H4 and Infection

Games Other Halo
1

343, for the love of god- No. For the love of Master Chief, promise me something.

Promise me that when you make the default Infection gametype, that you avoid the what Bungie did wrong with Infection in Reach and H3. And the problems with Infection in Reach and in H3?

Everything.

Utterly everything about these gametypes is just stupid, asinine and fundamentally broken. Where to begin? How about right when the game starts.

Nothing quite starts the experience on the right foot than running into a literal wall of bullets from eight other players all shooting at you. Sure it eventually turns around and the Zombies eventually infect all of the Humans. But there’s a lot of suffering going on just so that the Zombie team eventually wins. Meanwhile you get nothing from your team winning because the scoring system is still FFA. And that whole winning bit? It’s not guaranteed thanks to broken maps or abused positioning. And Slayer? Humans are going to have the advantage here on the scoreboard because they have an infinite pool to pull points from while Zombies don’t.

Next up are the weapons: Shotgun and Magnum is classic. It’s also broken. Remember that wall of bullets I was talking about in the last paragraph? Now imagine that it’s coming from across the map. How’s your blood pressure yet? Magnum starts with shieldless Zombies is just pure frustration. It chokes map movement because it turns long stretches without cover into a No Man’s Land. Shotguns versus Swords is also pure frustration as you’ll be shot down mid-lunge every time. Head to head battles against the Humans is an impossible task and thanks to radar, you’re pretty much forced into one every time.

All of this, weak and outnumbered Zombies versus numerous and strong Humans with a flawed scoring system and gametype, culminate into a horrible experience that I’m severely understating. Wanna know how Infection should be in H4? Look at other franchise in the genre: Left 4 Dead and Dead Space.

Players aren’t the weak rank and file that they are in Halo Infection. They play special infected with special abilities. If anything it’s more analogous to asymmetrical MP where one side is all equal and the same while the other is the opposite, wildly different and unique. The focus isn’t killing either. For Human’s it’s about the objective. For Zombies it’s impeding their progress towards the objective. It’s also not a game about one shot kills either. Both Humans and Zombies take time to kill

So 343.

When making default Infection in H4, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT just copy and paste Infection/Alpha Zombies from Reach right on over like it was copied and pasted into Reach from H3’s Brains. We need a scoring system that marries objective play against kills in an equal setting. We need different weapons used. We need less one shots.

And most importantly? We need a place for community created Infection Variants. My god, I’ve had so much fun with those compared to default Infection, and yet there is no public outlet for them.

2

Halo 3 Zombies were great NOT PERFECT but still great -different game types - maps were good but not perfect -

  • Ranked and social it was one of my playlists of all times

But IT NEEDS TO COME BACK AS A DOUBLE XP WEEKEND ONLY

sorry Just my op

3

>

You’re right, infection definitely needs improvement from how they did it in reach. Just in the complete opposite direction you’re talking about.

Infection is a fun custom game for goofing off. Zombies aren’t supposed to be equal to humans with guns. It’s not supposed to be balanced so zombies have an easy chance to take out the humans.

Zombies in halo was born on maps like foundation with shotty pistols, people boarding up in rooms blocking the doorways with boxes, and getting up to hard to reach places. A true zombie gametype is where the humans have to fight against hoards of zombies with limited ammo trying to survive a time limit, and the zombies have to turn the tides in their favor by infecting players one by one and overwhelming the enemy in numbers.

If you’re the zombie, you’re supposed to be at a disadvantage. This isn’t a competitive matchmaking gametype where you and the opponent are supposed to be equal. You’re edge is in the sheer number of bodies you can throw at the enemy. If you’re a human, you’re edge is that your opponent is weak and you have superior weaponry, but as the game progresses the odds turn in their favor.

In reach’s infection, they first made the mistake of the armor ability being evade. It was less a zombie gametype and more soldiers vs ninjas with how easy it was to roll all over and take out humans single handed. They improved that by adding alpha zombies with the ability being to sprint, but then started blocking off the decent areas to defend with death barriers. Every high-up location where humans could jump to and defend also had multiple points for zombies to attack from that made the spots perfectly balanced. Blocking those spots removes any chance of survival for an average group of people on the human team.

They keep making tweaks so it’s easier for zombies to win, as if it’s a slayer gametype that’s supposed to be evenly balanced for both teams. Which is against the core concept of the zombie gametype. Before it was a matchmaking gametype and people just played it for fun, it didn’t matter if you died as the zombie a lot. As long as you had a decent chance of eventually picking off players, it was a good game.

The main other problem is when the same players are forced to be starting zombies multiple rounds/every round, when there are other players who never have to start as a zombie at all.

Edit: I re-read your original post. It seems your problem is that you’re approaching it like it’s another kind of matchmaking competitive gametype like slayer, worrying about things like how points are scored and how balanced the different sides are, completely ignoring the fact that this is supposed to be a fun custom game, and forgetting the whole concept of zombies.

To me it doesn’t even sound like you want a zombie game, if you don’t want zombies to be outnumbered and for them to be able to face humans head on without getting one shot. That to me sounds like you’d rather just play team slayer.

4

The first few month of the game should not feature any sort of Infection playlist. We need time for the community to craft and test various gametypes and maps. This is where Halo 3 shined and Halo Reach failed. Reach started with a single infection gametype on default maps. Default maps, any of them, are terrible for infection since infection plays by a very different set of rules than any other gametype. Halo 3 did it right, in that it allowed the community to create and test dozens of maps and game variants before a playlist was even considered.

5

Good post op, pretty much hit the nail on the head.

It’s not a game mode I play a lot, far too un-balanced.

6

Default infection needs some updates.
IMO infection should be like this:

  • Maps should be designed for infection.
  • Maps must have weapons (Not just shotguns and pistols) that survivors can pick up. Weapons locations should be random so the maps don’t get repetitive.
  • Original zombies should be weak IMO (1 shot to break shield and headshot to kill).
  • Objective infection (as new game type) where survivors must get to the safe room. (L4D style [humans don’t get points by killing infected]).
7

Infection needs to be double exp weekend only. When it’s only about one weelend a month it’s fun to play and never gets to draged out. If not the maps get old fast, as do the game types and we’re left playing the same three maps over and over again.

8

You nailed it OP, you nailed it.

9

> The first few month of the game should not feature any sort of Infection playlist. We need time for the community to craft and test various gametypes and maps. This is where Halo 3 shined and Halo Reach failed. Reach started with a single infection gametype on default maps. Default maps, any of them, are terrible for infection since infection plays by a very different set of rules than any other gametype. Halo 3 did it right, in that it allowed the community to create and test dozens of maps and game variants before a playlist was even considered.

Halo 3s was perfect add nothing should change
Also I needs to be a double xp weekend playlists only …

10

> > The first few month of the game should not feature any sort of Infection playlist. We need time for the community to craft and test various gametypes and maps. This is where Halo 3 shined and Halo Reach failed. Reach started with a single infection gametype on default maps. Default maps, any of them, are terrible for infection since infection plays by a very different set of rules than any other gametype. Halo 3 did it right, in that it allowed the community to create and test dozens of maps and game variants before a playlist was even considered.
>
> Halo 3s was perfect add nothing should change
> Also I needs to be a double xp weekend playlists only …

Halo 3’s was as good as it was because Bungie allowed the community to refine the Infection gametypes and maps.

I agree though, it should return to a weekend-only playlist, rotating each week with Grifball, Brawl, etc.

11

Infection is what keeps a lot of people playing Halo, specifically Halo Reach, and I doubt they’d remove it or they’d loose a good amount of people.

12

I think humans should start with either a shotgun, or an assault rifle; and that’s it. no secondaries, make each shot count and team shoot to survive.

13

Problem with halo reach infection was the fact if they lunged at you with a sword a shotgun didn’t work, you’d get a bull true but the zombie will still annihilate you. Reach needed to have maps with more of a close quarter feel to it so that zombies had a chance to get in your face.

Also the spawning in reach was horrible, I could spawn kill easily on that trashy forge world map named cage or it’s “remade” version. Halo 3 had it down with the maps they gave us on double exp, It would either be sword forged map on sandbox, foundry forged map, or even a different version of the pit. The maps were generally close quartered and allowed zombies to progress at a fast rate.

Zombies need to be a double exp playlist, great things used or played constantly go stale faster.

14

Two ideas I do agree with are:

Assault rifle starts (ideally team shooting) with weapons like magnums and shotguns placed on the map in zombie contested areas, or something along those lines (weapons only spawn once). This was often how I made my “Resident Evil” zombie gametypes in halo custom games.

A safe haven kind of infection gametype like left 4 dead where the survivors have to reach a few objective checkpoints and win the round once they reach the end, while zombies have to pick them off and stop them.

15

You my good sir are most correct. But these new ideas you want put in will most likely be the new infection and they will copy/paste alpha zombies from reach into default zombies unless you mean default as the new game types then you are right on buddy.

16

Please take a moment to read my proposed changes to the Infection gametype

  • Zombies should earn more points for infecting a human. As it is in Reach, zombies lack the incentive to run out and infect since they’re barely rewarded.
  • Humans should NOT start with a pistol. They should start with a Shotgun and/or Assault Rifle. Their ammo should be scarce and weapons should be put on the map to encourage movement (something Reach Infection lacks).
  • The weapons on the map should be: Assault Rifle (8; mainly for ammo), Shotgun (4), Pistol (2), and Sticky Detonator (1).
  • Maps in Infection should NOT have rooms or areas with only ONE ACCESS. This is a horrible thing for a map to have as it turns the game into a camp fest.
  • A reward system should be in place for zombies; maybe they get a personal ordinance drop after doing well? The rewards could be camo, overshield, or maybe thruster pack?

This (I think) would be the best way to make Infection work in Halo 4, as well as make it a lot more interesting.

17

> Please take a moment to read my proposed changes to the Infection gametype
>
> - Zombies should earn more points for infecting a human. As it is in Reach, zombies lack the incentive to run out and infect since they’re barely rewarded.
> - Humans should NOT start with a pistol. They should start with a Shotgun and/or Assault Rifle. Their ammo should be scarce and weapons should be put on the map to encourage movement (something Reach Infection lacks).
> - The weapons on the map should be: Assault Rifle (8; mainly for ammo), Shotgun (4), Pistol (2), and Sticky Detonator (1).
> - Maps in Infection should NOT have rooms or areas with only ONE ACCESS. This is a horrible thing for a map to have as it turns the game into a camp fest.
> - A reward system should be in place for zombies; maybe they get a personal ordinance drop after doing well? The rewards could be camo, overshield, or maybe thruster pack?
>
> This (I think) would be the best way to make Infection work in Halo 4, as well as make it a lot more interesting.

Great suggestions :wink:

I’m interested in this new playlist they hinted at that would play out on Longbow. Since they are going to a more canon-friendly multiplayer experience, I’m thinking a Red Rover/Riddick-type deal would be more practical than zombies. Basically, instead of the undead infecting the living, it will probably be more of a “keep what you kill.” Not saying custom games can’t be called zombies :wink:

18

> You’re right, infection definitely needs improvement from how they did it in reach. Just in the complete opposite direction you’re talking about.
>
> Infection is a fun custom game for goofing off. Zombies aren’t supposed to be equal to humans with guns. It’s not supposed to be balanced so zombies have an easy chance to take out the humans.

Know what can’t happen with how Infection is set up right now?

Fun.

Or goofing off.

> Zombies in halo was born on maps like foundation with shotty pistols, people boarding up in rooms blocking the doorways with boxes, and getting up to hard to reach places. A true zombie gametype is where the humans have to fight against hoards of zombies with limited ammo trying to survive a time limit, and the zombies have to turn the tides in their favor by infecting players one by one and overwhelming the enemy in numbers.

Just because something has always been done a particular way doesn’t mean it should stay that way.

Infection’s origins may be it’s origins, but it’s a horrible way to play a game. Even a “fun” game.

> If you’re the zombie, you’re supposed to be at a disadvantage.

Then what is my motivation? Why should I go out and die seven times before I can finally kill one guy?

> This isn’t a competitive matchmaking gametype where you and the opponent are supposed to be equal. You’re edge is in the sheer number of bodies you can throw at the enemy.

You ignore the fact that such a situation creates an incredibly demoralizing experience that doesn’t promote you to keep playing the game.

> …survival…

If it was about survival, Humans wouldn’t be scored based on kills.

> I re-read your original post. It seems your problem is that you’re approaching it like it’s another kind of matchmaking competitive gametype like slayer, worrying about things like how points are scored and how balanced the different sides are, completely ignoring the fact that this is supposed to be a fun custom game, and forgetting the whole concept of zombies.

Just because it’s a “fun” game doesn’t excuse it’s glaring problems. The glaring problems with kill any chance of having fun.

19

> The first few month of the game should not feature any sort of Infection playlist. We need time for the community to craft and test various gametypes and maps. This is where Halo 3 shined and Halo Reach failed. Reach started with a single infection gametype on default maps. Default maps, any of them, are terrible for infection since infection plays by a very different set of rules than any other gametype. Halo 3 did it right, in that it allowed the community to create and test dozens of maps and game variants before a playlist was even considered.

Toa.

I love you. Like a brother that is. A brother I barely know but I have to see every Christmas when the families get together.

So it pains me to say this: H3 Infection was just as -Yoinking!- bad as Reach. Arguably worse. Really it doesn’t matter when both are so far in the barrel that they are actively licking the scum off the bottom. The one and only gametype that was arguably any decent was Save One Bullet. Brains? Speed Demons? Creeping Death? Creeping Rockets? All sucked. The community edits? Worthless. Or worse, actually made the maps worse.

I agree that there shouldn’t be an Infection playlist at all when the game first launches if 343 isn’t going to make Infection right. And by right I mean not like H3 OR Reach. That way the community can create their own gametypes and maps.

But in addition to that, there needs to be an outlet for the whacky Infection gametypes that the community creates. Stuff like Cat and Mouse, Hot Pursuit. Those games I have fun playing.

20

> > You’re right, infection definitely needs improvement from how they did it in reach. Just in the complete opposite direction you’re talking about.
> >
> > Infection is a fun custom game for goofing off. Zombies aren’t supposed to be equal to humans with guns. It’s not supposed to be balanced so zombies have an easy chance to take out the humans.
>
> Know what can’t happen with how Infection is set up right now?
>
> Fun.
> Wrong.
>
> Or goofing off.
> Wrong.
>
>
>
> > Zombies in halo was born on maps like foundation with shotty pistols, people boarding up in rooms blocking the doorways with boxes, and getting up to hard to reach places. A true zombie gametype is where the humans have to fight against hoards of zombies with limited ammo trying to survive a time limit, and the zombies have to turn the tides in their favor by infecting players one by one and overwhelming the enemy in numbers.
>
> Just because something has always been done a particular way doesn’t mean it should stay that way.
>
> Infection’s origins may be it’s origins, but it’s a horrible way to play a game. Even a “fun” game.
> No, it’s just not how you want to play. If it were horrible, zombies never would have taken off as a custom game in halo.

> If you’re the zombie, you’re supposed to be at a disadvantage.

Then what is my motivation? Why should I go out and die seven times before I can finally kill one guy?
The off chance that he’ll finally slip up. Or you overwhelm him. Or he eventually runs out of ammo. And because someone has to for the game to progress, and hopefully next round you’ll get to switch places and they’ll do same.

> This isn’t a competitive matchmaking gametype where you and the opponent are supposed to be equal. You’re edge is in the sheer number of bodies you can throw at the enemy.

You ignore the fact that such a situation creates an incredibly demoralizing experience that doesn’t promote you to keep playing the game.
It worked for years before infection became part of matchmaking and players started playing it like try hards.

> …survival…

If it was about survival, Humans wouldn’t be scored based on kills.
How it’s scored is insignificant. You put too much meaning into the scoring. It’s a custom game to have fun first. It was introduced to matchmaking because it was a popular enough gametype, and this provided a means to play it if you couldn’t find a group of friends. Caring about who wins and how they scored is meant for competitive gametypes like slayer. You’re trying to change zombies into something it’s not. You might as well just ask them to make a team slayer variant for you instead.

> I re-read your original post. It seems your problem is that you’re approaching it like it’s another kind of matchmaking competitive gametype like slayer, worrying about things like how points are scored and how balanced the different sides are, completely ignoring the fact that this is supposed to be a fun custom game, and forgetting the whole concept of zombies.

Just because it’s a “fun” game doesn’t excuse it’s glaring problems. The glaring problems with kill any chance of having fun.
Already answered.

Edit: I don’t know what happened to the quotes. My responses are in bold.