The grapple shot also known as the grappling hook counts as a EQUIPMENT. It fills up the grenade slot and so that means its limited. In the demo you can see the grapple hook with a number next to it
Shouldn’t be in halo.
That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
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> That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
What about carrying one or 2 at a time
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> > 2535419441797248;3:
> > That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
>
> What about carrying one or 2 at a time
If you mean carrying multiple uses of the grapple hook, then that’s where I believe the Upgrades come in. You’ll be able to increase its capacity, to make consecutive shots.
> 2535467938018614;4:
> > 2535419441797248;3:
> > That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
>
> What about carrying one or 2 at a time
And there is a 9 or 10 second cooldown
> 2535467938018614;1:
> The grapple shot also known as the grappling hook counts as a grenade. It fills up the grenade slot and so that means its limited. In the demo you can see the grapple hook with a number next to it
You have misinterpreted the information a little bit.
- If you watch the gameplay again, you will see the hook occupies the equipment slot not the grenades slot. - It seems to work as a default if you have no equipment picked up. - It also recharges over time, to one charge. You can watch this happen after chief uses the grapple to scale the steep cliff.I have many problems with how it is currently utilised within the sandbox. And I would like to see the grapple shot changed to a one-use pickup in campaign, with the aesthetic of being a banished piece of equipment. Here is a link to a thread discussing potential changes to the grapple shot. Where I have outlines my reasons for wanting these changes:
> 2535419441797248;3:
> That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
I disagree with this statement. I think limiting the ability would not make it redundant. But would rather make the player think more about what the best use of the ability is. Similarly to picking up a heavy weapon, it has an ammo count forcing you to think about what enemy’s you are going to use the limited ammo on. This is good sandbox gameplay.
I would also like to make the point that over-use of this piece of equipment will cause it to get old fast. And the constant availability of it will cause gameplay to play out quite similarly. Whereas if it is a pickup it will give extra mobility in certain areas, causing variation, but also allow for intense situations where you cannot escape/ progress via use of this movement mechanic and instead have to utilise another part of the sandbox.
> 2533274816735326;2:
> Shouldn’t be in halo.
Armour lock was in Halo I very much doubt grapple will be much worse than that or any of the past armour abilities that were in past games complaining about it seems like a broken record when comparing to past abilities that were far more game changing than this.
> 2535459240369445;8:
> > 2535419441797248;3:
> > That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
>
> I disagree with this statement. I think limiting the ability would not make it redundant. But would rather make the player think more about what the best use of the ability is. Similarly to picking up a heavy weapon, it has an ammo count forcing you to think about what enemy’s you are going to use the limited ammo on. This is good sandbox gameplay.
>
> I would also like to make the point that over-use of this piece of equipment will cause it to get old fast. And the constant availability of it will cause gameplay to play out quite similarly. Whereas if it is a pickup it will give extra mobility in certain areas, causing variation, but also allow for intense situations where you cannot escape/ progress via use of this movement mechanic and instead have to utilise another part of the sandbox.
Ammo is not the same as a cooldown, so that’s a false comparison. All the cooldown will do is make players wait, just as they do for their shields when they’re down, except now they’ll have wait before moving forward. The only time that waiting is unlikely will be on higher difficulties, where the player is unable to stay in one spot.
The second point is pretty dependent on the player, as to whether they’ll get bored of it quickly or not.
> 2535419441797248;10:
> > 2535459240369445;8:
> > > 2535419441797248;3:
> > > That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
> >
> > I disagree with this statement. I think limiting the ability would not make it redundant. But would rather make the player think more about what the best use of the ability is. Similarly to picking up a heavy weapon, it has an ammo count forcing you to think about what enemy’s you are going to use the limited ammo on. This is good sandbox gameplay.
> >
> > I would also like to make the point that over-use of this piece of equipment will cause it to get old fast. And the constant availability of it will cause gameplay to play out quite similarly. Whereas if it is a pickup it will give extra mobility in certain areas, causing variation, but also allow for intense situations where you cannot escape/ progress via use of this movement mechanic and instead have to utilise another part of the sandbox.
>
> Ammo is not the same as a cooldown, so that’s a false comparison. All the cooldown will do is make players wait, just as they do for their shields when they’re down, except now they’ll have wait before moving forward. The only time that waiting is unlikely will be on higher difficulties, where the player is unable to stay in one spot.
>
> The second point is pretty dependent on the player, as to whether they’ll get bored of it quickly or not.
Your right ammo is not the same as a cooldown. That was the point I was making. Ammo is finite and cooldown is infinite:
- Having a finite supply of something means you will need to put a lot of thought in how you use your supply. Like the rocket launcher. - While having an infinite supply of something requires less thought, as you will always be able to use it later. Like the grapple-shot. - This is why I think the grapple-shot should be a one-use pickup and not on cooldown.I am unsure what point you are making about waiting. The grapple-shot cooldown in the trailer did not appear to me to require you to stand still or not to sprint. It simply just replenished about ten seconds after use.
I don’t think that it is fair to say it is dependent on the player. I did games-design at university, and players tend to take the route of least resistance/ most effective route, especially in intense moments, especially in shooters. So, for example, let’s blow this to the extreme, you are surrounded by enemies and you have to get out- Pre-grapple shot you need to fight you’re way out or die, this will be intense for the player and they will be forced to improvise, struggle and fight for their life. With grapple-shot, they will escape the situation, to maybe higher cover or just further away. This provides a breath of fresh air to the player allowing them to fight back more effectively. So…
Grapple-shot is definitely useful in this way but makes the game easier for the player and less intense. In game-design, it is well known that if you make the player more powerful, you have to then increase the threat to the player in order to add back challenge and intensity to the gameplay. This is done in almost every game. So, taking this principle, in order to make the game intense/fun/challenging with a permanent movement buff, such as grapple-shot, the devs will need to add more enemies, bigger enemies etc.
(On a side note movement mechanics are especially hard mechanics to balance in this way, fast/mobile enemies are normally attempted as a solution, like the crawlers and teleporting enemies in halo 4,5 which I found very boring to fight. Although maybe a goliath from Halo wars 2 could be fun, combined with some elites, in an arena like environment, such as the mausoleum of the arbiter in halo 2)
This new gameplay could be really fun… but with this increased difficulty (gameplay designed for the grapple-shot mechanic), the player will have to use it or they will most likely die or at-least have an unbalanced experience. Meaning that the choice there is not on the player, because a choice between using the grapple-shot a lot or die/suck at the game is not a choice. Now maybe I know what you’re thinking, the devs shouldn’t/ won’t design the gameplay around the grapple-shot mechanic, so that players don’t have to use it. But this will mean that the players using it, will dominate the game, this will remove intensity for those players and as I said earlier the majority of players tend to do whatever is most effective aka grapple-shot and so the experience will be less intense for the majority of players.
The point I have made above is why I think it should be a pickup. Because you can now have some gameplay designed around using the grapple-shot, and some gameplay not. The devs simply need to make the grapple-shot available to players in instances designed around its use and not available in instances not designed around its use. Having grapple-shot as a one-use mechanic or at the very least a limited-use mechanic, makes design a lot easier for the devs, as less needs to be changed to the already winning formula to make grapple-shot experiences fun and intense. Meaning it is more likely we will get a fun and balanced game.
Sorry if I went off on one a little bit haha.
> 2535467938018614;1:
> The grapple shot also known as the grappling hook counts as a EQUIPMENT. It fills up the grenade slot and so that means its limited. In the demo you can see the grapple hook with a number next to it
Hi, if you watch again you will see it is on cooldown. Specifically, look at where master-chief used the grapple-shot to scale the cliff at 5:40 in the halo infinite demo. Before scaling up the cliff, it said “1” next to the grapple-shot, it is then deployed causing the number to drop to “0”, 10 seconds later at 5:50 it is recharged.
From this footage, you could deduce that maybe you will be able to pick up multiple grapple shots, although it is also possible that the use of the “1” is just to make it clear to the player that it has recharged. The second one sounds more likely to me since it seems strange to have both a cooldown and a supply and it wouldn’t make sense as far as reloading the device is concerned. Either way what you can take from this is that the supply of the grapple shot is not limited by a number of uses, but by time. Personally I think this is a mistake and that the grapple-shot should definitely be limited by use, for many reasons, but mainly because it is going to always act as a get out of jail free card in fights if one grapple-shot is constantly available and constantly replenishing for you to use.
(And sorry I have just realised I have come after you twice like this, but I would like to hear how you think the grapple-shot should be involved in the game?)
> 2535459240369445;11:
> > 2535419441797248;10:
> > > 2535459240369445;8:
> > > > 2535419441797248;3:
> > > > That’s not exactly going to change anyone’s mind on the thing, and limiting such an ability kind of makes it redundant. I would expect it to be on a cooldown.
> > >
> > > I disagree with this statement. I think limiting the ability would not make it redundant. But would rather make the player think more about what the best use of the ability is. Similarly to picking up a heavy weapon, it has an ammo count forcing you to think about what enemy’s you are going to use the limited ammo on. This is good sandbox gameplay.
> > >
> > > I would also like to make the point that over-use of this piece of equipment will cause it to get old fast. And the constant availability of it will cause gameplay to play out quite similarly. Whereas if it is a pickup it will give extra mobility in certain areas, causing variation, but also allow for intense situations where you cannot escape/ progress via use of this movement mechanic and instead have to utilise another part of the sandbox.
> >
> > Ammo is not the same as a cooldown, so that’s a false comparison. All the cooldown will do is make players wait, just as they do for their shields when they’re down, except now they’ll have wait before moving forward. The only time that waiting is unlikely will be on higher difficulties, where the player is unable to stay in one spot.
> >
> > The second point is pretty dependent on the player, as to whether they’ll get bored of it quickly or not.
>
> Your right ammo is not the same as a cooldown. That was the point I was making. Ammo is finite and cooldown is infinite:
> - Having a finite supply of something means you will need to put a lot of thought in how you use your supply. Like the rocket launcher. - While having an infinite supply of something requires less thought, as you will always be able to use it later. Like the grapple-shot. - This is why I think the grapple-shot should be a one-use pickup and not on cooldown.I am unsure what point you are making about waiting. The grapple-shot cooldown in the trailer did not appear to me to require you to stand still or not to sprint. It simply just replenished about ten seconds after use.
>
> I don’t think that it is fair to say it is dependent on the player. I did games-design at university, and players tend to take the route of least resistance/ most effective route, especially in intense moments, especially in shooters. So, for example, let’s blow this to the extreme, you are surrounded by enemies and you have to get out- Pre-grapple shot you need to fight you’re way out or die, this will be intense for the player and they will be forced to improvise, struggle and fight for their life. With grapple-shot, they will escape the situation, to maybe higher cover or just further away. This provides a breath of fresh air to the player allowing them to fight back more effectively. So…
>
> Grapple-shot is definitely useful in this way but makes the game easier for the player and less intense. In game-design, it is well known that if you make the player more powerful, you have to then increase the threat to the player in order to add back challenge and intensity to the gameplay. This is done in almost every game. So, taking this principle, in order to make the game intense/fun/challenging with a permanent movement buff, such as grapple-shot, the devs will need to add more enemies, bigger enemies etc.
>
> (On a side note movement mechanics are especially hard mechanics to balance in this way, fast/mobile enemies are normally attempted as a solution, like the crawlers and teleporting enemies in halo 4,5 which I found very boring to fight. Although maybe a goliath from Halo wars 2 could be fun, combined with some elites, in an arena like environment, such as the mausoleum of the arbiter in halo 2)
>
> This new gameplay could be really fun… but with this increased difficulty (gameplay designed for the grapple-shot mechanic), the player will have to use it or they will most likely die or at-least have an unbalanced experience. Meaning that the choice there is not on the player, because a choice between using the grapple-shot a lot or die/suck at the game is not a choice. Now maybe I know what you’re thinking, the devs shouldn’t/ won’t design the gameplay around the grapple-shot mechanic, so that players don’t have to use it. But this will mean that the players using it, will dominate the game, this will remove intensity for those players and as I said earlier the majority of players tend to do whatever is most effective aka grapple-shot and so the experience will be less intense for the majority of players.
>
> The point I have made above is why I think it should be a pickup. Because you can now have some gameplay designed around using the grapple-shot, and some gameplay not. The devs simply need to make the grapple-shot available to players in instances designed around its use and not available in instances not designed around its use. Having grapple-shot as a one-use mechanic or at the very least a limited-use mechanic, makes design a lot easier for the devs, as less needs to be changed to the already winning formula to make grapple-shot experiences fun and intense. Meaning it is more likely we will get a fun and balanced game.
>
> Sorry if I went off on one a little bit haha.
My bad. I misunderstood your initial issue with the grapple gun, and your thoughts of how it should be.
When explaining your point online, it’s always better to give a little extra arguement than not enough haha.