Bungie was heavily criticized for their lack of maps at launch too. I believe they always have been consistent on map count from HCE’s as well. But, H2 and HCE worked well with 4v4s on large maps, cause of the M6D and BR. H3, not so much. So, splitting large maps for exclusive BTB maps made it seem like less maps. However, adding in SMG or AR starts made this split even more apparent, making it seem like less maps.
Infinite has AR starts mostly, so this split is there and makes it seem like less maps. Plus, the large maps are LARGE, making them exclusive to BTB. So, it’s a problem more so, I’d say.
Anyway, the lack of content has been criticism of Halo since the beginning and will always be a criticism. Bungie even were criticized how new maps were introduced as DLC and deployed to the fanbase.
But, anyway, that is what I have observed over the years.
By Halo 3, they also had a fairly consistent production. I know the community ultimately decided “no, we don’t want to pay for map packs (we’d rather buy cat ears for the same price)”, but they had 3 new maps available after just 11 weeks.
343 doesn’t seem close to having one new map available by the 11 week mark, let alone 3.
A. The amount of time they worked on the game
B. Just how mediocre some of the maps feel and how some are just awful on certain game modes (behemoth is an awful map for fiesta and swat)
C. Some of these maps just don’t feel like halo. I like bazar but it feels like dust or a cod map.
D. The BTB maps just aren’t good whether is be lanes or vehicle/ placement.
I get we’ll be getting more maps but these maps are just boring. Except streets that map kicks -Yoink!-
Only having 7/3 maps is compounded by only having Slayer, Oddball, CTF, and Strongholds (+ Stockpile in BTB). If we could also play KotH, Assault, Zombies, and VIP/Jug, those 7/3 maps wouldn’t feel so stale already.
DO NOT start with “we have fiesta, and swat too!!” – no, those are just a spin off of slayer. They are the same thing as slayer.
Even ignoring the huge amount of time 343 has to develop it, Halo 3 had 4 player co-op(with scoring), Forge(basic forge still better than no Forge), more gametypes, more custom game options, campaign theater, playable Elites, vehicles weren’t trash, more playlists, better ranked implementation oh and basic color customization wasn’t being monetized.
Halo 3 had content and its “core” is still better than Infinites despite its own flaws.
Halo 3 also wasn’t plagued by predatory monetization, 10 bucks for 3 maps feels incredibly quaint when they are currently charging 10+ dollars for the color blue and various other cosmetic nic nacks. Map packs themselves were reach to begin with but anyone pretending that the monetization situation is better now is deluding themselves.
Points 1 and 3 don’t count, as they were only a factor because the game had already been delayed.
Infinite was supposed to launch on XBone, long before the SeXbox was even unveiled, which also would have put it before the pandemic ever happend. It only ran into these issues because of the botched development.
Point 2 is also dubious at best, as there is no objective way to gauge if the engine rewrites between H5G and Infinite were more or less substantial than between, say, Halo 3 and Reach.
As Primus has already mentioned: “It could be worse” is not an argument and to paraphrase Alex from the Angry Joe Show: “Getting F’d in the A just a little bit is still not an acceptable outcome”.
Do you believe that they only finished 10 maps at launch? I personally suspect that they had more work done, but decided to hold it back. 10 maps is so cookie cutter that I feel there is a decent chance they have a map or two already done and are just waiting to release it.
I don’t feel like you’re comparing apples to apples here. Halo 2 and 3 maps are great maps. They all feel unique and they are all mostly iconic at this point. Infinite maps with the exception of Behemoth, are all boring and feel more like a COD maps. It feels like less because the quality of the maps is less.
People gloss over all the forgettable and/or badly designed maps and bring up like a handful of the best maps from each game. I honestly take offense to this because CE had better maps (launch wise) than 2 or 3, it also had more.
Infinite maps are extremely generic for Halo, nothing crazy or interesting design wise. Now one could argue that they are the best launch maps we’ve seen since Halo 3 (Reach had horrible maps, 4 had horrible maps, 5 had a few bangers) so they do their job effectively.
If you think Behemoth is Infinite’s best map it just tells me you are a casual player. Behemoth/Launch Site are clearly the two weakest maps in the game, they break the whole “these maps are generic” argument a good deal but I just think the issue is that these maps are too large to work in a 4v4 environment.
It feels like less because Infinite has few modes or gametypes to play around with. No Snipers, No Infection, No Forge, no shoes, no shirts, no service.
People forget that Reach MM had like 95% forge maps, the game overall had some horrendous maps, it worked out because it had a good Forge mode that it could rely on to carry the burden.
I haven’t gone through every post so bare with me if those things have been discussed to death already.
It’s not just the quantity of the maps. I have no issue with just 10 map but those maps have to be good enough.
In case of HI most maps don’t have interesting/unique gameplay nor do they have interesting/unique design.
Just look at them.
3 BtB maps could be fine but they all look really similar and don’t have unique features/concepts. They are all somewhat balanced but boring, just look at H3s BtB capable maps. Valhalla is fairly simple, two bases in a canyon but the design is unique among the other maps. Sandtrap features this huge ruin complex in a desert. Again unique setting/concept, unique visuals. Last resort has once again a unique setting with its highly asymmetrical Lay-out and a unique design. HI on the other hand is three times Valhalla with differently shaped canyons and some variing bases that are copy pasted from SP for the most part.
4v4 maps have the same issue. They are all UNSC based maps with a similar UNSC/industrial/white walls-designs (at least Aquaris, Live Fire and Recharge) and no unique/interesting concept (except Live Fire to some degree). The maps feel like a bunch of shoeboxes stuck together or connect through corridors. Now compare that to maps like Guardian, Narrows, Construct and so on. These maps had a clear and unique vision which made them feel a lot more interesting then HIs maps.
The only exception is Behemoth, that maps looks amazing but gameplay sucks, at least ranked.
I get it some people like to defend 343 whatever the cause but this sentiment drives me crazy. I don’t need to be able to design interesting maps, that’s why I’m the customer and not the one getting paid. I cannot perform surgery but if I happen to be in the bad position in which I need surgery, I have every right to expect the surgeon to know what he/she is doing. It’s their job just as it’s a job to create maps for a video game.
You’re looking at this issue quite one sided: yes expectations are higher now but it’s not like they are still using the same tools as 20 years ago (and if they do, it’s on them/on the management) and I’d assume that studio size has increased as well.
I just have to stop you here, because CE maps were terrible mostly. The only reason why they worked ok was because of Pro variants that had M6D starts had you start off with a weapon very effective at overcoming and hiding the maps’ flaws.
CE also had 13 maps, which is still impressive considering, the sequels had less at launch.
I’m also talking the original CE, not the unpopular PC or MCC versions.
Now if we are valuing maps based on originality/creativity then CE clearly has the best maps in franchise history, but I could see the argument that 2/3 had superiior maps competitively speaking
The reason was because Bungie knew they could just charge players for more maps via DLC (map packs in other words)
Infinite was never given an official 2019 release date at any point in development to my knowledge, but I guess I could be wrong. I’m also pretty sure Infinite started targeting the Series consoles release date a long time ago though, which would have been an internal 2020 release date for a long long time (pandemc still would have been an issue).
You’ve been biased on these forums against anything 343 has done for years imo, so we can agree to disagree because we’ll probably never find common ground.
I feel like you’re taking this all a little too seriously. Like calling me a “casual player” is some kind of derogatory comment. It’s just a game guy, you know, for fun.
There is nothing wrong with being a casual player, but lets call a spade a spade. Behemoth is basically a Halo 4 map, looks cool, plays like crap and is meant for casual play.
Like to put this into perspective, I think Launch Site could become the best Infection map in Halo history, that map would dope af for it. Yet it would be insane to argue that Launch Site is a good map, its simply too large for 4v4 in its current form (they’d have to cut it in half to be viable, even then would still play bad)
Not every map is good for competitive play. Lots of maps succeed in customs with odd gametypes but are horrendous for MM.
As if the development argument is an excuse. You cant compare the dev time for those games to current ones. New tech brought in “faster” things yes, but also new bugs and difficulties. It’s like boomer parents saying why can’t you afford a home?
Part of the difference is that the maplists felt bigger thanks to many maps being compatibile with both 4v4 and BTB.
Since BTB has such a huge player count now, and it’s maps need to be so large. Fragmentation is the new Valhalla analogue, but unlike Valhalla it can’t be used as a reasonably sized 4v4 map. And Behemoth is too small to be used as a BTB map.
Looking at it that way, Infinite has 7 4v4 maps, and 3 btb maps. But Halo 2 has 8-9 4v4 maps and 6 BTB maps. And Halo 3 has 10 4v4 maps, though it also only had 3 BTB maps.
They sacrificed balance and core gameplay for variety in map selection. I wouldn’t say they were that creative, though. The maps were simple, which was a good thing, by the way. But, my main point anyway, is that the (accidental) gameplay design provided by simply starting with the M6D made all the maps play the way they did. - there’s a reason why Coagulation was designed differently, and wasn’t as good as Blood Gulch. Was it cause Blood Gulch was so great, or was it because the M6D made the map playable, or was it even that CE Vehicle balance and physics made the map fun to play. (Imagine how bad Blood Gulch would be with Halo 2’s Vehicle spawn and fighting mechanics, haha)
My brain is a little dusty, but I don’t remember btb maps being used as 4v4 maps. I don’t recall 4v4 on Valhalla, or Zanzibar or Sandtrap unless we are talking custom games.
