Halo 2 & 3 only had 11 maps at launch, is Infinite having 10 really that bad?

[RamboBambiBambo]

@Windjammer19

@RamboBambiBambo

• Deadlock - a recreation of Standoff from Halo 3

• Guillotine - a recreation of Headlong from Halo 2
• Recurve - a recreation of Longbow from Halo 4
• Entombed - a recreation of Burial Mounds from Halo 2

Those are forge maps which players probably would have done anyways.

Forge maps done by developers to showcase the scope of Halo 5 Forge and set into the playlists as a default.

And yes, Basis was INSPIRED by Valhalla. I will correct myself on that.

But yeah, 343 needs to recreate more maps and put them in more often. I mean look at the map rosters of Halo 2, 3, and Reach.

Halo 2

• Beaver Creek - a recreation of Battle Creek
• Coagulation - a recreation of Blood Gulch
• Warlock - A recreation of Wizard
• Elongation - A recreation of Longest
• Gemini - A recreation of Duality from Marathon
• Desolation - A recreation of Derelict
• Tombstone - A recreation of Hang 'Em High

Halo 3

• Last Resort - A recreation of Zanzibar from Halo 2
• Avalanche - A recreation of Sidewinder from Halo CE
• Blackout - A recreation of Lockout from Halo 2
• Cold Storage - A recreation of Chill Out from Halo CE
• Heretic - A recreation of Midship from Halo 2
• Icebox - A recreation of Turf from Halo 2, made by Saber Interactive
• Diamond Back - A biome swap of Avalanche for Halo Online

Halo Reach

• Asylum - A pre-built forge recreation of Sanctuary from Halo 2
• Hemorrhage - A pre-built forge recreation of Blood Gulch from Halo CE
• Pinnacle - A pre-built forge recreation of Ascension from Halo 2
• Reflection - A recreation of Ivory Tower from Halo 2
• The entirety of the Anniversary Map Pack, adding 7 more maps and 6 more sub-variants to the PvP maps.

It is surprising to say the least that 343 didn’t keep the trend going for Halo Infinite’s launch.

[Windjammer19]

All I’m saying about the forge maps is that if the devs are going to make a map, I’d rather them use developer tools instead of the watered-down version (forge) they give to us. Not saying they can’t use forge, but some of those remakes might have been more impressive with dev tools. But I digress.

Haven’s an S-tier IMO, and considering their focus on high competition play, it’s surprising H4’s Skyline hasn’t returned ever. Or even Monolith which seems tame enough for Infinite.

H4 and 5 were just so different from the rest that I felt some of their maps might have been very good in H3 or Reach. I’d like to see them test that concept.

Heck, I’d even be interested in seeing some of the breakout maps return.

[ShinoKeiyakusha]

@Sodium_Bath

It has 2 flanks with the loot caves left and right of the map, and the central area is split into two with a contested pickup/bunker in the middle splitting the middle road. It can be more accurately described as a 4 lane map, but the terrain mirrors of each side kind of switches up the movement options enough that you have some asymmetry when going down the lanes from each side.

That’s true.

@Sodium_Bath

It’s not.
For one, one base has a straight up power position access to the sniper ledge, but they also have the risk of the pit. The middle gate/ramp highly favors the side without the pit because its terrain is steeper, providing more vertical advantage if both sides were to clash there, not to mention the middle gate is in full view of their vantage point which has 1 Dropwall, 1 precision, 1 launcher spawn.

To me, the map looks like another 3-lane.
You have the two sides (one with the sniper ledge, one with the sword), and then the center pass.
I’m not saying it isn’t asymmetrical, but you only have three directions.

@Sodium_Bath

But all in all, Halo maps aren’t supposed to play like “lanes”, especially for BTB.
They should be more open and more breathable for players and vehicles alike. This is what 343 has not delivered so far which makes the Halo experience lacking.

Definitely.
We need more maps with room for vehicles to be used without feeling very restricted.

@RamboBambiBambo

To show how much better the story could’ve been, below I posted a link where I restored the original script that Halo 5 WAS SUPPOSED to have to the best of my findings, while tweaking the final act to lead into Halo Wars 2 as a personal challenge of myself to fix the broken nonsensical narrative we were presented with in 2015.

A simple detailed plot summary.

• https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SgMQ0hbk3BFofkeWSE7zv5TAJiz4phZfYQGuhP3DsCQ/edit?usp=sharing

I can’t comment on that script since I haven’t played Halo 5, but the concept of AIs going crazy is sort of odd to me.

@RamboBambiBambo

These new maps are good too I would argue.

Some of them are okay, but I prefer Guardian, The Pit, Lockout, Zanzibar, etc.

@Daverex8539

In fact it is easier to make a higher-polygon retopology of a sculpt than to make an ultra-low polygon retopology that still looks good.

It’s not too difficult to reduce the polygon count, but yeah, it’s more difficult to keep it looking good with less.

[ShinoKeiyakusha]

@Windjammer19

All I’m saying about the forge maps is that if the devs are going to make a map, I’d rather them use developer tools instead of the watered-down version (forge) they give to us. Not saying they can’t use forge, but some of those remakes might have been more impressive with dev tools. But I digress.

Since it’s going to last for 10 years, I hope we get more Forge flexibility.

[BroBro456]

ctually for something to be $40 in the store it would have to coast 4000 credits and if I recall the techno trail you are speaking of was a pack and it was 1500 credits making it $15 which is still alot but way less than the $40 you are claiming it was. Use facts not false information

[Darwi]

I actually like the maps so far.

And yes. For launch it was an ok number / selection.

What is disappointing is the lack of news / road map for new ones. An extended Season 1 with nothing else leaves the cupboard a tad bare. Early may is a long way away.

They need Behemoth back in the rotation. Fix the spawns / sight lines / weapon balance - whatever it was. Tweak it and make it functional.

Surely it can’t be too hard to port over the Halo 5 maps. There is a fair chance they would play well with Infinite’s mechanics; The Rig, Haven, Truth, and Fathom would be a great start.

Take a map like Bazaar. Block off some bits. Set it at night. And give us something a bit different to mix it up.

[II_R3GR3T_II]

It’s solely because those maps were better… imagine if Halo 2 launched in this era of gaming people would be like “where is the content”, “this game needs this” etc… people demand way to much… all I care about is the experience while playing… halo 2 was the greatest of all time… if you were there back in 2004 then you know… Halo Infinite is perfectly fine, the ranks are broken and the game lacks for a truly optimized net code that is making the online experience feel like trash but other than that the game is incredible!

[Aristocus]

THE PINK TRAIL WAS $20, AND THE MISTER CHIEF AI VOICE WAS $20.
Don’t try to defend them, I didn’t lie at all! The pink trail/ blossom was $20. The mister chief AI voice pack was $20.
That’s $40.
THAT’S $40 HOW DARE YOU CALL ME OUT FOR BEING WRONG WHEN IM NOT I FEEL SO ATTACKED

[perfectXzerO]

True but I think most of what people are upset about is that it’s been 3 months and virtually nothing has been updated or added to the game. For H3, by December, Bungie had the Heroic map pack adding 3 maps and in April, the Legendary map pack adding an addition 3 maps. On Bungie day, July 7th, they added a free map. They also had a road map within a couple weeks of the games launch. Not to mention Forge came out at launch so by February, there were 100s of maps created for custom games and MLG style playlists.

[DefineBrackish]

How many gametypes did the other Halo games start with? I think that’s a big reason why Infinite feels stale. There’s also only two game sizes: 4v4 and 12v12. Every other Halo game has had more options than that.

[about_75_tacos]

Apologist detected.

Halo 2 launched with 11 maps, but they all felt good to play on. It’s repeated time and again 343i era BTB maps don’t FEEL like BTB maps. They feel like larger 4v4 maps with preset paths vehicles are allowed down so they may be blown up. Not to mention the lack of mode diversity in Infinite vs H2

H2 BTB

1 Flag
2 Flag
Neutral Flag
1 Bomb
2 Bomb
Neutral Bomb
Territories
Team Slayer

This is off the top of my head but couple that with the maps being more enjoyable to play on. H2 is a far better game with more features.

Last time I made a post destroying 343 apologists I ate a ban because people can’t handle the truth

[RamboBambiBambo]

Dude… don’t call me an apologist.

I hate 343 for all the wrong that they have done over the decade. I am just glad that Halo Infinite isn’t as bad as their last two attempts at making a Halo title.

[MS_Ark]

Im having a little trouble navigating the post, but I don’t see other people mentioning it.

But…
Yeah no the map pool kinda sucks.

The core difference between infinite from 2/3/Reach?
Map diversity.

Halo Infinites maps are mostly uninspired, and play off the Same 3 basic concepts.

-Btb maps are mostly generic battle field with 3 lanes + Two Bases
-3 Lane: Live Fire, Streets, Aquarius, Behemoth
-2 Base + Symmetrical: Behemoth, Aquarius, Bazaar
-Asymmetrical: Lauch site, Recharge.

Halo 2 maps?

-Asymmetrical: Ascension, Burial Mounds, Headlong (Gigantic map with a ton of Verticality), Ivory tower (super iconic), Lockout (super iconic), Zanzibar.
-2Base: Beaver Creek, Coagulation (Huge open map too),
-2Base + Symmetrical + 3 Lane?: Colossus, Midship (Also built for Free for all because round), Waterworks, (giant map, also technically a 3 Lane)

Halo 2 Had a TON of Asymmetrical maps, and alot of the maps had this focus on different types of engagements. And, very few maps were 3 Lane.

Halo 3 maps? Honeslty all of them were really unique, or remasters of unique maps.

-Construct, super unique with a focus on combat being fought in a vertical dounut,
-Epitaph, divided up into 5 distinct areas which featured different types of combat scenarios.
-Guardian, Its basically Lockout but mirrored and reskinned. Its a beloved map.
-Highground, Its a spiritual successor to Zanzibar.
-Isolation, is a wholly unique map, literally never came back both as a remake, nor has a map made in its spirit.
-Last resort, Is literally just Zanzibar
-Narrows, not really even a 2 base map. And has a wonderful gameplay gimmick that worked with a ton of modes.
-Sand trap, Wild map with a wild Gimmick. the Mammoths. And all the landscape you need for really fun Vehicle play.
-Snowbound, one of the least liked maps, but really really inspired in concept. with very distinct combat areas.
-The pit, Two Base, but also 3 Lane, But also wildly different in heights, but also… yeah no. It is a hard runner for the best map in all of Halo 3.
-Valhalla, The Spiritual child of Blood Gultch and Coagulation. Huge map with lots of Vehicles. Lots of different places to fight.

TL;DR

None of Halo Infinites maps share any of infamous and inventive designs of the Classics.
There are no Gimmicks here that define any of the maps as truly excellent. Everything is… “safe” to its complete and utter detriment.

The only Standout maps with any level of adventure in them are,
Recharge and Behemoth.
And Behemoth is held back because the map isn’t well balanced in terms of Weapon and Power weapon spawns.

What blows my mind is that…
Why was nothing remade? 343i has a TON of maps they could pull so much creative inspiration from.
Of the 10 maps, 2 of the could have been fan favorite Remakes. We could have had more Zanzibar, instead of Lauchsite. Instead of Streets, we could have had Guardian or Lockout.

It bothers me deeply that remaking the classics was not seriously considered.

[LazyBane]

It is when there’s less game types that Halo CE to keep those ten maps fresh, not even including the variants in CE. People saying there isn’t enough maps are just trying to express the lack of variety in Infinite right now, and just saying there needs to be more maps is just an easy way of expressing that.

Infinite had 6 game modes at launch, two of which are identical BTB versions of a 4v4 game mode, so I don’t count those as new game modes. Basically, Infinite has 4 game modes at launch, all of them are team-based and most of them heavily objective orientated. FFA wasn’t even in the game in a launch, and was only added as an option after people complained.

What’s really egregious about this is that there are more game modes in the game, that you can play right now if you boot Infinite without an internet connection, that are being held back for the sake of trying to hype up events.

The maps all following the three lanes design philosophy also doesn’t help the maps really feel distinct. Halo CE had some pretty fun designs at launch, such as Chiron TL-34 or Boarding Action which might not be the best, e-sports ready, maps but certainly help bring variety to the experience.

Finally, customs games are broken, not initializing or saving game mode changes sometimes, and just being very buggy in general. The ways you’re able to edit game modes is also half-baked, with no option to choose starting equipment or equipment uses, cutting the biggest additions of Infinite’s sandbox off from its full potential. Without an in game customs browser, it’s pretty awkward for PC users to organise a custom games as well.

[dragonnight1221]

“10” maps but when I play it only uses four of them and usually repeats two for a while, the randomizer or whatever picks the maps out seems to have favorites and onlying picking a few out of the potential ten and I want to play with a lot of the maps with other people but the game only wants bizarr and the sandy Forrunner one with a possibility of the station one and the city maps being a bit less often, playing for the past while and in many different mods and half the maps I haven’t played in once

[perfectXzerO]

@MS_Ark

It bothers me deeply that remaking the classics was not seriously considered.

It’s because of sprint. You literally can’t recreate these iconic maps with different player base movement. They already tried it in H5 with Truth/Regret and the forge remakes like Basin, Deadlong and Guillotine. You can clearly see the elongated nature of the map to accommodate the player movement changes it and the game itself completely. If you mess with the movement design you have to change both the map design and weapon design for it to work.

[SPADES_216]

They really went and said aight we are going to give you even less stuff to start off with.

[KatnissOnFire96]

@Daverex8539

Have you PLAYED Launch-site, Deadlock, Fragmentation, and Behemoth?
They’re not the best.

understatement of the decade, and you forgot to throw in high power

[KatnissOnFire96]

@Windjammer19

Haven/Mercy

i’m more of a fan of adrift and plaza

[Kashyy]

People just don’t want to admit that content is not the problem. The gameplay is bland and it lacks replay value. BR’s are legit one big map with the same weapons and yet people can play for months. Adding more maps and game modes isn’t going to keep people interested. The game is a cash grab.