H4 Detractors, what new features do you WANT

I note a lot of threads/comments on this forum complaining that H4 “ruined” the Halo experience, b/c it’s too random due to personal ordinance, AAs, tactical packages, support upgrades, and different loadouts in general, or that it is too derivative of other FPS games, or that its too different from classic halo games and this perceived lack of sameness makes H4 “not Halo.” I note a lot of community members lamenting that this or that weapon is OP and should be nerfed back to corresponding versions from the earlier games. In essence, a lot of complaints and demands about how and why H4 should revert certain aspects to how they were in H3 or H2.

Then, inevitably, those with opposing viewpoints counter with the argument that “if you want H3, just go play H3.” The general responses I’ve seen to such argument are in the vein of: “I don’t want to have to play an old game. I want the old formula innovated rather than substituted with staples from other popular FPS games. I want the old experience updated, and not just repackaged with shinier graphics, etc.” The problem I have with this argument is that no one ever seems to suggest anything that they actually WANT in a new game that would “innovate” the old formula without borrowing elements that some deem incompatible with the Halo style. No one ever suggests how they would have “innovated” H3 gameplay uniquely when making its successors. Instead, its just whining and crying about such and such feature is NOT wanted in the new game.

So my challenge is this: if you don’t like H4 and want it to play more like H2/H3 but innovated into a new experience, what are your suggestions for things you WANT, that are new and different from H2/H3, as opposed to things that are in fact implemented in H4 that you don’t want? If you can’t suggest any “innovations” to the H2/H3 formula, then the argument stands: go play H3 and stop complaining!

Because the truth is, a lot of people enjoy this game immensely. I am one of those people. I played the hell out of H3, but got quite bored with it by the time COD:MW2 came out, and when I tried going back to H3, it was just so slow, repetitive, and frankly, boring, that I physically couldn’t bring myself to play it anymore. I was overjoyed when Reach came out as it implemented great new features while maintaining Halo feel (i.e. you still have to move around and pull your trigger more than once to kill someone, so battles can be won on more than an “I saw you first” basis). I played the hell out of Reach, experimenting with and mastering essentially every AA (except armor lock, which I never used), and found that the new features added enough variety that by the time H4 came out, the experience had not become stale and repetitive to me like H3 had. Nonetheless, I really welcomed H4, and found its experience to be even better than Reach, and even thought it played more like H3 than Reach did, keeping the best features of both, and adding even more variety that will surely prevent the experience from becoming stale and repetitive and hence, me playing, until H5 comes out.

So I know some of you don’t like variety. You want everyone to have the same weapons and character/armor traits, and want to know exactly when and where every weapon will spawn so you can play essentially the same game over and over and over again, using the same tired tactics that every longtime player has long ago mastered. If you are like that, please, enlighten me as to what you want added to the H3 experience that won’t ruin the game? As I already said, if you don’t have any meaningful, narrow, specific suggestions, then just go play H3. Because honestly, remaking an old game over and over again with updated graphics and slight tweaks to weapon functionality, is a waste of the developers time (and the players, as well, IMO).

tl;dr: if you don’t like H4, and don’t want to play H3 with only new graphics, what do you want to ADD to the H3 experience, as opposed to what you want to REMOVE from the H4 experience.

I prefer the Classic gameplay where everyone starts off on equal footing. This has become more evident to me in Halo 4, where anyone can spawn in a Shotgun, Saw, RL, etc. and completely change the tide of the battle.

The one thing I don’t understand, about most of the other people that want the Classic playlists, is the negativity towards Sprint. The default maps in Halo 4 are designed with it in mind, and the few problems people had with it were fixed. Personally, I understood why someone would be upset when the enemy you got the drop on sprints away; but now when you shoot a sprinting enemy they slow down. It lets you get around the map quicker, but you momentarily sacrifice all your offensive capabilities. In Halo 3 especially, walking around Sandtrap trying to get to where the enemies were could take a while without a vehicle, with Sprint you can get back in the fight quicker.

So your answer is sprint? You essentially want H3 remade with sprint added? Not good enough. Go play H3.

> So your answer is sprint? You essentially want H3 remade with sprint added? Not good enough. Go play H3.

So you’re god all of a sudden? You get to decide whether or not my opinion is “good enough”? I posted what I like and what I would want, really only one simple change, and you “refute” me by saying Halo 4 should be more like CoD.

I got bored of Halo 3 for a while and went to MW2 also. The difference is I realized whenever I came back from MW2 to H3 Matchmaking I would get worse at the game. I constantly had to get used to working with my team and supporting them by: getting the power weapons, driving the Warthog, holding down a section of the map, flanking the enemy, and so on. In CoD all you have to do is run around and shoot, no tactics or thinking or teamwork is required to win.

I don’t want to play Halo 4 like that, I want something different than every other shooter on the market.

Where did I say H4 should be more like COD? Or that I was god? My point is that, in my opinion, sprint is not a “meaningful” enough modification to the H3 gameplay to justify a completely new game (you will note my thread requested “meaningful, narrow, specific” changes to the H3 gameplay; sprint is acceptable with respect to a “narrow and specific” change, but is it really meaningful enough in and of itself to justify the cost of producing, marketing, distributing and maintaining an entirely separate game? I think not).

My point was not to say Halo should abandon features that require one “to getting the power weapons, driving the Warthog, holding down a section of the map, flanking the enemy, and so on.” Instead, I (rather rudely, I’ll admit) was trying to point out that the opening statement of your post:

“I prefer the Classic gameplay where everyone starts off on equal footing. This has become more evident to me in Halo 4, where anyone can spawn in a Shotgun, Saw, RL, etc. and completely change the tide of the battle.”

Is a complete non-answer to my question. What I read from your post is you saying “make H3 but with sprint,” and as I already stated, that, to me, is not a significant enough addition to justify an entirely new game.

So we are not allowed to subtract things that were added to halo 4 because all change is inherently good, and we aren’t allowed to want anything back from old games because if 343 saw fit to get rid of it it must be bad? I hope I’m misunderstand your prompt.

but anyway(copy/pasta)…

Make a balanced slayer playlist or gametype within the current infinity slayer playlist, that is less random and has more consistent starts, forcing map movement, and resurrecting the arena style of gameplay, but not necessarily removing ordnance and loudouts. Varied preset, no AA loadouts, with AA in PO, and weapons on the map, would be my optimal solution. A truely classic slayer wouldn’t hurt either, but I’m not a hardliner. My biggest personal problem is PO being so random and unbalanced, and since I usually play with my brother, he dislikes that custom loadouts discourage map movement and basically can start you with a nerfed sniper rifle and a shotgun that requires charging. The DMR and Boltshot aren’t OP for the game, just as starting weapons.

Bring back multi-team. Even a combined playlist with action sack would be a fantastic improvement. multi- team has always been my playlist so it’s hard to cope currently with 4 and I often play reach for multi-team.

Bring back as many custom games as possible. I like a variety of gametypes, but there is a whole community that is dedicated to custom games that has been snubbed even harder by this than I. My top three are race, headhunter, and VIP, but I would like to see all of them return so the custom community can flourish, and my MM experience can be more varied than KOTH and oddball. See this thread for more details.

Bring back symmetrical and neutral gametypes. 1 flag was always my favorite objective gametype and now it’s not even an option in custom games let alone MM. On that same note please at leat make the option of removing your new CTF settings, such as the flagnum and nodrop.

For BTB, give them some objectives and find a way to replace secondaries and grenades in custom loadouts with a magnum and frags, or otherwise make it enjoyable to use vehicles again.

> Where did I say H4 should be more like COD? Or that I was god? My point is that, in my opinion, sprint is not a “meaningful” enough modification to the H3 gameplay to justify a completely new game (you will note my thread requested “meaningful, narrow, specific” changes to the H3 gameplay; sprint is acceptable with respect to a “narrow and specific” change, but is it really meaningful enough in and of itself to justify the cost of producing, marketing, distributing and maintaining an entirely separate game? I think not).
>
> My point was not to say Halo should abandon features that require one “to getting the power weapons, driving the Warthog, holding down a section of the map, flanking the enemy, and so on.” Instead, I (rather rudely, I’ll admit) was trying to point out that the opening statement of your post:
>
> “I prefer the Classic gameplay where everyone starts off on equal footing. This has become more evident to me in Halo 4, where anyone can spawn in a Shotgun, Saw, RL, etc. and completely change the tide of the battle.”
>
> Is a complete non-answer to my question. What I read from your post is you saying “make H3 but with sprint,” and as I already stated, that, to me, is not a significant enough addition to justify an entirely new game.

Since when are we talking about an entirely new game? We’re talking about Halo 4, and what needs to and should be in Halo 4. If they created Halo 5 and it only had Halo 3 features I’d be pissed off as well. 343 has stated before that they don’t want to separate the Community, but by not incorporating basic features from previous games, they are doing exactly what they don’t want to.

Creating a few Classic playlists with sprint or a few other changes should take less than a week to put together. Nobody who wants Classic options in Halo 4 doesn’t want Infinity Slayer or Throwdown to cease existence, well at least sensible people.

I never like the idea of subtracting features from a game, which is mainly why 343i’s decision to make the Infinity Slayer settings the only option has annoyed me since day 1. I defended 343i for months because I believed that they would fulfill their promise and bring back Classic options & Competitive options for those that wanted them. Now I’m done defending them, but I still hope they pull through this mess.

inb4 " we don’t want halo 2 or halo 3.5 we want a halo game." please. Halo 4 is a halo game. People just use the argument “thats not halo” to fuel their idiocy. You don’t have to like the new features. But trying to claim they break halo or that halo 4 doesn’t play like halo is wrong. halo “changed” with reach. People should have realized thats the way halo is going. its not going to change back. And these changes arn’t bad. halo 4 plays like halo. It just wears a new coat.

I think you do misunderstand my prompt somewhat. I understand that a lot of the waypoint community is advocating for “addition by subtraction,” i.e. remove AAS, loadouts, ordinance, and you have a good game (I’m not saying that is what you are saying, its just what I see a lot of people saying). I just think that dead horse has already been sufficiently beaten.

Thus, I framed my question in a way that I thought would remove any need for discussing such removals. The premise is this: you’re the developer, you start with H3 as your prototype, what do you add/change to innovate the experience enough to justify a completely new game? Too many people on these forums argue from the inverse premise: starting with H4 as your prototype, what do you remove to make the game you want? You are correct in pointing out (and I understand) that these are really two-sides of the same coin, because any real solution will probably be somewhere in between H3 and H4. It just seems more beneficial to me, from a discussion/feedback to 343 standpoint, to discuss desired changes in terms of building up from what you liked (presumably H3), instead of tearing down what you don’t.

In that regard, I think your points are rather well taken, and this, in particular, is a fair suggestion: Varied preset, no AA loadouts, with AA in PO, and weapons on the map, would be my optimal solution." Though it is lacking a little specificity.

> inb4 " we don’t want halo 2 or halo 3.5 we want a halo game." please. Halo 4 is a halo game. People just use the argument “thats not halo” to fuel their idiocy. You don’t have to like the new features. But trying to claim they break halo or that halo 4 doesn’t play like halo is wrong. halo “changed” with reach. People should have realized thats the way halo is going. its not going to change back. And these changes arn’t bad. halo 4 plays like halo. It just wears a new coat.

Reach added AA and preset loadouts, not custom loadouts and ordnance. If Halo 4 simply built off Reach it would still be an arena shooter, especially if they balanced the inequalities of AA that Reach introduced, which they did to an extent but then went to far. It does not play LIKE Halo, Reach played LIKE halo, but changed a few things. Halo 4 built off the changes and ignored the foundation. Halo 4 is no longer an arena shooter, but even with AA Reach still was.

Op, you can rant and insult all you want, borrowing features from modern games isn’t “innovation” in any sense of the word. It’s fine if you like those features, but don’t rely on false arguments like that. Nothing about Halo 4 is particularly “innovative”, you are just using it as a scapegoat. Reach however was fairly innovative for its time.

> But trying to claim they break halo or that halo 4 doesn’t play like halo is wrong. halo “changed” with reach. People should have realized thats the way halo is going. its not going to change back. And these changes arn’t bad. halo 4 plays like halo. It just wears a new coat.

I would gladly take a Reach 2 over this game. I need to emphasize that stronger. Halo 4 isn’t bad because it’s different, Halo 4 is bad because of removed content and flawed aspects.

Innovations, I’ll have to get back to you on that. Thinking of good innovations takes time, which unfortunately 343I didn’t have much of due to microsoft.

I guess I can leave these here for now:
Armor Abilities v1
Armor Abilities v2
A few tweaks to fileshare.

Here’s a somewhat more well explained idea I had that includes custom loadouts and PO, that more classic players could get behind, it’s still very different than Halo 3 while still maintaining alot of thing classic players like about Halo:

What if instead of a precision weapons and AA in custom loadouts, and instead of the bolt shot and plasma pistol or grenades, players customized their ordinance and had more limited loadout selections.

Custom loadouts would include the automatic weapon of your choice. All Loadouts would have magnums and frags, and a choice of a first tier(of two tiers) of armor abilities. The AA choices would be those featured in throwdown perhaps.

Then you could customize your ordnance pregame with any of the second tier AA, any of the precision weapons, any grenade type, or any automatic or secondary guns, in the three slots that we are used to.

That way ordnance would be limited and controlled, still be a reward, and not affect power weapons or powerups. Plus it would be customizable!

For more community ideas on balanced PO, click here.

I just want a DMR Nerf and i’d be fine for the most part.

Customizable Ordnance is basically the same as killstreaks.

Though at least I wouldn’t be getting Needlers on Ragnarok if I customized my Ordnance, so I can support this somewhat.

I propose the following:

5 Kill Ordnance Options
Scattershot
Shotgun
Needler
Sticky Detonator
Weapon Ammo

10 Kill Ordnance Options
Energy Sword
Gravity Hammer
Railgun
Spartan Laser
SAW
Powerups

20 Kill Ordnance Options
Sniper Rifle
Rockets
Fuel Rod Cannon
Beam Rifle

> I just want a DMR Nerf and i’d be fine for the most part.

If the DMR was a map pick-up weapon this wouldn’t be a problem to begin with.

@Ramirez, I’m not sure where I said “borrowing features from modern games is innovation.” Or anywhere relied on that “false argument.” However, now that you bring it up, I disagree that things halo “borrowed” did not innovate the gameplay.

Innovate: (verb) 1. Make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products. 2. Introduce something new, esp. a product. (Google “innovate definition” for my source).

I think you are tripping on the distinction between: (1) innovative to Halo; and (2) innovative to the modern FPS. I, frankly, am not creative enough to come up with ideas of how to innovate the modern FPS. But I recognize that selectively “borrowing” some elements from other FPS games, and implementing them in a unique way to the Halo experience innovates the Halo game play, i.e. makes changes in something established by introducing new methods, ideas, or products. Can I call in a some airstrike/helicopter/whatever that I don’t even have to control and rack up kills? No. Instead, I can call in a new better weapon or trait boost that I still have to actively control within the framework of the classic Halo experience. Hence, innovation. I think everything you identify as “borrowed” from another game is, as implemented, unique to the Halo experience such that your “borrowing” label is a complete misnomer.

I still don’t get it: why do these people who demand a strict arena gameplay experience, and who obviously have/had access to Halo 3, not just keep playing Halo 3? EVERYTHING 343 added to the H3 experience (and building off what bungie did with Reach) is a welcomed innovation, IMO, and does not ruin the Halo experience for me. From my experience, the better player still wins 95% of the time. Even in H2/H3, I had to watch out for noobs who were lucky enough to spawn near a power weapon before my team got there, and I would still die to a lesser skilled player happening to get a better weapon. I learned to play to take account of that, and that is all that is required in H4, just to a greater degree.

However, @Ramirez. That last post of yours is a nice suggestion. Meaningful, narrow, specific changes to the ordinance system that would result in more balanced gameplay. I like that.

To them, Halo 3 was already a horribly ruined version of Halo. Hell, even Halo 2 was. Going back from nuclear waste to garbage is not a solution. What they want is Halo 1 with online play.

> I still don’t get it: why do these people who demand a strict arena gameplay experience, and who obviously have/had access to Halo 3, not just keep playing Halo 3?

Maybe because it’s dead?

Low population = Long search times, widely varied skill levels being paired together, the same maps being chosen over and over (Halo PC is 90% bloodgulch at this point), and some niche playlists/maps/gametypes not having any players at all.

For example, the people who liked snowbound were a minority but a large minority, so you could still find snowbound matches. Now that the population is smaller, so is that minority. Thus, “The Pit” and “Guardian” are picked 24/7.

There is little appeal in playing a dead game, regardless of how good it once was in its prime.

> them in a unique way to the Halo experience innovates the Halo game play, i.e. makes changes in something established by introducing new methods, ideas, or products

Perk implementation isn’t unique, nor is it “new” depending on how you define new. I could make the same argument for getting power weapons in Ordnance, since CoD has the “Death Machine” or “war machine” or whatever, but that’s a bit of a stretch.

> From my experience, the better player still wins 95% of the time. Even in H2/H3, I had to watch out for noobs who were lucky enough to spawn near a power weapon before my team got there, and I would still die to a lesser skilled player happening to get a better weapon.

Never had that happen but it reminds me of something. Were Halo 2 and Halo 3 perfect? Of course not. Halo 2 had tons of bugs, and Halo 3 had terrible netcode. And if what you say is true, terrible spawns as well.

These are all examples of where Halo 4 could’ve refined on the old games and been successful, instead of focusing on doing everything different.

Really? You never respawned on the pit just as the shotgun came up again? Or sniper on narrows? Or banshee on Valhalla? You never happened to respawn mid-match, look around, and go “hey, there’s a power weapon that just respawned right over there? Everyone else in the game is engaged in a firefight on another portion of the map. I think I will grab that power weapon?” That’s how timed weapon spawns and player respawning work. If you didn’t experience that, you are either lying, or never played.

The reason I think it will be ineffectual to add a classic (i.e. H3/H2) pure arena experience, is it will have the same low population problems you are complaining about with H3. Those people who’ve stuck w/ H4 so far seem to prefer infinity game types, given the playlist population distributions, so dividing the community into more playlists is not the answer. Just as ranked slayer was the core of H3, H4 needs a core playlist that is the main draw for the vast majority of the player base. They tried to make that infinity, and apparently the “hardcore”/“mlg pro”/“real halo fan” community doesn’t like infinity. I like playlist variety as much as the next guy, and there is absolutely no reason why 343 shouldn’t include many different playlists which cater to different wants and needs, but I presume that a “classic playlist” with a 1,500 player peak population is not going to satisfy that part of the community. I mean, what good are ranks amongst 1,500 players, when other playlist have 15,000, many of whom are probably better than you (not you specifically, a H4 detractor generally).