Halo 2 & 3 only had 11 maps at launch, is Infinite having 10 really that bad?

Games Halo Infinite
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All of this is speculation. Quite literally through and through.

What isn’t hidden is the fact that microsoft is capable. An insane budget doesn’t have to be the money 343 got for the game. It can be the sheer vast of opportunity to work with the best tech in the world.

Not only that but you have a big team and their oversight. They are more than capable of creating. More than capable to fund 343.

Every angle anyone has ever come at this point is speculation. From the exact number they have to work with. Who’s actually working on the game and when.

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This is nowhere near as simple you make it out to be. Most of the maps in Halo’s history are from decades ago, very different porting process compared to CoD which pretty much releases the same game every year (CoD is closest to sports games basically)

Besides… no reason to believe that most of the older maps would actually be good for Infinite. It is reasonable to think that the Halo 5 maps would work fine, but most of the previous maps were not designed to accommodate more movement options and new equipment and so on.

They are better off just finishing Forge for goodness sakes, that way community can just create all the remakes themselves and they can get more creative with maps going forward.

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Thought I’d answer OP here…

The map count is worthless/meaningless. It feels far far worse than it did with other Halo’s because the game lacks so much stuff. Lack of Modes, Lack of Forge, Lack of a good custom games option, and so on.

Although yes Halo games do launch with the same number as Infinite the reality is that you had far more (especially with 3/Reach, even 4) at launch you play around with and really make the maps feel unique and interesting for longer periods of time.

This so called problem is something else entirely is what I’m getting at. Infinite could have had 20 maps at launch and it would still leave fans wanting more. Once Forge rolls around a lot of this talk will move on to “why aren’t they putting so and so Forge map into MM?” or “we need this or that for Forge, please 343i”

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Expectations.

It’s been six years since the last Halo game. People expected it to be in a more complete state than Halo 5.

Also, most of those maps are small 4v4 slayer maps. If you only play BTB that’s quite limiting. CoD or Battlefield have those bigger maps with greater combat variety as a result. I mean, Battlefield 2042 is truly broken and EA robbed me; but still. :smile:

CoD and Battlefield do also have other modes like Battle Royale, Zombies, Portal; they don’t just offer their arena mode.

There’s too many UNSC Industrial Maps. You won’t feel as if there’s that many maps if they aren’t visually distinct or particularly interesting.

So on paper it’s industry standard number of maps. But in practice it’s a little thin on the ground.

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Its not per se the number of maps that is a problem, but more the kind of maps and how some play.

The 3 BTB maps are more diverse (Deadlock being a Banished map, Fragmentation a Forerunner map and Highpower a human map) then the 7 4v4 maps (Behemoth is Forerunner, the rest is all human structures). More diversity in style is needed for the 4v4 maps. With the Forerunner and Banished structures being central in campaign and no human structures being there, it’s a bit weird to have almost all 4v4 maps being human. I like to see a 4v4 map where you play inside a Forerunner or Banished structure.

Aquarius (4v4)
This is actually my favourite map. It plays good with a good mix of the more open parts and smaller rooms in the side. Slayer, CTF and Fiesta are all fun to play on this map.

Bazaar (4v4)
Okay’ish map. I like it more as a CTF map then as a slayer map personally, but it is okay to play. The marketplace (middle of the map) only feels a bit to much of a ‘enter it and get shot from all sided’ spot, since almost all path go through this open area. For FFA i think this map is bad, since the powerweapon is still in, but a players spawns near it, making that player have a huge advantage from the start…

Behemoth (4v4)
Personally i don’t like this map at all. It is way to much open area and way to little close spaced area. Most spawns are also in the open area with no good weapon pickups nearby (BR) for that open area, making you have to walk out in the open without middle/long ranged weapon while enemies with BR and sniper just firing upon you… Fiesta on this map is just bad because of this, since you can spawn with only close range weapons, with enemies with sniping weapons… You got almost no where to go then.

Deadlock (BTB)
My least favourite BTB map, though still decent to play. The two banished turrets make it so that in the beginning walking down the middle path is just suicidal most of the time. It also makes it that 1 teammate just camps the turret in objective mode, while not contributing anything (because the objectives are out of the range of that turret). Also most path are to small and rocky to be able to use the vehicles. The wraith (when it spawns) can hardly move away from the base because of that. That it plays in the dark makes the map stand out most in my opinion.

Fragmentation (BTB)
The two bases feel a bit nostalgic, the rest of the map plays different ofcourse. Overall a decent map. The entry to the top of the tower in the front (from sniper spawn) does make it so often the back of the base is not (fully) used. That entry might be a bit to much though. The addition of the two vaults in the side that you need to unlock for the powerweapon is nice and adds a new element, but perhaps the door shouldn’t close while there is still a player inside, this makes just AFK-camping in there to much of an issue. I think the doors should open automaticly for everybody 10 seconds after entering or when the powerweapon has been grabbed (to only close again when no one is inside anymore and only then the powerweapon can respawn).

Highpower
Overall a nice map, but from 1 base you have a bigger line of sight then from the other, because the ‘gate’ is closer to one base then the other. And 1 base has its vehicles spawn in the back (covered by the base) and the other to the side (visible from the middle), wich also makes it to much of a difference wich side you spawn. This map plays better with vehicles, although the giant hole in the middle is a bit of a shame. Would perhaps been nicer if that was just an open area?

Launch Site (4v4)
Okay map for one flag, terrible map for anything else. For One Flag the biggest problem is recovering when the flag is already dragged to the gutter. The defenders have only 1 vehicle (mongoose) wich makes it impossible to gain the enemy when they crossed that point. Replacing the mongoose with a gungoose would already help a lot.
For slayer and fiesta this map is just to one-sided, because of the vehicles (and also to big). In slayer the hog and ghost are creating just to much of an advantage and in Fiesta those could even be a scorpion or wraith. I always went on a 10 to 20 spree before the enemy could kill me in it on Fiesta, wich always decided the match.

Live Fire (4v4)
Decent map. Only with oddball i have a little issue with it. The team that spawn at the towerside has a little longer path to the oddball (since the other team has an almost direct path) and if your team has the repulsor, the tower is a bit to well defendable position, making everybody want to bring the oddball there.

Recharge
okay map, but the powerweapon is a problem. The most effective counter to this weapon, the repulsor, spawns near the sword/hammer, wich often leads to the one carrying the powerweapon also having the repulsor. When the powerweapon is the sword, you often see the swordcarrier just run across the map carefree, since it is almost impossible to kill him in time when he is sprint-sliding towards you. The repulsor shouldn’t spawn near the sword/hammer. At the same time, most people don’t use the middle of the map (where the oddball spawns) in slayer, because you can get shot from all possible sides and there is no incentive to go there. Perhaps make either the powerweapon spawn here (and move the repulsor to the little island where the powerweapon is now) or move the repulsor to here.

Streets
Okay map to play, but biggest problem is that one side spawns with the BR close and the other with a commando, making it uneven.

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Would I appreciate more maps? 100%. But, and this is just my personal opinion, I think the bigger problem is the lack of game modes. Yeah we have a similar amount of maps as 2 and 3, but the playlists options are so limited that they feel way more repetitive because you’re using them the same ways over and over again.

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my guy any one of those maps is better than all of the maps in infinite

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Halo 3 had Forge to rely on at launch so technically there’s more maps. Not just that but 2 and 3 were over 15 years ago. We’re supposed to move forward and get more in games as we progress, not less, it’s not even on par. I’d likely to forgive Infinite if it launch with an amazing Forge as we could make even more maps.

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Did they, though? I think they’re pretty much using the same engine they have been for 20 years

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I would like to add the context that I am speaking from the perspective of someone who is currently studying for a major in Macroeconomics.

And more money doesn’t mean a great thing.

Yes lets take a look a Splitgate.

A passion-project by six people.

Now lets look at Halo Infinite and it’s 500+ credited* devs.
*credited meaning that most companies have it so if you don’t work on a game for 6+ months, you actually do not get your name in the credits + any bonuses given out upon release of the game.

The problem is being too big to afford to fail. Why do you think Ubisoft now only makes Open World grind games? Because they are EASY to churn out by just making a big map, marking key locations on it, and then making a story tied to it. And being a company with 26 development houses, you have A LOT MORE MONEY REQUIRED to pay for all of the assets your company owns in order to keep the company going.

Being too big to fail is also why EA Games is NOTORIOUS for burning down their subsidiaries. The trend is usually EA acquires a studio, the studio gets meddled with by EA to make their game something it isn’t, the game doesn’t sell well because it isn’t what the fans want from said studio, and so since it sold under the required value for EA to make a profit from the game; they LIQUIDATE the assets of that company in order to make up for the lost money that they forced into the project and made it sink. This has happened to -

  • Bullfrog Productions
  • Westwood Studios
  • Origin Systems
  • NuFX
  • Pandemic Studios
  • PlayFish
  • Black Box Games
  • DreamWorks Interactive
  • Phenomic Game Development
  • Victory Games
  • Mythic Entertainment
  • Maxis Software
  • EA Salt Lake
  • Visceral Games
  • BioWare Montreal

The bigger the studio, the higher the expected production value.
The higher production value means the higher cost.
The higher the cost means that the company expects big profits.

Halo Infinite is cited to have a roughly $500,000,000 budget.
Half of that is likely to be marketing alone, which means the game truly is at $250,000,000 in value. But anyway, Microsoft spent $500million.

Typical company profit margins cite that the ideal profit yield should be AT MINIMUM a 20% bonus to the actual cost of the product in order for it to be considered a truly successful product. Which means that Halo Infinite MUST yield a return of not only the $500 million that they sank into the development project. BUT they also want a return of a bonus $100 million WITHIN A FISCAL YEAR in order for the company and its shareholders to consider the game to be a success and a worthy investment of the company.
$600 million return AT MINIMUM.

BUT that is not all. Halo Infinite is planned to be supported for a decade. So they will of course want to see even more returns that will probably rival that $100 million bonus on a YEARLY BASIS.

Sleazy business tactics will be expected.

Now lets take a look again at SplitGate.
A passion project of six dudes.
Profits are optional. These guys just went ahead and said “we thought of something fun that we would want to play, and we have the know how of how to play it. Lets make it and just add in a small microtransaction system just so we can cover the small costs of we six guys doing this. After all, we had to pay for the licensing to use the programs to make this magic happen.”

Meanwhile the big triple-A series that already has expectations set and fans demanding a sequel has to go “Holy crap we gotta churn out another one!” meanwhile their employers and shareholders and investors say “You better not screw it up. Or else you are liquidated. No pressure. It’s not like your last two attempts really made our customers angry… right?”

Anyway, the point I am making is that with how much we demand that games look great and play smoothly, I am not surprised that given all that has happened and what 343 had given us in the past… I am honestly shocked that Halo Infinite isn’t worse.

Halo 5’s map selection was rather dull.
Halo 4’s was descent but the gameplay of 4 was just too off-putting to keep players around for more than six months.

Sure Infinite has its issues with lag, desync, and the maps are often “3-lane maps”. But to be fair, a lot of the past maps have been 3-lane maps before.
Sand Trap from Halo 3 had players approach either through the structure in mid, or around the sides in vehicles.
Haven from Halo 4 was just a round 3-lane map.

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You’re thinking of Bethesda with how since The Elder Scrolls III - Morrowind they have been using the same engine with an upgrade overhaul.

Halo CE had an engine.
Halo 2 had a broken engine.
Halo 3 had an engine derived from Unreal 2.
Halo 4 and Halo 2 Anniversary share the same engine derrived from what Halo Reach had crafted, which Bungie held as a close secret.
Halo 5 had a new engine derived from Unreal 4.
Infinite now has the SlipSpace Engine, which is somewhat secretive as well as they do not want the specs being leaked just yet. But I am pretty sure that since Certain Affinity is taking forever with Forge this time, it is DEFINITELY a new engine since when CA made Forge in Halo 5, it took only Two Months.

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I would certainly like to see some old maps again, but I think they would need to be tested carefully due to the new movement options of clamber/grapple etc.

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You can’t count Launchpad or whatever it’s called and Behemoth because they suck incredibly hard :slight_smile:

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Gotta disagree with you on Behemoth.

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The OP is quite correct the number of maps isn’t drastically different and there have been a lot of good points made on the subject.

For me personally I’d expect after all the time in development and for how old the original Halo trilogy is at this point that things should be better anyway.

More than a decade of progress in gaming, for me, should translate to a marked improvement rather than a slight reduction.

“It’s only slightly less than something you got over 10 years ago” doesn’t quite sound right to me.

With all that being said it’s quality over quantity for me anyway but sadly since there are quite a few maps I’m not a big fan of it kind of feels like I’m getting neither quality nor quantity I’d have hoped for.

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The maps a decade ago had less polygon count and less textures, plus the VFX and sound design was a lot more minimal. Polygon count has multiplied around 9x since then and game performance has to keep up with this demand for more realism.

I’m honestly amazed that production hasn’t really slowed.

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Sure from a technical level what goes in to a map now is different but advances in software tools help with that, I’m not for a moment suggesting they don’t still take considerable work but more from a customer proposition if I’m getting less maps now than I did 15 years ago that doesn’t quite sound right.

It really wouldn’t surprise me to see a ‘legacy’ playlist appear some point in the not too distant future with reworked versions of classic maps, a bit like what the Mario Kart series does, each new iteration you get new tracks but you also have reworked tracks from previous games.

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I was about to post this. The tools have greatly increased in usability (probably not for 343i lol). Compare GTK Radiant or WorldCraft to the newer versions of UnrealEd or Unity. Hardware has also developed a bit over time, so that baking the lighting etc. won’t take ages anymore.

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It still is impressive though.

More has to be done and yet somehow it doesn’t cost that much extra time imput.

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Ascension
Beaver creek
Burial mounds
Coagulation
Colossus
Headlong
Ivory tower
Lockout
Midship
Waterworks
Zanzibar

Ascension was an F F A masterpiece.

Beaver Creek is a remake, So No comment.

Burial Mounds was a One-Bomb masterpiece.

Coagulation was a multi-flag C T F masterpiece.

Colossus was the definition of Halo 2 Xbox Live. It’s the map that comes to mind when playing with all your friends. A great team slayer map with open-ness and a nice epic color palette.

Headlong was a C T F, One Bomb, Team Slayer, BTB, an all around master piece. Not to mention how fun it was to go outside the map, and do Sword Cancelling glitch fun and fly across the map. Just a multi-level master piece.

Ivory Tower was an F F A, CTF, One Bomb, any gametype really! just a masterpiece

Lockout, don’t even get me started on Lockout.

Midship. Don’t even get me … just no. Don’t.

Waterworks was a peaceful, C T F masterpiece

Zanzibar, oh shut up, don’t even… no shut up

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