles, however, should remain the same.

I believe all these changes will help both satisfy Classic/Infinity players, and help Halo point back in the right direction again. Halo 4 was a good start, but Halo 5 needs to be phenomenal. I will be editing this topic as time goes and as new ideas come.

There are a few things that I would like you to address for me Randude.

  1. Only hologram and thruster? Don’t you think that is a bit bizzare only 2 armor abilities? There needs to be at least 5 or 6 like reach don’t you think?

  2. Isn’t equipment a bit unessisary now that AAs are around? I mean all an AA is essentially is a more useful reusable piece of equipment, it just seems a bit redundant.

  3. No more tactical packages and support upgrades? But Randude what about playstyle differences? I shiver at the though of going back to inherent resupply explosives and that’s that. Never was a big grenade thrower, I MUCH prefer swapping them out for a couple perks I do really like. It is simply a nerf to anyone who does not specifically like resupply explosives.

> There are a few things that I would like you to address for me Randude.
>
> 1. Only hologram and thruster? Don’t you think that is a bit bizzare only 2 armor abilities? There needs to be at least 5 or 6 like reach don’t you think?

I chose Hologram and JETPACK, not Thruster. I feel that simplifying AAs would help keep Halo simple and less confusing and chaotic.

> 2. Isn’t equipment a bit unessisary now that AAs are around? I mean all an AA is essentially is a more useful reusable piece of equipment, it just seems a bit redundant.

I feel as though some AAs were never meant to be. I think Camo serves a better purpose as equipment because it creates map flow and a reason to go out. That is the fundamental problem with AAs. In Halo 3, it used to be about going out and getting the equipment before the Enemy teams. But now since it’s an AA, you can simply just spawn with it and just camp out the game.

> 3. No more tactical packages and support upgrades? But Randude what about playstyle differences? I shiver at the though of going back to inherent resupply explosives and that’s that. Never was a big grenade thrower, I MUCH prefer swapping them out for a couple perks I do really like. It is simply a nerf to anyone who does not specifically like resupply explosives.

I like the idea of it, but the main issue with it is that there’s no way to guess what Packages/Upgrades other players have. It creates this randomness, which is bad for gameplay.

If you don’t like being a grenadier, then just beeline for where the Sniper Rifle spawns and ignore the batch of Plasma Grenades that spawn over in the corners elsewhere in the map.

Want to keep using the sniper rifle after you get it?
Make sure no one on the other team can pick it up when it respawns.

Worried about wasting sniper ammo? Conserve it then - don’t take shots you don’t think will be useful and make each one count, since it’s gonna be a full two minutes before that sniper respawns.

You don’t need Perks and Support Packages to follow a specific playstyle.

Personally I would wish for Halo 5 being its own game with its own clear signature. I don’t want to see any form of hybrid again or a simple copy of past titles.

> To start I think there should be fewer Armor Abilities, in fact I would cut them down to 2: <mark>Hologram and Jetpack</mark>. […] Not to mention very many were underused/useless […]or some were over-abused by players,

Why those two? And then two which are the current extremes in regards to overall usefulness/effectiveness.
I think you just picked an abilitly that is underused/useless and one that can be over-abused.
I mean, who would pick Hologram when you have Jetpack as an alternative?

Anyway, I think keeping AAs as they currently are and trying to tweak/nerf them individually or limiting them to just a pair won’t get us far with the “AA issue”.
The people who don’t like them for reasons have still to bother them while the people who like them for reasons have to bother with a crippled and poor selection.
Returning to equipment would also be unprogressive in my opinion.
When I look past at Halo 3 I think it hardly added anything significant to its gameplay. It was just another form of (minor) additional advantage.
Besides, maps create map flow in the first place. Items on maps can either interrupt that natural flow or support it, that’s why too many items on a map is always critical.
Plus, Equipment was never something people strived to obtain as far as I have experienced it. It was more like better I have an equipment than nothing at all.

Personally I (currently) think there are 3 options in regards to AAs/equipment:

  1. remove them entirely from the MP and invest the time into different parts of it (i.e: maps)

  2. incorporate some AAs into the design of certain maps or certain gametypes as inherent gameplay elements.
    I.e: a map that incorporated Jetpack (or alternatively Thruster Pack) as an default movement mechanic into its design.
    That has the potential to lead to quite interesting and fresh map layouts, flows and gameplays.

  3. implement a full-fledged class system and link an AA/equipment to a certain class.

> Loadouts would return but would be more limited in what you have access to at the start. You can only select your starting Primary Weapon and Armor Ability. Every player would get a Magnum and Frag Grenade as default. All other weapons, grenades, and equipment would simply be map pickups.

But when we heavily restrict them what is the point of having them anyways?
When they primarily just offer you a selection of primary weapons only to please the players personal weapon preference then we could just as well implement a rotation of weapons at spawn.
I.e:
CQC map - some matches everyone spawns with an AR, other matches everyone spawns with a Storm Rifle.
Mid-range map - some matches everyone spawns with a BR, other matches everyone spawns with a Carbine.
Mixed map - it is either BR and AR or CC and SR

The advantage of that would be that you can design the weapons more freely and making them properly unique because you don’t have to balance them for loadouts.

On the other hand when you want to go full class based shooter with Halo I would suggest implementing proper and full-fledged preset (preferably non-customizable) classes, each with its own significant role within the gameplay.

> I believe all these changes will help both satisfy Classic/Infinity players, and help Halo point back in the right direction again. Halo 4 was a good start, but Halo 5 needs to be phenomenal. I will be editing this topic as time goes and as new ideas come.

I think a game that is not really “classic” and not really “infinity” won’t really satisfy any side.
I would say Halo’s MP has to find a clear direction at first again, because Halo 4’s MP seemed to me like it was more without a clear course and not heading into any specific (right or wrong) direction.

I would rather see jetpack gone and hologram as another pickup piece of equipment, but if they were both spawned on the map and not with the player, & dropped on death if not used…I’d be happy with that.

~ Duck.

> Never was a big grenade thrower

in classics halo, grenades was 50% of player skill… the other 50% was the strafe… now, the skill is: SAW, extra-damange, jet pack, ecc…

it’s sad :frowning:

> > Never was a big grenade thrower
>
> in classics halo, grenades was 50% of player skill… the other 50% was the strafe… now, the skill is: SAW, extra-damange, jet pack, ecc…
>
> it’s sad :frowning:

Don’t forget Boltshot, Camo, and plasma grenade charges.

Though those don’t really work in the Proving Grounds playlist.

Halo 5 does not need to be a hybrid. It should be a “Halo” game; the arena based shooter that made it popular and beloved to begin with. The Halo universe is full of stories and characters that they can make more spin-offs out of like Reach and ODST. Those spin-offs can be the class/loadout based, AAs having, sprint using games. Leave the numbered titles to be real Halo games and create spin-offs like Reach and ODST for the casuals and those that prefer those class based games that wish to sprint around the map with a progression system.

Halo 5 should have Halo 2’s ranking system, an improved version of Forge and theater, spectator mode with directed cams (think DOTA 2), dedicated servers, skill based 1-50 ranking/match making along with social playlists just like what we had in Halo 3, and be an arena shooter. No load outs, no sprint, no AAs, no JIP outside of social games (while also being an option we can turn off for those of us that don’t want to participate in that JIP crap), no flinch, no PODs, weapons and power ups on the map, the return of “custom games” and a rich set of options, and none of the other Halo killing garbage that has been introduced.

> I mean, who would pick Hologram when you have Jetpack as an alternative?

I would

I would prefer the premise of Armour Abilities you collect off the map. This would allow balancing AA’s together to be unnecessary as they will no longer be designed to compete with one another, instead they just need to be balanced for gameplay.

Some AA’s would work similarly to past equipment, such as a returning Bubble Shield which works like Halo 3’s Bubble Shield, but regenerates it’s power over time to be reused. While others are simply AA’s the way we’ve known them, like Thrust or Jetpack.

As well, Active Camouflage should become one of the one-time-use powerups again. Which activate as soon as you pick them up and wear off with time.

> > I mean, who would pick Hologram when you have Jetpack as an alternative?
>
> I would

I don’t really like Jetpack as it attracts too much attention. I’m more of the stealth type.

> > Never was a big grenade thrower
>
> in classics halo, grenades was 50% of player skill… the other 50% was the strafe… now, the skill is: SAW, extra-damange, jet pack, ecc…
>
> it’s sad :frowning:

Yes, thankfully halo is orders of magnitude more skillful than it was back then. There is so much more to it than how well than you can aim a battle rifle or place a grenade, although still important skills. You need to be skilled with jetpack, securing a SAW, to name few as you have.

Like I have said before a bunch of times, I am a Halo fan for life and will support it, and I have liked each Halo game, except for Halo wars, not really into rts games. I kinda see why a lot of people hate Halo 4 and I would prefer them to stick with the original base and add minor stuff to it, because we all know that each Halo game has evolved from the past games, even to the point where a lot of people quit since Halo 2 because of all the changes Bungie made.

Heres where they can evolve Halo 4 style multiplayer and make it totally acceptable at the same time, in a sequel to Halo 3 odst. Buck and the gang have all evolved to Spartan 4s and they are receiving a lot of prototype technology that Masterchief doesn’t have, so for example lets say they have some type of magnetic boots that allow them to climb up walls, or sprint really fast, or other stuff. They can make it 64+player multiplayer. 343i doesn’t even have to make it, they can branch it off to another dev, like certain affinity or someone else like they did with Halo wars was with ensemble.

I am just going to repost my opinions an idea of AA:

AA:
AA like Halo 3 equipment should require skill to use it correctly, and users should be punished if used incorrectly.

Problem with having infinity use, that if used incorrectly, the user is not really punished, as long as they survive the encounter they can re-use it.

IMO, a much better idea is to have the most powerful AA, be single use (Just like H3 equipment), but the weaker AA, can have multiple uses. This I think is a great evolution step from H3 Equipment and a step forwards in blending AA/Equipment together.

AA/Equipment should be Map Pickups, to return Halo to an Arena Shooter. But should have the ability to also set these at spawn. For Action Sack and Custom Games.

And with Game Settings, you should be able to tweak how many times each AA/Equipment can be used. And have the possibility to set this to Infinity. And also have the power to change the time between uses. This would give you much power over each AA and how it could affect a game and be used.

Also the ability to enable to spawn with AA/Equipment would also be great for Custom games and some playlist like Action Sack. The more power we can have the better. And also allows 343 to make changes to a AA if is too powerful and uses need to be reduced or vice versa.

Why bother having abilities if there are only two, not to mention Hologram and Jetpack are nowhere near balanced with each other. There’s no point having armor abilities as a concept if you don’t even include a significant amount.

Anyways I’m not really all that against armor abilities as a concept. You don’t know what armor ability someone is going to pick. You also don’t know if they are going to take the left or right path, if they are going to strafe and jump or strafe and crouch, if they are going to nade and shoot or not, etc.

You don’t need to know every single little thing about the enemy to the point you are directly reading their thoughts. What’s important is your ability to react or do something about it. Perks are different as they are invisible buffs that you have literally no way of affecting. With a hologram you can take the bait or not, but if the enemy has an extra nade or reloads faster you simply can’t do anything about it.

That said, being able to have momentary godmode, being able to fly around the map, being able to heal yourself mid-combat, etc are all things that lower the skillgap and have no place being in the game.

> 3. implement a full-fledged class system and link an AA/equipment to a certain class.

Meh. If the only thing we let people choose is their AA we already have a minor class system.

> 1. remove them entirely from the MP and invest the time into different parts of it (i.e: maps)
>
> 2. incorporate some AAs into the design of certain maps or certain gametypes as inherent gameplay elements.

I’m perfectly fine with either of these solutions.

> I shiver at the though of going back to inherent resupply explosives and that’s that. Never was a big grenade thrower, I MUCH prefer swapping them out for a couple perks I do really like. It is simply a nerf to anyone who does not specifically like resupply explosives.

This is a pointless argument to make.

Why have a system that forces you to choose between grenades and faster reloading when the game could simply give you BOTH upon spawn? There’s nothing bad about character empowerment as long as it isn’t taken too far.

> they will no longer be designed to compete with one another,

They weren’t really designed to compete with one another to begin with.

What counters jetpack, auto sentry? As if.
Does camo hide you from promethean vision? Nope.

> > > Never was a big grenade thrower
> >
> > in classics halo, grenades was 50% of player skill… the other 50% was the strafe… now, the skill is: SAW, extra-damange, jet pack, ecc…
> >
> > it’s sad :frowning:
>
> Yes, thankfully halo is orders of magnitude more skillful than it was back then. There is so much more to it than how well than you can aim a battle rifle or place a grenade, although still important skills. You need to be skilled with jetpack, <mark>securing a SAW</mark>, to name few as you have.

Calling one down to your feet isn’t very skillful.

> > > > Never was a big grenade thrower
> > >
> > > in classics halo, grenades was 50% of player skill… the other 50% was the strafe… now, the skill is: SAW, extra-damange, jet pack, ecc…
> > >
> > > it’s sad :frowning:
> >
> > Yes, thankfully halo is orders of magnitude more skillful than it was back then. There is so much more to it than how well than you can aim a battle rifle or place a grenade, although still important skills. You need to be skilled with jetpack, <mark>securing a SAW</mark>, to name few as you have.
>
> Calling one down to your feet isn’t very skillful.

Cobra that’s like me dismissing beautiful piano music as “pounding a bunch of keys”.

First of all one must get the SAW in an ordnance, itself no trivial task. Numerous kills and assist need be obtained before a well deserved SAW is earned.

Once you have it you must now use it appropriately. You can’t be too agressive with it, as you run the risk of dying and handing it to your enemies, a very bad thing. You also can’t be too passive either because then the SAW is doing no good. A skillful balance must be struck. Also the SAW must be burst fired properly, something not immediately intuitive. This conserves ammo and increases damage.

There is much to being an effective SAW user.

> > > I mean, who would pick Hologram when you have Jetpack as an alternative?
> >
> > I would
>
> I don’t really like Jetpack as it attracts too much attention. I’m more of the stealth type.

A personal preference for Hologram is completely understandable but like Ramir3z77 already mentioned, Hologram’s and Jetpack’s effectiveness are standing in no relation to each other, what I was addressing and why I ask you why you picked exactly these two.

While Hologram only becomes an advantage when it was set off properly and the enemy falls for it, Jetpack allows you to freely move around the map, to gain an hight advantage, dodging explosives, etc.
So Hologram’s effectiveness/advantage in the game is firstly extremely limited and secondly solely depends on your enemies reaction while Jetpack gives you a constant and reliable advantage over your opponents.

> > 3. implement a full-fledged class system and link an AA/equipment to a certain class.
>
> Meh. If the only thing we let people choose is their AA we already have a minor class system.

True. But then their purpose would still only be being personal advantages for the players and they wouldn’t play any significant role within the game beyond that, in case you were implying a custom class system with AAs.

> You don’t need to know every single little thing about the enemy to the point you are directly reading their thoughts. What’s important is your ability to react or do something about it. Perks are different as they are invisible buffs that you have literally no way of affecting. With a hologram you can take the bait or not, but if the enemy has an extra nade or reloads faster you simply can’t do anything about it.
>
> That said, being able to have momentary godmode, being able to fly around the map, being able to heal yourself mid-combat, etc are all things that lower the skillgap and have no place being in the game.

I completely follow you here.

“Randomness” is in no way an issue in regards to AAs individually.
Though what personally always bothered me about the majority of them was their massive and constant impact on the game as advantages and that most of them turn the battle significantly into your favor by simply pushing the button.
Plus in Halo 4 you can easily lose the overlook. There are just too many of them as that you could fairly prepare yourself and make plans and eventually you end up reacting constantly.

> What’s important is your ability to react or do something about it.

If reaction is what’s important, than Fiesta is the true test of skill.

No; more important than reacting to your opponent is making moves that your opponent can’t react to. If I won because my opponent didn’t expect that I would go right instead of left:

  1. I considered the situation.
  2. I determined that he’ll probably expect me to go left, so I could surprise him if I went right.
  3. I was correct and my opponent did not expect that. I won the engagement due to an element of surprise that I created.

However, if I won because my opponent who has a Rocket Launcher didn’t expect that I could just Jet Pack over him:

  1. I considered the situation.
  2. I determined that my AA could save me.
  3. I was correct and my AA saved me from the rocket. I won the engagement due to an element of surprise that the game gave me.

Do you see the difference? In one instance, the player won because he planned and made his own surprise. In the other, the player was given an Element of Surprise button and just had to press it. The former requires more thought and experience.

This is why same starts is necessary. You can’t “make your own surprise” if your opponent has an unknowable advantage that may or may not nullify yours. You could always assume the worst–that everyone always has a better advantage–and play like that, but if the weapons and abilities truly are balanced (Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper…), then you would end up never using anything. For instance, if I assume everyone has a Jet Pack, I would never use the Rocket Launcher.

I realize Jet Pack is inherently game-breaking anyway, but I hope you see my point.