Halo 4 multiplayer is SO bad - Ordnance

Here’s why. Competition in its very essence is based upon rules and constraints being obeyed that generate a fair and equal playing field for both sides (all individuals) competing. Randomness introduced makes a farce of this competition.
Casuals like randomness, as it gives them more chance, and it can be fun. But I want serious competitive playlists.

Halo 4 MU experience ‘rules’ as such are poorly designed. The way the game feels, and handles itself is good, brilliant in fact, and to me feel like it should. The decisions based around the gameplay however, are appalling.

  • Ordnance introduces an element of randomness, that by it’s very definition can’t be fair. This distorts competition and leads to poor games - Power weapons random spawn gives a team (or player) a ‘lucky’ break, and can’t be included in a serious competitive setting. - The level-to-unlock system is less of a problem as desired weapons and ‘perks’ are unlocked quickly. But customisable loadouts are essentially ‘unfair’ and don’t help the competitiveness.

I have other complaints such as killcams, no ‘X’ after death (which reduces teamwork, thus competitiveness) and instant respawn. (I get killed by my victim far too often) but these are secondary issues to the joke that is multiplayer halo 4.

“Competition in its very essence is based upon rules and constraints being obeyed that generate a fair and equal playing field for both sides (all individuals) competing. Randomness introduced makes a farce of this competition.”

This seems to be the best way to describe the old Halo trilogy, and the reason why they were so good. Halo 4 is also the complete opposite so far, even more so than Reach.

Let’s hope 343 adds some good playlists with better settings, and keep the current playlists as they currently are. That way both sides can enjoy this game.

Your understanding of competition if flawed. The simple nature of people competing for victory inherently makes it competitive. Even mario kart, with all its randomness, is still competitive.

Having said that… i do think that the randomized ordinance drop is a bad idea. Simply because I want control.

dont be so quick to troll him he does have a valid argument if we keep blowing smoke up 343’s … then how will the game ever be the best it can be

Ordinance, random weapon drops, and instant respawns are cool…but shouldn’t be in every gametype.

I want a Team Slayer and Team Objective varient that has NO ordinance, NO instant respawns, and weapons are set on the map and respawn after a set time period.

The only thing I might be okay with is the indication that the weapon is there. When one team grabs a power weapon, only they know when it will exactly respawn. They can still use this knowledge to their advantage but I think it would be fair to let the other team know that the power weapon was grabbed again (as shown by the disappearing indicator) just so that the momementum carried by power weapons isn’t too great.

Couldn’t agree more. I feel that is not fair for one team to get all these great power weapons like a sniper for example while I’ll get a saw. Instant respawn is bad for 4v4 but will be ok for btb considering that the maps are larger. One other thing that bothers me is not getting knocked out of scope it makes it easier for people to get kills I can remember being in long range battles and winning some of them because I was able to keep the other player out of scope. Lets talk about when I shoot an enemy first and then they shoot me and my shot isn’t steady anymore because they shot me once I dont understand that at all I shoot first but die because aim goes crazy I really don’t like that at all.

> Your understanding of competition if flawed. The simple nature of people competing for victory inherently makes it competitive. Even mario kart, with all its randomness, is still competitive.
>
> Having said that… i do think that the randomized ordinance drop is a bad idea. Simply because I want control.

“Competitive” is a word with multiple purposes. While it definitely means something that is meant to be played to win, it can also mean how well suited something is for competition. In other words, how deep the skill set is. So no, his understanding is not flawed, he’s just using a different definition than you are used to.

343 just needs to make a playlist classic Halo style.

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Play pro and shut it.

>

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.

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Ignorant and stupid. You didn’t even read his post, did you?

He makes some valid points and all he asks for are more competitive playlists. Something you might never play, but a lot of other people really want this.

> …One other thing that bothers me is not getting knocked out of scope it makes it easier for people to get kills I can remember being in long range battles and winning some of them because I was able to keep the other player out of scope. Lets talk about when I shoot an enemy first and then they shoot me and my shot isn’t steady anymore because they shot me once I dont understand that at all I shoot first but die because aim goes crazy I really don’t like that at all.

Please don’t take this as a personal attack. I’ve seen this exact sentiment in several threads like this. Yours just happened to be the one in this thread, and that’s why I’m quoting you. No hard feelings.

This mentality doesn’t really make sense to me. Ok, so in your example, we’ve gone from being shot knocking you out of scope (with the intent of making it harder to hit your enemy while under fire.) to being shot knocking you out of aim (again, with the intent of making it harder to hit your enemy under fire.) So what we have here is a different mechanic with an, at least, similar effect on gameplay. Both require skill to overcome, neither is inherently more or less skilled than the other, just different skills. It’s different than what you’re used to, and that’s cool. However, that doesn’t instantly make it an invalid or “bad” mechanic. (I know, you didn’t implicitly say it was bad. Again, not directed at you per say, just using you as an example.)

What most people who don’t classify themselves as “competitive” see when they read posts like this is “I liked it better the way it was because I was better at it that way. It needs to go back to the way it was when I was better at the game.” To which the “competitive” guys get upset at the “casuals” and tell them they don’t know Halo and never actually liked Halo if they like any of the mechanics in Halo 4.

I think everyone needs to step back and forget the “competitive-ness.” Ask yourselves, is it really less skilled, or is it that you don’t have the easy win you once had in previous Halo games? Is it really that random power weapon drops are bad for the game, or is it that you don’t like the fact that you can’t reliably get that sniper rifle most of the time? It’s human nature to distrust and resist change, but ask yourself if it’s the change you dislike, or the simple fact that is was changed.

JoshJiggler I couldn’t agree with you more.

Too often I feel that the argument against change and the argument for a return to the old ways is that the person making the argument was better in the old ways.

Not to say there aren’t valid arguments to disliking random drops but to say it makes the game less competitive is a bit of a stretch. And I will have to disagree with the idea that a competitive game doesn’t have any randomness in it. Getting a lucky break is very much a part of a competitive game.

For example when a running back simply loses control of the ball in a football game or a lucky bounce in golf. In fact I would argue that most of the time it is the randomness that keeps competitive games alive and interesting. Its learning to beat a new system or being able to think on your toes.

I understand your concerns for the new mechanic but I’m not sure any of these new changes make the game unbalanced or less competitive, they just require a new type of strategy, and I personally am ok with that.

Side note I am pretty sure they will put a classic halo mode in soon, and there is always slayer pro.

> This mentality doesn’t really make sense to me. Ok, so in your example, we’ve gone from being shot knocking you out of scope (with the intent of making it harder to hit your enemy while under fire.) to being shot knocking you out of aim (again, with the intent of making it harder to hit your enemy under fire.) So what we have here is a different mechanic with an, at least, similar effect on gameplay. Both require skill to overcome, neither is inherently more or less skilled than the other, just different skills. It’s different than what you’re used to, and that’s cool. However, that doesn’t instantly make it an invalid or “bad” mechanic. (I know, you didn’t implicitly say it was bad. Again, not directed at you per say, just using you as an example.)

As a matter of fact, knocking your aim off is much less of a deterrent than knocking you out of scope. First of all, in general, it’s much more difficult to reset your aim when knocked out of scope, especially at long range or if you are just turning your reticule when it happens. More often than not, this forces skilled aim in direct encounters when both players are out of scope and therefore both players have a smaller target to shoot.

However, the most important difference comes when you have a sniper weapon against any other weapon. Not getting knocked out of scope makes snipers easier to use by an order of magnitude when you don’t have the danger of being forced to no-scope. Previously, a sniper would either be required to either pull a fast quick-scope or no-scope, making sniping more demanding. Now anyone can hard-scope with the sniper, even in direct encounters, making the weapon so much easier to use.

So yes, I do believe one is actually inherently less skilled as a mechanic. It should also be noted that getting knocked out of scope is a predictable mechanic whereas getting your aim randomly thrown around the screen is a random mechanic. Naturally, predictable mechanics are more skilled than ones that behave arbitrarily. Never should the game take control of the players aim in such an arbitrary fashion. In a well designed game, the player can control the game, but how can they when they aren’t even given full control over their aim?

> I think everyone needs to step back and forget the “competitive-ness.” Ask yourselves, is it really less skilled, <mark>or is it that you don’t have the easy win you once had in previous Halo games</mark>? Is it really that random power weapon drops are bad for the game, or is it that you don’t like the fact that you can’t reliably get that sniper rifle most of the time? It’s human nature to distrust and resist change, but ask yourself if it’s the change you dislike, or the simple fact that is was changed.

The highlighted part is probably the most common attempt at counter argument whenever someone says that a mechanic in halo 4 is bad. However, a matter of fact is, that’s nothing but an ad hominem argument, and therefore invalid to begin with. When you stop question people’s ability to adapt, something that is highly irrelevant to the subject at hand, you may want to try to come up with some actual counter arguments for their arguments.

> Too often I feel that the argument against change and the argument for a return to the old ways is that the person making the argument was better in the old ways.

But you see, that’s something you have no way of proving, nor does the opposition have no way of proving it wrong. If such arguments were the basis of all debates, no problems would ever get solved. For your arguments to be relevant, they need to concern the subject at hand and not the person behind the opposing argument.

> Not to say there aren’t valid arguments to disliking random drops but to say it makes the game less competitive is a bit of a stretch. And I will have to disagree with the idea that a competitive game doesn’t have any randomness in it. Getting a lucky break is very much a part of a competitive game.
>
> For example when a running back simply loses control of the ball in a football game or a lucky bounce in golf. In fact I would argue that most of the time it is the randomness that keeps competitive games alive and interesting. Its learning to beat a new system or being able to think on your toes.

As a matter of fact, randomness does make a game less competitive. The most predictable games are usually the ones that require the most skill. An example of such a game is arguably one of the most skillful games in the world: chess. In terms of mental skills, games like football and golf don’t even come near chess in competitiveness.

Now why do we accept some randomness in games? Why is it acceptable that a golfer hits a hole-in-one with their eyes closed? There are different types of randomness to games, one is the total unpredictability of basic mechanics. Such randomness is, for example, throwing a dice. It’s a purposely random part of the game that is integrated to the game’s mechanics for reason or another. Especially common in gambling where the fun is based around the idea of randomness, not skill.

Then there is micro randomness; randomness that isn’t an integral part of the game’s mechanics, but that just happens for reason or another. For example, getting a random stuck in Halo is micro randomness. It’s a byproduct of players’ ability to throw grenades and move wherever they want. We can’t prevent it, and I don’t think we even should because it happens so rarely that its effect on skill is negligible and it can be fun when it happens.

> I understand your concerns for the new mechanic but I’m not sure any of these new changes make the game unbalanced or less competitive, they just require a new type of strategy, and I personally am ok with that.

I am rather sure you already guessed which type of randomness the ordnance drops are. They are purposefully arbitrary and out of the players control. As the player can’t control them, they make that area of skill irrelevant, therefore making the game less competitive. As they are outside the player’s control, there is no real strategy to them, no real way to control them.

I don’t have a ton of time to reply to the whole message so i’ll try and go for the main point.

First off your points are correct the new “randomness” is completely out of the players control and thus doesn’t require skill. We are going have to disagree with whether this effects the game negatively or positively as I see it as a good thing that I don’t have an entire team camping around a weapon spawn or not playing because they are waiting for the sniper etc. etc.

You are absolutely correct though about the being kicked to scope argument. I feel it is a much better deterrent than the aim being knocked off. It makes sniping a little too easy which is quite annoying. Although i’m not sure that the aim knock is random, it seems to do the same thing every time for me which is just knock my aim up a bit (depending on the weapon). I Think it is something a skilled player can learn to overcome.

But I do feel that a persons in ability to adapt to change is quite relevant to the situation. Because the OP is complaining about this new change. It seems right to question whether or not this argument is valid or just the person whining because has to learn something new. Is this new change an actual flaw or just different?

I guess it boils down to how we view a “skilled” or “competitive” person. In my view a skilled person assess the situation and learns to play with what is given. It is more than just learning maps and spawn points and repetition though those are parts of it.

On a lighter note you argue quite well and its nice to see that.

> I think everyone needs to step back and forget the “competitive-ness.” Ask yourselves, is it really less skilled, or is it that you don’t have the easy win you once had in previous Halo games? Is it really that random power weapon drops are bad for the game, or is it that you don’t like the fact that you can’t reliably get that sniper rifle most of the time? It’s human nature to distrust and resist change, but ask yourself if it’s the change you dislike, or the simple fact that is was changed.

Yes, human nature, but this doesn’t make all arguments invalid against change like you’re trying to state. I know psychology and I’m pretty sure this thread has valid points and not invalid. This anyways suggests a playlist for players who want competitive, ranked playlist. Another could be for those who like the ordinances and such, Social playlist with less competitive gaming. This has been stated in many threads already and MLG community with the prizes of thousands of dollars from winning a game is the one suffering the most

> First off your points are correct the new “randomness” is completely out of the players control and thus doesn’t require skill. We are going have to disagree with whether this effects the game negatively or positively as I see it as a good thing that I don’t have <mark>an entire team camping around a weapon spawn or not playing because they are waiting for the sniper</mark> etc. etc.

That’s your exact problem there. Neither of those things should happen if players were given a straightforward and predictable weapon spawn system that always spawned the same weapon at the same location at the exact same interval. You see, when a player camps at a weapon/vehicle spawn, why do you think they are sitting there? Because they know when it will spawn there? No, because they don’t have the slightest of idea when it will spawn. If they knew when the weapon spawns, they would spend all that time doing other things.

Weapon spawn camping is caused by the randomness of the spawns, not by the lack of it. When a player knows the spawn location, but not the time, they will sit there until it spawns. And even though making the spawn points random, too, solves the issue, it also makes the game duller. Now, had 343i made the decision so that it would benefit everyone (or anyone to begin with), they would have made all weapon spawns static and made a countdown appear on every power weapon showing where the weapon will spawn thirty seconds before it spawned.

Such a decision would drastically have improved the flow of gameplay when players would be fighting over the weapon spawns, and would have made camping the spawns completely pointless to anyone. Additionally, it would have maintained power weapon control, a very important part of competitive gameplay, as part of the game, supporting both skilled and less skilled players equally. It would have been the perfect solution to your issue.

> Although i’m not sure that the aim knock is random, it seems to do the same thing every time for me which is just knock my aim up a bit (depending on the weapon). I Think it is something a skilled player can learn to overcome.

Well, with less powerful weapon it just knocks your reticule upwards a bit and can be countered fairly easily. However, the sniper rifle knock is so severe that it’s impossible to not get your aim knocked completely away. It’s a problem that applies to sniper versus other weapons more than anything.

> But I do feel that a persons in ability to adapt to change is quite relevant to the situation. Because the OP is complaining about this new change. It seems right to question whether or not this argument is valid or just the person whining because has to learn something new. Is this new change an actual flaw or just different?

I consider it irrelevant because it’s completely impossible to prove someone is incapable to adapt. Such accusations only drive the discussion away from the topic and to stat flaming. It’s a cheap way to try to avoid constructing an actual counter arguments to the points presented. It’s much better to prove a person’s argument wrong instead of just questioning it by presenting a personal attack.

Besides, the whole adaptation is just a double edged sword to begin with. It’s an obvious fact that a person better adapted to something can also better point the flaw in it. Anything new you get often feels great at first, but when the novelty wears off, you start noticing the problems. And the numerous debates I have had show that the people defending gameplay features most often don’t truly understand their impact on gameplay because they lack the experience. But ultimately, people’s judgement abilities are something I would rather not discuss because they it offers nothing to the discussion. It’s better to prove someone wrong by a good counter argument than resort to an ad hominem argument that you have absolutely no evidence for.

> I guess it boils down to how we view a “skilled” or “competitive” person. In my view a skilled person assess the situation and learns to play with what is given. It is more than just learning maps and spawn points and repetition though those are parts of it.

A skilled person in itself means nothing. Skilled compared to what? However, the better chances the player has winning a game (again, compared to other players), the more skilled they are. However, some games simply do allow space for more skill than others. Removing a feature, that creates more strategical depth, from the game makes the potential skill set smaller, meaning less space for skill. That in turn makes the skill differences between players smaller (someone was better at using that feature than someone else). When you add randomness or replace that removed feature with randomness, you give less skilled players the chance to get lucky from time to time, again, making the overall skill differences between players smaller. The ultimate example of this is coin flip. There is no skill gap because there is nothing to learn because it’s completely random. On the other end, there is chess with a very high skill gap because the game has zero randomness in the game mechanics. There is no other way to become more skilled than learning. If there is nothing to learn, there is no skill.

> On a lighter note you argue quite well and its nice to see that.

Yes, I have heard that before. It’s always nice to see people who aren’t deterred by my lengthy posts.

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Waaa waaa waaaa.
343 didn’t make a game specifically for me!!!
I think I know better than people who’s job it is to create games!!!
I just want the same game that I was good at so I can employ the same tactics and win rather than adapting and using actual skill and strategy rather than rote memorization of where weapons spawn!!!

Tell you what, if you want the game to be exactly as you want it to be why not make your own?

You spend a couple of million and 2 years crafting a game that you won’t moan about and I’ll give it a whirl

Not willing to do that?
Then shut your pie hole please

These whine threads about nothing are getting on my nips

This is probably the most accurate representation of the flaws of Halo 4’s multiplayer i’ve read.

I think that this, combined with the appalling map designs, excluding one or two, as well as weapons such as the boltshot being far too overpowered and cheap, makes for a shoddy multiplayer. I’d consider myself quite a seasoned player of halo, and I can safely say with no regret that the Halo 4 Multiplayer experience is the worst thing I’ve forced myself into. Sorry guys.

All that said, the campaign and spartan ops is spot on. Just completely re-think the Multiplayer and maybe stop trying to be more ‘consumer’ and appeal to the once-enormous fan-base the Halo games have raised, instead of forcing out many of the dedicated fans for new casuals.

> “Competition in its very essence is based upon rules and constraints being obeyed that generate a fair and equal playing field for both sides (all individuals) competing. Randomness introduced makes a farce of this competition.”
>
> This seems to be the best way to describe the old Halo trilogy, and the reason why they were so good. Halo 4 is also the complete opposite so far, even more so than Reach.
>
> Let’s hope 343 adds some good playlists with better settings, and keep the current playlists as they currently are. That way both sides can enjoy this game.

If only it was so simple.

A lot of sports do not have salary caps. Larger markets bring in more money and better players.

Nothing really fair about that…

But, Cest la vie…

I have seen too many players with an incineration canon but sniped in the head to really worry about drops.

There are balancing issues for sure… But ordinance adds a randomness that I like.

> Here’s why. Competition in its very essence is based upon rules and constraints being obeyed that generate a fair and equal playing field for both sides (all individuals) competing. Randomness introduced makes a farce of this competition.
> Casuals like randomness, as it gives them more chance, and it can be fun. But I want serious competitive playlists.
>
> Halo 4 MU experience ‘rules’ as such are poorly designed. The way the game feels, and handles itself is good, brilliant in fact, and to me feel like it should. The decisions based around the gameplay however, are appalling.
>
> - Ordnance introduces an element of randomness, that by it’s very definition can’t be fair. This distorts competition and leads to poor games - Power weapons random spawn gives a team (or player) a ‘lucky’ break, and can’t be included in a serious competitive setting. - The level-to-unlock system is less of a problem as desired weapons and ‘perks’ are unlocked quickly. But customisable loadouts are essentially ‘unfair’ and don’t help the competitiveness.
>
>
> I have other complaints such as killcams, no ‘X’ after death (which reduces teamwork, thus competitiveness) and instant respawn. (I get killed by my victim far too often) but these are secondary issues to the joke that is multiplayer halo 4.

Remove killcams entirely (since they’re not going to work properly anyway), the lack of the “X” mark is because of instant respawn, which I think should go. The custom loadouts, provided some rebalancing is done, aren’t too much of an issue. The main problems are your other points:

Personal Ordinance is too random and gives out far too powerful weapons occasionally. Keeping it random is okay, but remove the chance for upper-tier power weapons. Keep things like the Needler and railgun, as well as grenades, and possibly an overshield, while removing super-powerful power weapons like snipers and rockets as well as the damage boost.

Random ordinance drops should go entirely, besides one drop per map that spawns a very powerful weapon in a certain neutral location. This would force a team to control that spot at less predictable times (just like a 2 minute spawn timer, give or take 20 seconds), making it a popular control point. The rest NEED to be spawned using respawning initial ordinance.

I also agree that the core gameplay is fantastic, I’m glad that you addressed that, but there are too many things that get in its way.