I’m going to let the numbers speak for themselves.
Player Retention
For those too lazy to click on the link…
Halo 3: 820,000 Players / 12 Million Hours Played
14.5 hrs of gameplay per individual player
Halo 5: 1 Million Players / 2.5 Million Hours Played
2.5 hrs of gameplay per individual player
If you want sources, click the link and follow the urls that are given.
#ModernizedHaloFTW
I’m not getting where you’re going with this thread. Are you trying to say Halo 5 is going the right way just because it had 200k more players during the beta but less playtime per player and overall playtime or are you saying that Halo 5 is bad because of that?
> 2533274843463464;2:
> I’m not getting where you’re going with this thread. Are you trying to say Halo 5 is going the right way just because it had 200k more players during the beta but less playtime per player and overall playtime or are you saying that Halo 5 is bad because of that?
Read the tag at the end - it’s sarcasm. This guy is purely against Halo 5, yet is still spending far more time arguing against it than doing something useful with his time. Not flaming the op, just noting what is evident from his posts
Not only were these betas compared already in 2 other threads, there is still no solid link in the numbers. Beta play hs no direct impact on full game player retention due to being different products.
H3 beta was actually preferred by much of the Halo 2 community over Halo 3 at launch. But there aren’t any numbers for that case, either. Without solid evidence of retention being tied to the beta (leading to pulling specific gamertags from each), there is nothing to support this claim.
Not to mention how many games out today can touch Halo 3’s numbers? The world today, including gamer culture and standards, is completely different than it was in 2007. Or even 2010.
Edit: not to mention the content of the betas being entirely one sided - a slayer dominated partial sandbox vs a mostly full game on maps (vehicles, bulk of the sandbox, objective games). And an extra week for 3.
> 2533274843463464;2:
> I’m not getting where you’re going with this thread. Are you trying to say Halo 5 is going the right way just because it had 200k more players during the beta but less playtime per player and overall playtime or are you saying that Halo 5 is bad because of that?
Fewer people played more games for longer in the same span of time. That means that H5 is not the right direction. H4 wasn’t the right direction to go, H5 isn’t the right direction to go, so where to now?
> 2535458386964330;3:
> > 2533274843463464;2:
> > I’m not getting where you’re going with this thread. Are you trying to say Halo 5 is going the right way just because it had 200k more players during the beta but less playtime per player and overall playtime or are you saying that Halo 5 is bad because of that?
>
>
> Read the tag at the end - it’s sarcasm. This guy is purely against Halo 5, yet is still spending far more time arguing against it than doing something useful with his time. Not flaming the op, just noting what is evident from his posts
>
> Not only were these betas compared already in 2 other threads, there is still no solid link in the numbers. Beta play hs no direct impact on full game player retention due to being different products.
>
> H3 beta was actually preferred by much of the Halo 2 community over Halo 3 at launch. But there aren’t any numbers for that case, either. Without solid evidence of retention being tied to the beta (leading to pulling specific gamertags from each), there is nothing to support this claim.
>
> Not to mention how many games out today can touch Halo 3’s numbers? The world today, including gamer culture and standards, is completely different than it was in 2007. Or even 2010.
>
> Edit: not to mention the content of the betas being entirely one sided - a slayer dominated partial sandbox vs a mostly full game on maps (vehicles, bulk of the sandbox, objective games). And an extra week for 3.
It’s not sarcasm. The numbers speak for themselves. Yes I’m against the overall experience in H5, but that doesn’t effect the numbers.
So two threads are bad where as the hundreds of thousands of “Sprint ruins H5” threads aren’t? I fail to see having one that shows a different perspective being bad. Also the beta is a good indication of how people are going to play the game. If they give up on it after 2.5 hours, then that’s not going to change when the game doesn’t change at launch. Nothing major changed in the updates. We still have the same maps, same weapons, and same abilities. So I’d say it’s a good indication of how the game is going to go.
So you’re saying that unless I go pull out all the gamertags who played the H3 beta and tie it to who played the final release, the numbers are bogus? That’s sounds like you just don’t like the facts at hand and you’ll just claim “BS” at every turn. How about you go find out the numbers and prove me wrong that people playing H3B for so long wouldn’t go out and get the game? I think that’s a better way to argue than to say it’s BS unless I provide more info. The whole point was that if H5 is “so fun” because it’s a modern version of Halo that people want to play, why aren’t players playing more than an average of ~2.5 hours?
No games touch Halo 3s numbers because there is no “Working” game out there like H3. If MCC worked at launch, I would place money on the fact that it would have more people playing and much higher sales figures. People would still play the hell out of each Halo game (Minus H4) because that’s what people want to play. It sold over a million units in it’s first week. H4 sold 3.4M over it’s entire lifespan. Selling almost a third as many games in 1 week vs 2 years… I think those numbers can speak for themselves also. Especially since the games were remakes/ports.
Your edit makes it sound like Slayer isn’t the most popular gametype out there. BTB Slayer, 4v4 Slayer… people don’t care. It’s slayer. Halo is mostly dominated by Slayer gametypes. Even gametypes like Fiesta are a Slayer variant. Your point doesn’t invalidate anything towards the comparison. Just because it doesn’t have vehicles doesn’t mean people aren’t going to play. CoD doesn’t have vehicles (last I checked) and people still play that game like it’s heroin.
How about we wait until the game launches in around 9 months before we say it will fail. Sounds good? Feel free to criticize the player drop off all you want when it launches, but please don’t make accusations based on a beta 9 months before retail release.
> 2533274832290972;6:
> How about we wait until the game launches in around 9 months before we say it will fail. Sounds good? Feel free to criticize the player drop off all you want when it launches, but please don’t make accusations based on a beta 9 months before retail release.
Because once it fails, people will say anything to defend why it failed without looking at the real issues. People have been saying for years what does and doesn’t work in Halo. The people who have been invested in Halo since the beginning, but the people who make the game, who have publicly been promoted as people who “Hate” Halo (Hate was the literal term used by 343 employes about their feelings towards classic Halo), are the ones who refuse to listen and want to make a “Modern Halo” game. We’ve seen “Modern Halo” and it failed. Putting a different frosting on a moldy cake won’t make it taste any better. Halo is not what 343 is pumping out and they refuse to believe it due to pride or whatever.
People are going to say it was because it was too competitive or that no one wants Arena Shooters anymore, because those are the terms 343 has used to describe H5, when the game is not that competitive (it could be and has potential, but many changes need to be made), and the only thing that resembles Arena Shooters is same starts and weapons/power ups on map. People are going to point the finger at the wrong issues just like they did with Reach and H4. First it was AAs, then it was loadouts, then it was ordinance, and all along most of it can be attributed to Sprint. The others were factors as well, but 343 refuses to acknowledge that Sprint isn’t for Halo until you completely change the game and make it Not Halo.
> 2533274839151243;5:
> > 2535458386964330;3:
> > > 2533274843463464;2:
> > > I’m not getting where you’re going with this thread. Are you trying to say Halo 5 is going the right way just because it had 200k more players during the beta but less playtime per player and overall playtime or are you saying that Halo 5 is bad because of that?
> >
> >
> >
> > Read the tag at the end - it’s sarcasm. This guy is purely against Halo 5, yet is still spending far more time arguing against it than doing something useful with his time. Not flaming the op, just noting what is evident from his posts
> >
> > Not only were these betas compared already in 2 other threads, there is still no solid link in the numbers. Beta play hs no direct impact on full game player retention due to being different products.
> >
> > H3 beta was actually preferred by much of the Halo 2 community over Halo 3 at launch. But there aren’t any numbers for that case, either. Without solid evidence of retention being tied to the beta (leading to pulling specific gamertags from each), there is nothing to support this claim.
> >
> > Not to mention how many games out today can touch Halo 3’s numbers? The world today, including gamer culture and standards, is completely different than it was in 2007. Or even 2010.
> >
> > Edit: not to mention the content of the betas being entirely one sided - a slayer dominated partial sandbox vs a mostly full game on maps (vehicles, bulk of the sandbox, objective games). And an extra week for 3.
>
>
> It’s not sarcasm. The numbers speak for themselves. Yes I’m against the overall experience in H5, but that doesn’t effect the numbers.
>
> So two threads are bad where as the hundreds of thousands of “Sprint ruins H5” threads aren’t? I fail to see having one that shows a different perspective being bad. Also the beta is a good indication of how people are going to play the game. If they give up on it after 2.5 hours, then that’s not going to change when the game doesn’t change at launch. Nothing major changed in the updates. We still have the same maps, same weapons, and same abilities. So I’d say it’s a good indication of how the game is going to go.
>
> So you’re saying that unless I go pull out all the gamertags who played the H3 beta and tie it to who played the final release, the numbers are bogus? That’s sounds like you just don’t like the facts at hand and you’ll just claim “BS” at every turn. How about you go find out the numbers and prove me wrong that people playing H3B for so long wouldn’t go out and get the game? I think that’s a better way to argue than to say it’s BS unless I provide more info. The whole point was that if H5 is “so fun” because it’s a modern version of Halo that people want to play, why aren’t players playing more than an average of ~2.5 hours?
>
> No games touch Halo 3s numbers because there is no “Working” game out there like H3. If MCC worked at launch, I would place money on the fact that it would have more people playing and much higher sales figures. People would still play the hell out of each Halo game (Minus H4) because that’s what people want to play. It sold over a million units in it’s first week. H4 sold 3.4M over it’s entire lifespan. Selling almost a third as many games in 1 week vs 2 years… I think those numbers can speak for themselves also. Especially since the games were remakes/ports.
>
> Your edit makes it sound like Slayer isn’t the most popular gametype out there. BTB Slayer, 4v4 Slayer… people don’t care. It’s slayer. Halo is mostly dominated by Slayer gametypes. Even gametypes like Fiesta are a Slayer variant. Your point doesn’t invalidate anything towards the comparison. Just because it doesn’t have vehicles doesn’t mean people aren’t going to play. CoD doesn’t have vehicles (last I checked) and people still play that game like it’s heroin.
Look at your tag regarding modernized halo ftw. Yeah, that is sarcasm.
Those threads weren’t bad. There was even civil discussion and actual numbers. So why make a new thread? Especially when you’re making a claim with circumstantial evidence, and then saying anyone debating your claim should look at the numbers or gather the data against your claim. That’s ridiculous - you’re creating correlation where there is absolutely none to use. At least the other threads tried to apply math to the stats at hand for prof of their points.
You could release the SAME Halo 3 beta now, and I would only have a fraction of the original numbers. Is not about the games alone, and you ignore factors you cannot even measure, including how many players stopped with Halo altogether (or worse in some minds, became more causal due to life and growing up).
I never said anything about slayer not being popular. But to have nothing but slayer (and 4v4, smaller maps with no vehicles and less weapons) is a factor that would cause many btb players or objective players not to play as long. Yure comparing a nearly complete game to a game that may or may not be adding features still at this point in development, against odds with fans over the mcc.
If you’re going to make claims and keep pushing your ideas of hypothetical failure to launch, then you might want to at least try to bring your argument down to earth with some realistic material. Or acknowledge differences that clearly have an impact on games in beta 7 years apart.
> 2533274839151243;1:
> I’m going to let the numbers speak for themselves.
>
> Player Retention
>
> For those too lazy to click on the link…
>
> Halo 3: 820,000 Players / 12 Million Hours Played
> 14.5 hrs of gameplay per individual player
>
> Halo 5: 1 Million Players / 2.5 Million Hours Played
> 2.5 hrs of gameplay per individual player
>
> If you want sources, click the link and follow the urls that are given.
>
> #ModernizedHaloFTW
Just because Halo 3 Beta had more players won’t change my opinion on Halo 5. I will buy Halo 5, and no one will change that.
I guess this proves that people were less interested in playing H5 than H3 since most gamers can play for countless hours, all this says about H5 is barely anyone could be bothered playing at least 2.5 hours before they got sick of it while obviously H3 did better since it had a higher average of players playing for longer periods of times.
But make it even worse for H5 Is the ratio that is barely 2.5 million players against 12 million Halo 3 players. Now if that doesn’t show that 343i messed up bad with H5 then I have no clue what to say to them. The only reason I’m even considering H5 is for the campaign because the multiplayer was awful. 343i really need to rebuild the game from the ground since H5 is not meeting the demand obviously.
> 2533274829873463;10:
> I guess this proves that people were less interested in playing H5 than H3 since most gamers can play for countless hours, all this says about H5 is barely anyone could be bothered playing at least 2.5 hours before they got sick of it while obviously H3 did better since it had a higher average of players playing for longer periods of times.
> But make it even worse for H5 Is the ratio that is barely 2.5 million players against 12 million Halo 3 players. Now if that doesn’t show that 343i messed up bad with H5 then I have no clue what to say to them. The only reason I’m even considering H5 is for the campaign because the multiplayer was awful. 343i really need to rebuild the game from the ground since H5 is not meeting the demand obviously.
Not meeting demand? Despite the large pre-order base/fans that will buy on release (like myself) confirming their interest in the game? There’s demand being met.
Community feedback (regardless of one’s stance), release info being teased at (art book date w/ Josh tweeting in response), etc all show that release will be met. So unless some unfathomable thing occurs, it won’t be delayed. With almost 6 months to release (pending press release/confirmation), the game is well into being set how it is. The beta numbers are irrelevant to release pop. Numbers, and player retention should be based on a solid, fully functional product. Not a limited scope beta of 3 games types.
If you guys hate the game so much as it is, post beta feedback, then you’re arguing for a lost cause.
> 2533274839151243;4:
> Fewer people played more games for longer in the same span of time. That means that H5 is not the right direction. H4 wasn’t the right direction to go, H5 isn’t the right direction to go, so where to now?
No where, because devolving down to Halo 2 / 3 isn’t the right direction either.
I’m more surprised that despite Halo 4 turning off a huge part of the fanbase, the Halo 5 beta still brought back a lot of people and was as well received as it was.
> 2533274826802205;12:
> > 2533274839151243;4:
> > Fewer people played more games for longer in the same span of time. That means that H5 is not the right direction. H4 wasn’t the right direction to go, H5 isn’t the right direction to go, so where to now?
>
>
> No where, because devolving down to Halo 2 / 3 isn’t the right direction either.
How do you know that “devolving” to a Halo 2/3 style game is the wrong direction? We have not had a classic styled Halo game since Halo 3, so to say that is the wrong direction is nothing but your opinion.
I really don’t think the numbers mean all that much on their own, you have to put context in to it. I for instance didn’t play the beta very much, but I enjoyed it a lot and will buy halo 5. The reason I didn’t play it much is because I’d got assassins creed unity for christmas and was spending most of my gaming time on that, not to mention with working in a pub I was super busy over the beta period.
> 2533274826802205;16:
> > 2533274797967716;14:
> > > 2533274826802205;12:
> > > > 2533274839151243;4:
> > > > Fewer people played more games for longer in the same span of time. That means that H5 is not the right direction. H4 wasn’t the right direction to go, H5 isn’t the right direction to go, so where to now?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No where, because devolving down to Halo 2 / 3 isn’t the right direction either.
> >
> >
> >
> > How do you know that “devolving” to a Halo 2/3 style game is the wrong direction? We have not had a classic styled Halo game since Halo 3, so to say that is the wrong direction is nothing but your opinion.
>
>
> How do you know it’s the right direction? To think that stripping everything down to Halo 2 / 3 levels is the right direction is nothing more than your opinion as well.
>
> Personally, I think 343 should work harder to find a middle ground to satisfy everyone, or stop developing Halo and move on to a new IP.
Yes it is my opinion that they should go back to the classic style of Halo 1-3, because like i said we have not seen how a classic style Halo game will do in today’s market, and i think a Halo 1-3 style game would be a breath of fresh air in the FPS market
The other reason why i think they should go back, is because some of the things the Spartan Abilities try to accomplish can be done in ways that don’t have as many negatives as spartan abilities provide.
Faster gameplay can be accomplished by increasing the base player speed, increasing the FoV, having faster player acceleration & deceleration and smaller maps.
Clamber can be replaced with clever map design, on a wall at the peak of your jump there is a small ledge that you can jump off of but you can’t stand on.
Also i agree that they should move on to a new IP, because i don’t think that there is really a middle ground that can satisfy everyone, maybe a lot of fans but not everyone.
> 2535458386964330;11:
> > 2533274829873463;10:
> > I guess this proves that people were less interested in playing H5 than H3 since most gamers can play for countless hours, all this says about H5 is barely anyone could be bothered playing at least 2.5 hours before they got sick of it while obviously H3 did better since it had a higher average of players playing for longer periods of times.
> > But make it even worse for H5 Is the ratio that is barely 2.5 million players against 12 million Halo 3 players. Now if that doesn’t show that 343i messed up bad with H5 then I have no clue what to say to them. The only reason I’m even considering H5 is for the campaign because the multiplayer was awful. 343i really need to rebuild the game from the ground since H5 is not meeting the demand obviously.
>
>
> Not meeting demand? Despite the large pre-order base/fans that will buy on release (like myself) confirming their interest in the game? There’s demand being met.
>
> Community feedback (regardless of one’s stance), release info being teased at (art book date w/ Josh tweeting in response), etc all show that release will be met. So unless some unfathomable thing occurs, it won’t be delayed. With almost 6 months to release (pending press release/confirmation), the game is well into being set how it is. The beta numbers are irrelevant to release pop. Numbers, and player retention should be based on a solid, fully functional product. Not a limited scope beta of 3 games types.
>
> If you guys hate the game so much as it is, post beta feedback, then you’re arguing for a lost cause.
Large? Doesn’t seem that large for what it supposed to be a flag ship series. Barely under 200k here. I might have understood the low count if it was a game like Halo 3 so don’t lie/mislead people.
Of course there forcing a release because they know they will lose a lot of money if they don’t push the release. Actually the beta population is important since it shows the amount of people interested enough to want to play it. People mainly MCC to check out H5 so yes checking if the beta interests people is very important because that’s how 343i gain any feedback since it be pretty poor if barely anyone was interested in playing the game which is what happened. Also many of us have already posted feedback but like you said there trying to force a release date to be close and from my own professional point of view I know there’s no way they’ll be able to make all the changes without a delay because if they don’t then they really haven’t listened much to the fans feedback.
End of day it should be obvious that 343i are doing something wrong when the beta was failing to gain peoples general interest which has been backed up by facts by the OP.
> 2533274829873463;18:
> > 2535458386964330;11:
> > > 2533274829873463;10:
> > > I guess this proves that people were less interested in playing H5 than H3 since most gamers can play for countless hours, all this says about H5 is barely anyone could be bothered playing at least 2.5 hours before they got sick of it while obviously H3 did better since it had a higher average of players playing for longer periods of times.
> > > But make it even worse for H5 Is the ratio that is barely 2.5 million players against 12 million Halo 3 players. Now if that doesn’t show that 343i messed up bad with H5 then I have no clue what to say to them. The only reason I’m even considering H5 is for the campaign because the multiplayer was awful. 343i really need to rebuild the game from the ground since H5 is not meeting the demand obviously.
> >
> >
> >
> > Not meeting demand? Despite the large pre-order base/fans that will buy on release (like myself) confirming their interest in the game? There’s demand being met.
> >
> > Community feedback (regardless of one’s stance), release info being teased at (art book date w/ Josh tweeting in response), etc all show that release will be met. So unless some unfathomable thing occurs, it won’t be delayed. With almost 6 months to release (pending press release/confirmation), the game is well into being set how it is. The beta numbers are irrelevant to release pop. Numbers, and player retention should be based on a solid, fully functional product. Not a limited scope beta of 3 games types.
> >
> > If you guys hate the game so much as it is, post beta feedback, then you’re arguing for a lost cause.
>
>
> Large? Doesn’t seem that large for what it supposed to be a flag ship series. Barely under 200k here. I might have understood the low count if it was a game like Halo 3 so don’t lie/mislead people.
> Of course there forcing a release because they know they will lose a lot of money if they don’t push the release. Actually the beta population is important since it shows the amount of people interested enough to want to play it. People mainly MCC to check out H5 so yes checking if the beta interests people is very important because that’s how 343i gain any feedback since it be pretty poor if barely anyone was interested in playing the game which is what happened. Also many of us have already posted feedback but like you said there trying to force a release date to be close and from my own professional point of view I know there’s no way they’ll be able to make all the changes without a delay because if they don’t then they really haven’t listened much to the fans feedback.
> End of day it should be obvious that 343i are doing something wrong when the beta was failing to gain peoples general interest which has been backed up by facts by the OP.
First of all, I’m not the one lying and misleading people. That is what that info graphic is doing - data with very little actual facts in it, creating correlation where none exists. Do you have set items to gauge someone’s interest level? Not playing well in a party or waiting long periods of time between games tends to put the off of playing more. This was networking/UI working against the players, since the gameplay itself worked more or less as intended.
Failing to understand what specifically was different between the betas, not to mention those largely associated with Halo 3 that fell off after reach/4 and actively did not want to play 5,is what makes this information misleading. There is not a comparison to be drawn that could logically support the conclusions. These weren’t done back to back or side by side. They weren’t done by the same company, or in the same market conditions. Let alone on different consoles. I’m not justifying the smaller numbers, but saying what the OP says about retention is merely speculation.
We don’t have a working mcc for everyone. That alone put people off of the beta, either directly through not playing it, or indirectly by hoping for things like better/working matchmaking and parties.
All of that is unrelated to the gameplay itself, but plays a bigger factor in the grand scheme of things. How many games could you play per hour in one versus the other? We know plenty of variety existed in 3 over 5 in terms of gametypes, weapons, and vehicles. It wasn’t a forced arena environment, either.
Before you call someone a liar, please take the time to observe the whole picture, without your zoomed in perspective and bias. Even reach beta vs 3 would be hard to compare, but at lead the variables overall were of a smaller margin.
Since a few days have past, I’ll follow up with what I was getting at with my original post…
Basically what I was getting at with the numbers was that H5 doesn’t capture peoples interests the same way as H3 did. People claiming that the market is different, there are more games, people becoming more casual for life reasons, etc doesn’t really have any weight on the numbers. People want to play a game that is fun. When people have fun with a game, they put hours and hours into it. When I play MCC and it’s actually working, I get lost in the game and play for hours upon hours. I have a job that requires over 40 hrs/week, I play Rugby, I have bills to pay, family to visit, and pets to care for. But I still can sink hours into MCC when it’s working properly. Same with GTAV when I’m having fun.
When people only get sucked into the game for 2.5 hours, that really doesn’t bode well with the game in the long run. Will H5 sell well… Yes. But that’s because it’s a Halo game. Also people will have fun with it for a while. Maybe a few months, half a year, a full year… but people won’t sink years into the game. That is what H3 did. For years it was at the top of the population charts. It beat out 3 separate CoD games to remain at the top of the list for population on XBL until Reach came out. After Reach came out, many people jumped over to Reach. H2 was very similar until H3 came out.
The numbers are showing that people aren’t as interested in H5 compared to H3. People being more interested in AC: Unity or Battlefield or GTA or Spark, whatever, shows that people would rather do other things than play Halo 5 and that beta was FREE. A FREE BETA and people wanted to play other games. That’s what is so glaring about the “2.5 average hours per person” statistic. It’s not about saying H5 is a bad game, it’s not about saying H5 needs to go back to the drawing board and become a H2/3 clone. It’s about the fact that the game isn’t going to retain a high population. That was the only thing I was pointing out with the numbers. If you came to other conclusions, then you were reading too far into it.
I responded to a few people and my personal opinion is that the game could be a lot better without changing a lot of things. My fixes would mean the game release would have to be pushed back to at least 2016, but if that’s what it would take to get a Halo game that I feel would have a long, healthy lifespan, so be it.
The changes I would make would be:
TL;DR - H5 doesn’t capture people’s attention and hold them in like the older Halo games did regardless of the “modern” changes to the series. Small changes wouldn’t change the new direction, but it would make the game resemble the Halo that held people’s attention and probably help the game be more successful beyond the initial sales from launch and into it’s lifespan.
