I doubt it. 2. Notice how I said what Halo Infinite has to offer, not just the Multiplayer. Also that the Multiplayer is not - by any means - the entirety of the game.
December 8th.
To you, perhaps. To me it’s age was showing in 2010. Admiral Hood’s avocado face and elbows of death. Miranda’s stupid dialogue. Johnson’s sudden bald spot and Cortana’s weird chin. And the Gravemind’s laugh… dear gods that horrible, cheesy laugh.
Oh, but you’re probably only thinking of multiplayer. The Multiplayer with terrible Elite models that glitched headshots to not register. Terrible bullet speeds that made tracking an enemy a nightmare with severe latency issues. Equipment that was infuriating as all get out, hidden, and spammed to horrible effect. Map hacks, flag juggling (FLAG DROPPED FLAG TAKEN FLAG DROPPED FLAG TAKEN) and let’s not forget some of the most toxic lobbies ever that no one with a shred of decency or humility should yearn for again.
Oh yeah. What a time. Or maybe we were just all jacked up on Mountain Dew Gamer Fuel.
The graphics are more related to the hardware than the actual developers behind the software. Does anybody seriously believe that if Bungie made Halo 3 today it would look like it did in 2007? I mean you can believe that but my common sense tells me otherwise.
Did you just use a feature against Halo 3? Ouch.
Again, I know that this thread is mainly criticizing the omission of Forge/Co-op at launch. However, there are quite a few things that I feel Halo 3 did way back about 15 years ago that 343i seemingly haven’t been able to pull off since.
Dual-wielding
Theater
Flood (Halo Wars 2 doesn’t really count because it was done by another company)
Playable Elites (that have been begged/pleaded for I might add)
There are other things that people are already asking for from 5 like Firefight or Warzone, or all the different weapons/vehicles… Again, I wonder how much of these 6 years were spent on making the game great at release and how much was spent withholding things from customers to dripfeed to them down the line.
None of this is anywhere close to what I said. The first statement rings false, as both Halo 3 and Halo Reach are on the Xbox 360. Hell, even Halo 3: ODST had moderate improvement over Halo 3’s graphics, particularly with facial rendering and lipsynching. Additionally, that all of these titles were developed by Bungie obviously indicates that a Halo 3 made today by Bungie would look different; this still does not change or invalidate my statement that Halo 3 was showing it’s age in 2010. Reach was a marked improvement in graphics, design, and gameplay compared to it’s three-year-old predecessor.
No. The gap in the neck of an Elite model (which did not register headshots) is not a “feature”. It’s a flaw in the hitbox build.
Dual wielding, while possible, hasn’t been implemented since Halo 3: ODST when it was scrapped. The fad offered far more issues and drawbacks than it did benefit the player.
Theater has worked just fine in Multiplayer, Forge, and Wargames. So saying that they cannot “pull it off” is incorrect. To be fair it has been absent in the Campaigns of Halo 4 and Halo 5, of which I hope to see a return.
The Flood has not had a place canonically in the FPS Campaign since Halo 3. Regardless, 343i introduced Spartan Combat Forms in Infection gametypes for Halo 4, as well as Flood modes in Halo: Spartan Assault. The Flood also feature prominently in Fireteam Raven, and while you discount it because Creative Assembly had a hand in Halo Wars 2, you are omitting that 343i was also a developer of the game. Additionally, 343i has greatly expanded the known lore on the Flood, so I dare say that they’ve done the Flood better than Bungie did.
Halo 2 Anniversary has playable Elites. Yes, this does count as it is a different build from Halo 2 and features new models. Clearly 343i can implement playable Elites (despite the preceding claim that these four features 343i hasn’t been able to “pull off”), and yes, this has been something “begged” for in every Halo title since Reach. However, clearly there isn’t a great enough drive for this to where it would warrant allocation of resources and design.
And as of yet we have zero information on this. So it’s equally flawed to assume that just because we haven’t seen it, it’s not in the game. Patience.
I’m pretty much in total agreement with you, I fail to see the sense in much of their arguments and they aren’t internally consistent in my understanding.
But just to point it out incase its used as a rebutle.
Certain Affinity did H2AMP in the H4 engine.
Certain Affinity were also instrumental in the H3 mp.
Max remained UX lead after founding CA, his leadership of more modes and options is essentially the defining feature of H3mp and what set it apart from other mp suites.
Hope ye can come to some sort of civil conclusive end to this debate. But if its going nowhere, agree to disagree.
Might help if op presented a concrete reduction on their intended argument in clear concise points because I still see it as being a tab nebulous and shifting in response to the replies.
Perhaps an amendment is required?
Not to pick other fights (though I don’t think any of this has been fighting, per se), with this specifically, I’m finding that Certain Affinity helped with the Halo 2 Anniversary remastered multiplayer, but no further context is given. Map design seems to be a common trend in projects where Certain Affinity are included, so that could have been the extent of their inclusion, as it was with various map packs in the Halo series (the Blastacular pack for Halo 2, the Defiant and Anniversary map packs for Halo Reach, Forge maps, and the Majestic, Castle, and Bullseye map packs for Halo 4).
As well they’re assisting in Infinite’s multiplayer, although to note I don’t see them having any sourced involvement in Halo 3, or any of it’s map packs.
No worries, I don’t think anyone has come here to argue.
In multiple panels and videos max talks about H2Amp.
I dont have the time to go finding and clipping sources but a good starting point is the ign first coverage prior to mccs launch.
There max talks about his choices, maps, the interactive elements, changes he decided to make to sandbox balance, names an artist that did the bulk of the work, on shrine and other maps I believe. Essentially paints a clear understanding that he was lead on the mp and CA did much of the work if not all. He goes into forge choices and other things.
Its pretty much confirmed most of 343i were on H5G if you listen to enough of the interviews sabre did most of h2A campaign for example. Sorry I can’t give you links but its easy to find.
On the topic of CA and the halo 4 engine, I’m 90% sure the map abandoned was them also in h4 and they did a fair amount of the work on h4mp maps. The CA website also says all client side/progression and core work on H2A was handled by them i believe. Granted I’m working off of memory here. I tend to follow them closely as its my dream employer.
Max founded CA in 06 and a chunck of the day one staff were people he brought with him from the halo3 mp team
when he left with some midway and red storm people iirc. He has spoken about this before and you should find it easy enough if you want to look for it.
So I should clarify thats what I meant the CA staff did tonnes of the work on halo3 mp.
The design doc for it was essentially things cut from halo 2.
He touched on this again recently on Halo2Artifacts when talking to bravo.
Check that out on Spotify my friend.
He was the initial online, ux, ui and mp lead for the game (halo3) credited as special thanks in the release build iirc.
Bungie was sort of a mess after halo 2s doomed dev cycle people were burnt lots of upper management went on hiatus or left.
Max was around for most of halo3s production.
They did the h2 blastaculer nealry immediately and then I believe went and did age of booty.
A great little rts game.
Pretty sure they were doing some stuff for world at wars mp and L4D at the same time.
They returned to the halo franchise with work on the OG waypoint and were the main team for CEAMP and the defiant mp pack.
Apologies for not being clearer.
Please correct me if I am mistaken on any of this but I’m pretty damn confident I’m at least 90% correct.
Despite its flaws, Halo 3 is still my favorite Halo. Not just because of the gameplay, but because of how content-rich it was. Out of the box, it gave us Theater, Forge, and the File Share. These things changed Halo forever. It gave rise of the golden age of Halo machinima, which my friends and I consumed a lot of back in the day. Custom games were king, with everyone sharing some new map and game mode they either made or found on another’s file share. The community really did seem to be at its height back then.
I think Infinite is good with its starting gameplay. I’m looking forward to a promising campaign. But, I do think it’ll be hindered by what it’ll lack at launch (Forge, campaign co-op) and some questionable design choices (challenge-only exp, armor coatings). The lack of these features at launch will hurt the early game, which is so crucial for its long-term success. Does Infinite have the potential to be better than Halo 3? Yes. Will it? We’ll have to see. Hope they get Forge out sooner, rather than later.
OP is absolutely right. Almost everything has been shown off already in regards to multiplayer. Now thats not to say that they don’t have some new things being planned out for the weeks following launch, but mostly everything has been shown off. And interestingly enough (with the way 343 is treating infinite as a live service model) the multiplayer is the whole game, at least for a big chunk of the community.
Now this may seem obvious but much of what you’ve just listed is just personal gripes with the series. Did it ever urk you that Keyes didn’t have a sidearm loaded while under attack from the covenant? Or when cortana told us that the cave was not a natural formation? Or when the heretic leader attack the arbiter for no reason?
Halo has always had wierd story tropes and on top of that has always been a little cheesy, this is nothing new.
Multiplayer-wise, it is even harder to crack on halo 3 as it has some of the most balanced sandbox in the series. Everything you mentioned was more or less because of rushed development (which is by no means an excuse on bungies behalf, they are just as culpable) or minor issues with the game. Minus the netcode I will give you that, once I got to reach I couldn’t go back and play halo 3 at times because of just how distracting it was.
But consider the complete package of halo 3: A full length campaign with high replayability value, great graphics for the time, excellent multiplayer, co op campaign, brand new feature called theater, another brand new feature called forge, customizable spartan/elites, 16 player custom games, and the list goes on.
All of this on DAY ONE, with ZERO microtransactions, on OLD hardware. Halo 3 set the bar for what all subsequent halo titles should look like and reach followed suit with an even better forge, custom games, and theater. It’s no wonder the game gets such praise, it broke all established gaming trends and set new ones 13 years ago.
Today what do we get? 343 following gaming trends, following art styles, removing tried and true features (elites, dual wielding, armor coatings, seriously wtf?), following monotization tactics, etc. And this is all in the modern gaming era.
I hate to feel so negatively about a game that is clearly trying to call back to those times but there are just too many red flags to ignore. And even worse, it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve let the fans down. I mean, is it really that hard to believe that a finished product on day one can succeed? Sigh
You give an example from Halo: Combat Evolved, yet… I’m talking about Halo 3?
Keyes was a Captain of the ship surrounded by armed Marines and security personnel. If any Covenant made it to the bridge, there would be absolutely nothing that he or his sidearm would be able to do to stop them.
No, Cortana’s musing observations of Halo’s ecosystem never really bothered me.
Sesa 'Refumee attacked Thel while the later was distracted because he doubted the Left Hand of the Hierarchs would listen to reason, and knew that as Arbiter he would quite likely be resolute in completing his task of killing 'Refumee. Better to die a warrior, at the hands of the Arbiter, rather than become a playtoy for the Hierarchs.
But I’m not talking about weird tropes and cheesy lines in my criticisms of Halo 3. John’s one-liners are cheesy, but not overbearing. Even in Halo 3 he’s got some good ones. But really; “To war”? Terrible. And Cortana’s “You had something nObOdY eLsE hAd: It’s luck lol.” Equally atrocious.
Are there any stats to back that up. Factual data, mind you, not an MLG talking head drumming up nostalgia. Reasonably speaking, a “rushed development” that faults the Elite hitboxes would also affect weapon balancing, and I absolutely remember updates and post-publishing balances being rolled out. I significantly doubt that Halo 3 was the “most balanced in the series”.
Yes, marvelous. Claps all around. It was still showing it’s age in 2010.
Reach absolutely did not follow suite with Halo 3. The art style took a different direction (criticized at the time), Armor Abilities replaced Equipment and is still contentious (it was worse back then), and the campaign didn’t even include the Chief (no, an Easter Egg appearance doesn’t count).
Yes, and all of those are absolutely common in the modern gaming era. Let’s bullet point these.
Following gaming trends. What exactly do you think dual wielding, vehicle boarding, equipment, armor abilities, armor effects, etc were? Trends.
Following art styles. Not really. Every game has had it’s own unique art style, and there isn’t a trend in style to chase. Borderlands has cellshading. Battlefield and Call of Duty have modern realism. Fortnite has a cartoonish style… This is, frankly, just a nonsensical criticism.
“Tried and True” features… Elites have always been a splitting feature. They were fine in 2. Elites in 3 literally broke the level playing field. Elites in Reach did about the same as they were physically larger than Spartans.
Dual Wielding? It’s literally been in only two games. It presented far more downsides than it did provide opportunities.
Armor coatings I am reserved on, but I will give to you that they are confusing. Still, it is not that much different than other systems that we’ve had to edit armor colors. It really isn’t.
Monetization? That’s what happens with a Free to Play multiplayer model. Don’t like it? Don’t buy it. It’s literally as simple as that, and this myth that game developers are somehow not a business designed to make money with their product is just… ridiculous.
Not sure if we’re supposed to talk about this on the forums but the leaks have more or less confirmed everything… Not sure where you came up with the idea that only 5 percent of the game was shown regardless of the fact.
Yes, and?
Surely if you had a problem with all of those quirks in Halo 3, then you must have had issues with those lines in prior games. Halo 3 was not the only cheesy game. Why do I have to explain this?
Are there any stats to back that up. Factual data, mind you, not an MLG talking head drumming up nostalgia. Reasonably speaking, a “rushed development” that faults the Elite hitboxes would also affect weapon balancing, and I absolutely remember updates and post-publishing balances being rolled out. I significantly doubt that Halo 3 was the “most balanced in the series”.
Any “stats” would waver on what either of our definition of balanced is. So ill say this much (which i’ve already said btw, this is only for further clarification): Halo 3 is the most well rounded game in terms of sandbox multiplayer bar halo 5. Taking a good look at halo 3’s weapons will show you exactly what I mean, each weapon has a select purpose when you take a good look at them. Something funny about the halo 3 sandbox is that all weapons “feel” like garbage, thus making them balances. Ar feels like shit? That’s because its meant to be an easy weapon to use that requires low skill thus it gives low reward. Magnum feel like shit? That’s because it is a sidearm meant to clean up kills rather than reap them. Plasma rifle feels like shit? Thats because its meant to take out shields, not outright massacre the player. Not at all saying Halo 3’s sandbox was perfect, but it was balanced.
No it really wasn’t… Halo 3 holds up fine to this day. Especially in regards to lighting. And take a good look at what you just said, “showing it’s age in 2010”. When did halo 3 release again? Oh right in 2007. The only game I can think of that looked good in 2007 and still does in crysis 1. Games like dead space, gears of war, cod, all looked like garbage back then yet we don’t criticize them because it was fine for the time. I’m still rather stunned that this is really a discussion.
Reach absolutely did not follow suite with Halo 3. The art style took a different direction (criticized at the time), Armor Abilities replaced Equipment and is still contentious (it was worse back then), and the campaign didn’t even include the Chief (no, an Easter Egg appearance doesn’t count).
You missed my point entirely. Reach followed up by pushing the series forward in innovation, not in art style or story. That was never the discussion. It brought forward and improved every single new mode in halo 3 (for the most part) and even included some new ones.
Um, I know they’re common…That’s the where the whole “they’re following trends instead of setting them” came from.
Name to me an FPS game with all of those features, tip: you can’t. Halo was the first, and for a time, the only game to have such an extensive list on console bar none. It brought a whole, cohesive package to the gaming scene and that is what separated it from the rest.
Absolutely not. 343 tried to make halo call of duty multiple times, them changing the art style to resemble a more realistic/futuristic setting was done on purpose to distinguish their halo from bungie’s and it wasn’t until now that they tightened up and thankfully so.
Elites were only a problem in halo 3 due to their hitbox. This issue did not exist in halo 2, halo 2 anniversary, or reach. So out of the 4 games you have listed, they haven’t worked once. 343 proved it was possible (as if bungie didn’t already) in halo 2 anniversary, there is no excuse for their exclusion aside from they don’t see it as a necessity.
Dual wielding has been in 3 games, why do people always leave out halo 2 anniversary? And it has worked perfectly fine in all minus halo 2. Again, it is just too difficult for 343 it seems.
Regardless of whether or not it’s not different, it’s another feature stripped from us in order for them to make money. Simple really.
Aaaaaaan we’re back at the root of the problem. 343 (or microsoft) doesn’t believe that a traditional halo experience could rake in the big bucks in today’s market, hence these drastic decisions they’ve been needing to make. I understand why, but that doesn’t make it sensible
Halo 3’s story is terrible it is easily the worse written in the franchise the campaign is just held up by cool set pieces. Anyone that wants halo to just clone Halo 3 wants Halo to fail. Halo 3 was only in the position it was due to the climate of the internet and esports at the time. remove your rose tinted glasses.
Also hate to break it to you but for the vast majority of modern players Halo 3 is the most disliked.
Easily the most infuriating thing about 343i isn’t even their incompetence (as I and others have ridiculed for years) its their ego and their willingness to ‘subvert’ Halo. They looked at Halo 3 and thought that was a dinosaur, a relic of a bygone era, they seriously believed that they could make a superior Halo game compared to all the ones prior… I don’t know if I want to congratulate them for having testicles the size of Grifballs or if I want to strangle them for spitting on long term fans over the years.
I can forgive them for being less capable than Bungie were, it makes sense that the creators of Halo were better at making Halo games, but what I can’t forgive is their extremely stupid priorities. Could you imagine how nuts it would’ve been if Infinite had came out with a fantastic Forge mode at launch? Think about it. Millions of people that maybe never touched Forge before would now be a part of the creative ethos of Halo and that alone could fuel Custom Games/map creation/competitive play for years to come. I personally don’t find the lack of Co-op as impactful but will it cost it in terms of initial reviews? Oh you can bet your Warthog it’ll be widely shunned by most reviewers and if they dare not bring it up the review will get negged for not being holistic in its criticisms.
I don’t know if I’ve stated this but I’m immensely hyped for Infinite, had an absolute blast in the Flight, so I’m overall really looking forward to it, but it has some glaring issues that just punch fans in the gut.
I estimated. And because I don’t consider Multiplayer to be the entirety of the game. And I’d wager that you’re not suppose to discuss leaks, whatever they might be.
Not quirks, flat-out terrible lines and aged graphics. “To war” is not a “quirky” line or a snappy one-liner, it’s a flat-out terrible piece of dialogue incomparable to anything else. John-117 telling Cortana “Figured I’d try shooting my way out. Mix things up a little,”? That was cheesy and funny. Appropriate for the tone of the series. Cortana replying “Just keep your head down; there’s two of us in here, remember?” Cheesy and heartwarming. A solid call back to the first game.
Talking about Luck like it’s a superpower? Not so much.
So that’s a “no” on verifiable statistics on balance.
Well then I guess Halo 3’s not the “most well rounded” if there’s a bar in there. And it’s somewhat… well, “ridiculous” is the only word that comes to mind - that your metric of balance is “all the weapons are terrible, so it’s balanced.” Quite a low bar, there, and not in a flattering light.
Nostalgia’s a hell of a filter, I guess. The lighting is one of the worst things about the game, and is directly responsible for the absolute clash between armor pieces that look like brushed aluminium and flesh that looks like matte plastic.
Firstly, Reach absolutely pushed forward with the art style and story. Only a fool would blatantly deny this observable fact. Secondly, as Halo Reach “pushed forward” from Halo 3, it did not follow suite with Halo 3. Halo 3 changed very little from Halo 2, really only adding equipment to the mix. The mechanical changes from those two games was very minimal and stagnant, the artwork was a more polished continuation of the same, and the storyline really only served as a Halo 2: Part 2. Especially when you know the behind-the-scenes development of the two. If Halo Reach had followed suite with Halo 3, it would have been further stagnation and more of the same.
Numbered replies.
If you’re going with the slanted metric of all at once, perhaps. This conglomeration of trends doesn’t make for an exception in trend-chasing. Nonetheless, games with those features include: Call of Duty, Wolfenstein, Tomb Raider, Counterstrike, Read Dead Redemption, Max Payne, The Darkness, Borderlands, Rainbow Six, Battlefield.…
And the lines blur… “Halo is Call of Duty” was ever a criticism for Sprint and loadouts in matchmaking. But now it’s the art style… cool. Never mind that nothing about Halo 4’s art style is even remotely indicative of Call of Duty’s art style. This is just plainly ridiculous. And you know, what’s truly funny is that I remember this being a big dig thrown at Halo Reach. A Bungie title.
Elites being larger than Spartan models and having a different movement speed absolutely presented problems for players. Larger targets are more easy to be seen, and uneven movement speeds leads to an uneven engagement rate. But nail on the head for Elites being excluded because it’s not a necessity; it’s not really a high-demand feature when the entirety of the Community is considered.
Why do people leave out Halo 2 Anniversary? Because it’s not really a separate game. It’s an Anniversary remaster of Halo 2. Dual wielding has been in two games. And again, it’s just not a popular feature. Slanting it as “too difficult for 343i” shows clear bias, especially if you’re going to also try and consider Halo 2 Anniversary as a wholly separate game, which would also place it as a 343i title. Clearly not “too difficult” for them, if that’s the case.
And again, that is what Free-To-Play necessitates. And yet, we’ve received nothing but vapid speculation that we’ll have to “pay for colors”, and we saw a decent selection of basic color schemes made available by default, so this is really an insubstantial non-constructive criticism.
I think you’re missing - intentionally or not - the matter of a Free-to-Play model. Money has to come from somewhere, and if people who view Multiplayer as the entirety of the game do nothing but download that free gamemode, well… that’s poor business. Again, if you don’t want to spend money on it, don’t.
Caught this late, but this has been given some answer, at least, in “Halo: Divine Wind”:
Truth knew that the Halo Array was a weapon, and would wipe out all sentient life in the galaxy. He played up the Religious aspect of that for his necessary pawns, but once there was no more threat to his plan from within he didn’t really care anymore. He did believe that he would become a “god”, and planned to attain this by wiping out all life in the Galaxy, and then remaking the Galaxy in the image of the San’Shyuum with his loyal followers who had been kept safe from the “coming fire” in Shield Worlds and on the Ark. Flotillas of San’Shyuum escaped from High Charity during the chaos and distraction of the Great Schism.
Credit to 343 Industries for going back to patch up that glaring contradiction in character, and give reason to the apparent madness.
Oh right in 2007. The only game I can think of that looked good in 2007 and still does in crysis 1. Games like dead space, gears of war, cod, all looked like garbage back then yet we don’t criticize them because it was fine for the time. I’m still rather stunned that this is really a discussion.