Frustration with Handling of the Forerunners

Community Halo Universe
1

Just my opinion.

Before 343 took handle of the canon (after Reach), the basic assumption behind the Forerunners was this:

  • The most advanced race of their time
  • The only widespread race of their time
  • They were ancient humans
  • They were the first and only to face the Flood, and no one else had ever done so

Now, that has all been basically reversed.

Instead, it turns out that several other races were space-faring along with them, and were also comparable in technology. One of these races was humanity itself, which lays to rest the pretty cool concept that Forerunners were ancient humans. The stupidest part, however, is that humanity and another familiar race, the San-Shyuum, faced the Flood and BEAT IT.

Although the stupidest part is that the Forerunners and Humanity had a war between each other afterward, and the Forerunners won and destroyed everything. Leaving the question: why have humanity in there at all?

It’s absolutely pointless and counteracts a the big plot twist in Halo 3, where 343 Guilty Spark explicitly calls Master Chief a Forerunner. Why have Bungie build up all this evidence and then retcon it?

The line of logic is that humanity can beat the Flood, the Forerunners can beat humanity, but they can’t beat the Flood? What kind of logic is that? Also, the Forerunners can beat the Precursors, an actually kind of cool idea as well, the Precursors of whom also are more advanced than the Forerunners and perhaps developed or captured the Flood.

But the Forerunners couldn’t beat the Flood.

When I first started playing Halo, I kept asking myself why the Forerunners lost to the Flood when they had all this advanced technology to fight it: Sentinels, Enforcers, and the like. But then again, you see them in battle against the Flood throughout the series, and they aren’t too efficient. So whatever, they lost.

Then Halo 4 comes around with the Prometheans.

At first I though they were totally separate from the Forerunners, but then I realized that in the last Terminal of Halo: CEA, 343 Guilty Spark mentions Didact and the Prometheans, Didact of whom has been confirmed in Halo 4.

So they not only had the Sentinels and the Enforcers, but a whole other department of artificial soldiers even more lethal? AND THEY STILL LOST AGAINST THE FLOOD?

It just blows my mind as to why 343 had to retcon the Forerunner=Human deal at all. It worked well and made sense. This whole new situation makes no sense and is really unnecessary.

While I always had and do still have faith in 343, I find how they handled the Forerunners to be really, really dumb. The fact that they seem to be centering this next trilogy around them is a bit unsettling coupled with this. I just hope that the games are handled with more care than the books and such.

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I wouldn’t call it a reversal, just an elaboration; nothing contradicted anything Bungie had.

  1. It’s never clarified what the exact circumstances were when the Flood first came to the galaxy; Humanity sacrificed part of its’ population, may have found a cure, or the Flood just chose not to infect. More information will probably be in Silentium.

  2. The Forerunners fought a war with Humanity because they thought Humanity was invading their planets, but didn’t know about the Flood.

  3. Guilty Spark called Chief a Forerunner because he could’ve been going rampant, or because the Forerunners designated Humanity as Reclaimers. Plus, there’s probably some genetic similarities because the Precursors created both of them.

  4. Guilty Spark could have been talking about the actual Forerunner Prometheans, and not the ones on Requiem in the CEA Terminals. The Didact hasn’t been confirmed for Halo 4, but he’ll likely be in it.

  5. 343i knows what they’re doing; we knew next to nothing about the Forerunners before the novels. I definitely wouldn’t call this unnecessary.

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I will just like to start out by saying you cannot get mad at 343 for not following an assumption.

When was it ever assumed by the masses that they were the most widespread and ancient humans? this is the first i have ever heard of that.The Didact made it clear in IRIS that they weren’t the first to fight the flood.

I don’t see how it is stupid that humanity and the shan shyuum beat the flood when in the lore (even before 343 came along) both races were highly adept at medical technology. if anything it is a reinforcement and complement to the established lore.

It isn’t stupid that the forerunners won seeing as they only won because humanity was fighting two wars at once and didn’t go all out against the forerunners. It was made clear in cryptum that they were alive due to them knowing about the cure, though from a lifeworker’s angle they were going to survived regardless.

Forerunner is a Title and this isn’t a retcon since there were never any facts on the forerunners.

What is with the line of logic that if you can use a gun you can develop the cure for cancer? We have absolutely no information on the war with the precursors and the primordial left out keywords when talking about that event. such as the forerunners couldn’t follow them out of the galaxy implying others could and more if you where to pay attention.

The forerunners can beat the flood i don’t understand where this idea that they couldn’t arouse from. They lost to the flood due to them being arrogant by not preparing for them and ignoring them when they first started to attack. not to mention it is against forerunner philosophy to completely annihilate a race hence why they were trying to find a way to remove the floods aggersive habits if not a cure. you need to read (more carefully) cryptum, Iris, and the halo 3 terminals.

If you noticed the sentinels and enforcers really aren’t good at fighting the flood since they are more defensive; something the forerunners are good at maintaining.

The promethean constructs are not the same as the warriors -_- the warthog isn’t the same as the animal.

Um when was “The Didact” confirmed for halo 4? because as i recall we don’t know if it is the didact or bornstellar.

You do (well you don’t) understand that by time they started fighting the flood seriously it had already took over dozens of solar systems and had millions of ships. the flood won by having the numerical advantage since it only takes one ship to crash into a populated building for a planet to be taken over. planets, that we know from the human-forerunner war that are not protected by anything. Just like the human-covenant war it is the navel battles that matter not how many troops you have.

It blows my mind that you are so upset they didn’t follow what you assumed about the forerunners and are labeling it as a stupid retcon.

4

> basic assumption

Wanted to stop reading here ut forced myself not to. Here lies the most glaring problem with your post…

> - The most advanced race of their time
> - The only widespread race of their time
> - They were ancient humans
> - They were the first and only to face the Flood, and no one else had ever done so

  1. This has not changed. The Precursors were driven back millions of years before, the San’Shyuum were mostly exterminated by the Halo’s firing at Janjur Qom, and Ancient Humanity was devolved 10,000 years before the Halos were activated.

2)See above.

  1. Nope, this idea was abandoned in Halo 3 with the release of The Cradle of Life and Halo 3’s Terminals.

  2. Never any evidence to suggest that, we only had the point of view of the Didact and Librarian in the final years of the Forerunner-Flood war when we know that Forerunner history spans at least 3 million years.

> Instead, it turns out that several other races were space-faring along with them, and were also comparable in technology. One of these races was humanity itself, which lays to rest the pretty cool concept that Forerunners were ancient humans. The stupidest part, however, is that humanity and another familiar race, the San-Shyuum, faced the Flood and BEAT IT.

They didn’t beat it, the Flood retreated because Ancient Humanity had passed the ‘test’ for the Mantle.

Again, the idea that Forerunners became humans was both abandoned and made no sense by the time Halo: The Cradle of Life and Halo 3’s terminals came about which cover the fact that the Librarian was on Earth being observed by Tier 7 humans. She called them special and hinted that they were the key to something to do with the Precursors.

> Although the stupidest part is that the Forerunners and Humanity had a war between each other afterward, and the Forerunners won and destroyed everything. Leaving the question: why have humanity in there at all?

Er… what? That’s like saying “oh well the Covenant were defeated in Halo 3 so what was the point in having them in the games at all?”…

> It’s absolutely pointless and counteracts a the big plot twist in Halo 3, where 343 Guilty Spark explicitly calls Master Chief a Forerunner. Why have Bungie build up all this evidence and then retcon it?

Bungie retconned the idea long before 343i came along (for the umpteenth time - Cradle of Life and H3 Terminals). ‘Forerunner’ is a title, not the actual race name. The Forerunners saw themselves as just another stage in the Living Time of the universe, when they passed the Mantle down to humanity we effectively became the new ‘Forerunners’ - thus “you are Forerunner”.

> The line of logic is that humanity can beat the Flood, the Forerunners can beat humanity, but they can’t beat the Flood? What kind of logic is that? Also, the Forerunners can beat the Precursors, an actually kind of cool idea as well, the Precursors of whom also are more advanced than the Forerunners and perhaps developed or captured the Flood.

Once again, Ancient Humanity did not beat the Flood. Also, your point makes even less sense when one considers that modern humanity defeats the Flood AND A GRAVEMIND when they’re effectively 2 Tiers below Ancient Humanity and the Forerunners.

> But the Forerunners couldn’t beat the Flood.

Because the Flood turned their own technology against them, ravaged their worlds and were completely relentless in their assault. Once again - ANCIENT HUMANITY DID NOT BEAT THE FLOOD, THEY SIMPLY RETREATED WHEN HUMANITY HAD FULFILLED THE TEST FOR THE MANTLE. The Flood were bent on complete annihilation with the Forerunners because they had failed the test.

> When I first started playing Halo, I kept asking myself why the Forerunners lost to the Flood when they had all this advanced technology to fight it: Sentinels, Enforcers, and the like. But then again, you see them in battle against the Flood throughout the series, and they aren’t too efficient. So whatever, they lost.

Irrelevant and contradictory point is irrelevant and contradictory…

> Then Halo 4 comes around with the Prometheans.
>
> At first I though they were totally separate from the Forerunners, but then I realized that in the last Terminal of Halo: CEA, 343 Guilty Spark mentions Didact and the Prometheans, Didact of whom has been confirmed in Halo 4.
>
> So they not only had the Sentinels and the Enforcers, but a whole other department of artificial soldiers even more lethal? AND THEY STILL LOST AGAINST THE FLOOD?

See point above the above…

> It just blows my mind as to why 343 had to retcon the Forerunner=Human deal at all. It worked well and made sense. This whole new situation makes no sense and is really unnecessary.

HOW can Forerunners=humans make sense when the Librarian is on Earth with the trillions of other Forerunners fighting the Flood at the same time as humanity being on Earth in a Tier 7 state. How can that make ANY sense? Greg bear has made this make sense by actually having a story behind Ancient Humanity and how they came to be what they are.

> While I always had and do still have faith in 343, I find how they handled the Forerunners to be really, really dumb. The fact that they seem to be centering this next trilogy around them is a bit unsettling coupled with this. I just hope that the games are handled with more care than the books and such.

Nothing about what they have done with the Forerunners is illogical or non-sensical in any way. You’ve clearly just not been paying any attention to the development of the universe in Halo 3 through the Terminals.

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You need to understand everything to understand it. The Forerunners and Prometheans and stuff are biggee than you might think, and there are a lot of connections to follow to understand most of it with clarity.

An assumption is an assumption. You can’t get mad at them for clarifying an assumption, like Deva Path said.

Here is where you connect everything and take everything into account.

The Flood ended up choosing not to infect Humanity, as a part of the Precursor vengeance plan, unless the Primordial completely lied about that.

Do you realize that “Forerunner” is a title, and not the name of a species? Humans are the Forerunner Reclaimers, reclaiming all they left behind. Logically, this would make them near the status of the Forerunners, hence why Spark likely called John that. Forerunner is a title, and Humanity technically has that title now. Nothing retconned here, just expanded on.

The Forerunners won because the Humans were already weaker from fighting the Flood. And why have Humanity in there at all? Erm… because they are Humanity? We haven’t seen all of the story yet, Humanity is likely still important. There has to be a reason Humans were chosen as Reclaimers. Cryptum and Primordium talk about part of Humanity’s history with the Flood, and how it effects the Forerunner effort against the Flood. Humanity likely still has a role in Silentium.

Again, you have to grasp everything. The Forerunners treated the Flood as a disease, that had to be contained instead of an enemy. Also, the Prometheans, the highest Forerunner warriors, had been pretty much exiled. By the time they treated the Flood as a true threat, they were far behind. Then the Primordial turned Mendicant Bias against the Forerunners, leading heavy attacks and messing with them. All this together caused their downfall, they started off badly and ended pretty badly.

The Flood were different in the Forerunner time. Purer, and they infected Forerunners. Forerunners are extremely powerful alone, now weilded as one army. In the games, we face Human and Covie Flood, weaker than those from the Forerunner times.

Wait, you hate how there were other species in the galaxy besides Forerunners, but accepted a difference between Forerunner and Promethean? Then hated it when Prometheans were revealed to be Forerunners? I don’t understand… and Cryptum made it perfectly clear that Prometheans were Forerunner warriors. You didn’t have to wait for the Anniversary terminals.

As I said before, the Forerunners were late into the actual fight. By the time the Didact (Bornstellar) reestablished control over the war effort, they were at a severe disadvantage already.

It was an assumption, that made it all work.

And, this all works too. You just gotta think about it and connect.

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Every time I read a universe thread I learn an enormous amount of information about Halo! Keep it coming!

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Well I kind of know what you mean… I don’t agree with everything you say but I do feel that the Halo storyline and focus and lost its well balanced edge recently. There is just so much going on in the Halo universe that I can’t help but feel that it’s become a bit… blurred.

I suppose this is the issue when you invite multiple authors to contribute to a fictional world that is potentially a an almost blank canvas.

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> Every time I read a universe thread I learn an enormous amount of information about Halo! Keep it coming!

Honestly, I’ve been absorbing so much Halo information in the past couple of years that I feel like a gravemind!

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> > Every time I read a universe thread I learn an enormous amount of information about Halo! Keep it coming!
>
> Honestly, I’ve been absorbing so much Halo information in the past couple of years that I feel like a gravemind!

Obviously, this is the key ingredient for a Gravemind. That’s why the Flood in CE was so interested in Keyes. He wasn’t just another victim, he was a repository of Halo knowledge! Therefore, our own course of action is to destroy Halopedia. I call shotgun on the Warthog!

All that aside, I thought all the new Forerunner info was pretty dang cool. Yeah, it took some time to absorb, but learning that the Forerunners weren’t perfect beings who treated everybody with equal dignity and were in fact, flawed, complex creatures like us made the Halo Universe even more interesting and deep.

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> The line of logic is that humanity can beat the Flood, the Forerunners can beat humanity, but they can’t beat the Flood? What kind of logic is that?

I like this the most. Logic isn’t always logic…

The Eagles can beat the Giants, the Giants can beat the Cowboys, but the Cowboys beat the Eagles…

By your logic, or the disbelief of the canon logic, that should never happen. One race couldn’t possibly be more advanced in one certain area than another race. Even if the 2nd race is more advance overall. The Didact even said in Cryptum that humans had weapons that the Forerunners couldn’t defend against. The Forerunners had a better command of slipspace, and shut off human supplies. Which is ultimately why the humans lost.