Disclaimer- I am NOT an AI programmer or an expert on the topic. This thread is purely to assess the two sides of the Forgeable AI debate. Now, let’s begin.
Forge has seen numerous upgrades and additions over the span of its life, and with Halo 5’s Forge taking bold leaps into the direction of being a full on map development tool, it seems like, logically, we ask ourselves where forge goes next with Halo Infinite, and most people seem to agree on one thing. AI in Forge and Custom Games would be damn cool as an option to have for many reasons. We’ve seen a glimpse into how cool it is to see how the AI fights you in Warzone (though admittedly, it’s still…very flawed) and how cool it is to see how factions of AI go up against each other in Gamecheat13’s AI battles, as well as other amazing mods.
But hold on there, sport. AI is not as simple as it seems. Now, 343 Industries knows that we want AI in Forge, and I’m fairly certain they want it too. The problems aren’t from a lack of will, but from things such as technical hurdles, time constraints, and resource allocation.
Okay, I’m kind of going all over the place, so I want to break this down a bit.
The Reasons People Want AI
For starters, outside of firefight, warzone, and co-op campaign, AI hasn’t really had much of a presence in multiplayer. Bringing it to Custom Games, Forge, and presumably Social Playlists would be a huge innovation and would be perfect to market the game. It would be an innovation. - AI would ensure that even people that are playing offline or with only a few people could still get an experience akin to online multiplayer. Sure, it’s no replacement for actual players, but it does at least make games feel a bit less empty. - The Covenant, the Flood, and the Prometheans all have their fans, and the latter two their critics. Unfortunately, making all of these work in one game is a near insurmountable task for a Halo game, both technically and canonically. However, factions of objective-based or squad-based AI could allow players to make spectacular game modes with whatever factions they like the best. Now, that is an impossibly tall order, but I think we can all agree that we’d snap up any Halo game that had that level of depth. - Speaking of depth, it would give forgers even more options. Limited as it was, Doom 2016’s SnapMap featured AI that could be programmed with text dialogue and simple behaviors (stop, patrol route, walk, run) as well as be assigned factions. If Forge could expand to include progressive map objectives (think like Invasion, Call of Duty Zombies, etc) then it could allow players to create their own linear missions and maps. It would allow players to make more complex builds than ever before.The Obstacles and Drawbacks
This should go without saying, but no video game AI is human levels of intelligent. They can react fairly predictably, as that’s their entire function. They’re balanced to be predictable so the computer- that knows exactly where you are, how much health, ammo, and grenades you have, what buttons you’re pressing, and so on- can’t just cheat and instakill you in campaign, even on Legendary. (At least, MOST of the time…Halo 5 Hunters and Halo 2 Jackal snipers, looking at you). Because of this, the AI can’t be allowed to do certain things that players are allowed to do. Likewise, players aren’t allowed to do certain things the AI can (tuck & roll, teleportation, chieftain hammer leaps) and a lot of things have to be rebuilt to accommodate for that. - AI would have to be mapped every time a level is edited. The game would have to learn how the AI could traverse the map, what hazards were present (kill barriers, walls, explosives/destructibles), what weapons and vehicles are present, the general layout of the map, and a myriad of other factors. It’s a lot for AI to consider, especially factoring in behavior trees (when AI choose to attack, flee, use grenades, fire their weapons, etc.). - AI in Halo have always had unlimited ammo and bottomless magazines/batteries in their weapons. This is so the CPU doesn’t have to keep track of data that is essentially worthless. To work with multiplayer balancing, this would have to change, otherwise AI with power weapons would have a significant advantage as running out of ammo is not a factor in their behavior. This would be difficult, but not impossible, to counter, but it is a roadblock nonetheless. - Remember when I mentioned how it could give Forge more options? Well…there’s an issue with that. Halo 5’s forge, great as it was, was not accessible to casual players. Only dedicated forgers had the patience to learn how to do anything with it. Once you get it down, you get into a good workflow, but to new players it’s staggeringly complex to say the least. Adding in things like AI scripting nodes (a la Doom 2016), objectives, etc. would be incredibly difficult to sell to a casual audience. Sure, you could opt-in placeholder stuff for basic AI functions (hold, move, engage) but that’s kiddie stuff when compared to what the AI in Halo is actually capable of and it wouldn’t impress.So What Can We Expect from Forge and AI?
Honestly, I’d say it’s too soon to tell. 343 devs have expressed interest in the concept, but the technical hurdles they would need to overcome are intimidating and expensive. But I wouldn’t says it’s all doom and gloom. In fact, the hurdles they’re already making to ensure the return of 4-player split-screen are impressive, something that the majority of triple-A games either can’t achieve or have shifted away from. The Slipspace Engine seems capable of incredible things regarding large entity counts, PBR, and other nerdy techbitec stuff. So I want to ask you all what your thoughts are. Do you think CG/Forge AI in Infinite is reasonable to expect, or do you think it’s destined for later Halo titles, to entice only our imaginations for years more?
Personally, I would love AI in Forge, but to expect it without modding is a bit of a stretch. I think it’ll either be attempted but failed, or it’ll be put on ice until the next Halo game.
It would be nice to see some simple “AI” added to forge like automated turrets or enemies that hold in a certain spot like the marines in WZ. I think most folks are hoping for the addition of bot players which seems like a tall order. Most games (from what I’ve seen) that implement bots are lot simpler than Halo’s multiplayer. Vertical and vehicle gameplay are not as big of an element for games like CS:GO or GoW. Bots in Halo would probably be to ineffective to warrant their creation, although it would be cool to see more automated things in Forge.
I think it’s very likely we’ll see forgeable AI in Infinite to some extent. People have been asking for them for years now and 343 knows this. If games like far cry can get it done there’s no reason as to why Infinte can’t, especially after all the great things that halo 5 did for forge.
Doom 2016 Has bots in its Snap Map Map editor. I’d say that Snap Map is about as advanced of a Map editor as Forge but not for all the same reasons. If 343 Made Infinite’s Forge a fusion of Dooms Snap Map and Halo 5 Forge… we would easily have the best map/game editor out there that isn’t for pc modding.
> 2717573882290912;3:
> It would be nice to see some simple “AI” added to forge like automated turrets or enemies that hold in a certain spot like the marines in WZ. I think most folks are hoping for the addition of bot players which seems like a tall order. Most games (from what I’ve seen) that implement bots are lot simpler than Halo’s multiplayer. Vertical and vehicle gameplay are not as big of an element for games like CS:GO or GoW. Bots in Halo would probably be to ineffective to warrant their creation, although it would be cool to see more automated things in Forge.
Actually Halo 4 DID have automated turrets under the Dominion tab. They could even be assigned to a specific team or neutral in which they just shoot everyone.
I think that 343i might’ve taken most technical concerns into account with the new Slip space engine. No real basis for that thought but I think they can do it. Afterall we did have automated turrets and modders have been able to put actual AI in. It could very well be flawed but AI is AI I just hope that they manage to squeeze the Flood in there.
> 2533274932512744;4:
> I think it’s very likely we’ll see forgeable AI in Infinite to some extent. People have been asking for them for years now and 343 knows this. If games like far cry can get it done there’s no reason as to why Infinte can’t, especially after all the great things that halo 5 did for forge.
To be fair, Far Cry doesn’t implement AI the same way Halo does, because the player isn’t able to do as much at one time.
> 2533274825160595;5:
> Doom 2016 Has bots in its Snap Map Map editor. I’d say that Snap Map is about as advanced of a Map editor as Forge but not for all the same reasons. If 343 Made Infinite’s Forge a fusion of Dooms Snap Map and Halo 5 Forge… we would easily have the best map/game editor out there that isn’t for pc modding.
Thing is, though, SnapMap uses pre-navmapped modules to construct its maps. Halo’s forge is entirely freeform.
> 2533274975565198;6:
> > 2717573882290912;3:
> > It would be nice to see some simple “AI” added to forge like automated turrets or enemies that hold in a certain spot like the marines in WZ. I think most folks are hoping for the addition of bot players which seems like a tall order. Most games (from what I’ve seen) that implement bots are lot simpler than Halo’s multiplayer. Vertical and vehicle gameplay are not as big of an element for games like CS:GO or GoW. Bots in Halo would probably be to ineffective to warrant their creation, although it would be cool to see more automated things in Forge.
>
> Actually Halo 4 DID have automated turrets under the Dominion tab. They could even be assigned to a specific team or neutral in which they just shoot everyone.
>
> I think that 343i might’ve taken most technical concerns into account with the new Slip space engine. No real basis for that thought but I think they can do it. Afterall we did have automated turrets and modders have been able to put actual AI in. It could very well be flawed but AI is AI I just hope that they manage to squeeze the Flood in there.
Only issue with putting in AI just because modders can is that modders (Gamecheat13 in particular) don’t have to have QA tests, they don’t even have to assure that it flows naturally and compliments the gameplay. All the AI battles he does are in Campaign maps for a reason.
> 2533274884108738;9:
> > 2533274975565198;6:
> > > 2717573882290912;3:
> > > It would be nice to see some simple “AI” added to forge like automated turrets or enemies that hold in a certain spot like the marines in WZ. I think most folks are hoping for the addition of bot players which seems like a tall order. Most games (from what I’ve seen) that implement bots are lot simpler than Halo’s multiplayer. Vertical and vehicle gameplay are not as big of an element for games like CS:GO or GoW. Bots in Halo would probably be to ineffective to warrant their creation, although it would be cool to see more automated things in Forge.
> >
> > Actually Halo 4 DID have automated turrets under the Dominion tab. They could even be assigned to a specific team or neutral in which they just shoot everyone.
> >
> > I think that 343i might’ve taken most technical concerns into account with the new Slip space engine. No real basis for that thought but I think they can do it. Afterall we did have automated turrets and modders have been able to put actual AI in. It could very well be flawed but AI is AI I just hope that they manage to squeeze the Flood in there.
>
> Only issue with putting in AI just because modders can is that modders (Gamecheat13 in particular) don’t have to have QA tests, they don’t even have to assure that it flows naturally and compliments the gameplay. All the AI battles he does are in Campaign maps for a reason.
I’ve seen people mod AI into halo 5s forge more specifically on Alpine. To what degree it functions at I don’t know as I haven’t done it myself. But having seen the huge jump they made with Halo 5s Forge I’m feeling pretty confident they can do it.
> 2533274884108738;8:
> > 2533274825160595;5:
> > Doom 2016 Has bots in its Snap Map Map editor. I’d say that Snap Map is about as advanced of a Map editor as Forge but not for all the same reasons. If 343 Made Infinite’s Forge a fusion of Dooms Snap Map and Halo 5 Forge… we would easily have the best map/game editor out there that isn’t for pc modding.
>
> Thing is, though, SnapMap uses pre-navmapped modules to construct its maps. Halo’s forge is entirely freeform.
No true you can make completely custom maps like in Forge as well and they do support AI. It helps that you can script the exact pathing and behavior of the AI. Doom Snapmap - custom map building
> 2533274825160595;11:
> > 2533274884108738;8:
> > > 2533274825160595;5:
> > > Doom 2016 Has bots in its Snap Map Map editor. I’d say that Snap Map is about as advanced of a Map editor as Forge but not for all the same reasons. If 343 Made Infinite’s Forge a fusion of Dooms Snap Map and Halo 5 Forge… we would easily have the best map/game editor out there that isn’t for pc modding.
> >
> > Thing is, though, SnapMap uses pre-navmapped modules to construct its maps. Halo’s forge is entirely freeform.
>
> No true you can make completely custom maps like in Forge as well and they do support AI. It helps that you can script the exact pathing and behavior of the AI. Doom Snapmap - custom map building
Yes, but you build those custom maps inside of modules. Any geometry you place has to be built inside of a module. I know about path scripting, I used to make SMs myself. But that’s for very specific actions.
What if the behaviors were basic like how you could do in Maxis’ Spore? and maybe also make a “forge lite” that would be a dumbed down version without a lot of detail options (just take Halo 3’s for that) so there could still be basic work for casual players. OR have a forge tutorial
> 2533274957051696;13:
> What if the behaviors were basic like how you could do in Maxis’ Spore? and maybe also make a “forge lite” that would be a dumbed down version without a lot of detail options (just take Halo 3’s for that) so there could still be basic work for casual players. OR have a forge tutorial
Problem is, if behaviors are too basic they won’t be fun to engage with and they’ll be useless. Spore’s Galactic Adventures expansion was great for its context, but the AI in that game is not as well developed as Halo’s standard units. If the AI isn’t at least decent, then there’s really no purpose to adding them.
> 2533274957051696;13:
> What if the behaviors were basic like how you could do in Maxis’ Spore? and maybe also make a “forge lite” that would be a dumbed down version without a lot of detail options (just take Halo 3’s for that) so there could still be basic work for casual players. OR have a forge tutorial
Ditto on a forge tutorial. I would be open to “Forge puzzles” similar to Doom’s Snap Puzzles that taught you how to apply what you learned.
I can think of a few ways to implement AI into Forge, and customs.
Player’s could implement NAV Points for AI to use, Forge could generate a nav mesh (Like UE4 can), we have machine learning that could be used with cloud computing.
It is possible, it’s up to i343 to make it happen.
And in my opinion, AI in gaming need to get the same progress leap graphics did.
Halo should lead the way on that.
> 2533274795123910;16:
> The question isn’t if it’s possible, but how.
>
> I can think of a few ways to implement AI into Forge, and customs.
>
> Player’s could implement NAV Points for AI to use, Forge could generate a nav mesh (Like UE4 can), we have machine learning that could be used with cloud computing.
>
> It is possible, it’s up to i343 to make it happen.
> And in my opinion, AI in gaming need to get the same progress leap graphics did.
> Halo should lead the way on that.
I don’t doubt it’s possible, but it seems like a big time investment (Granted Im no developer) to make it happen when most players will prefer to play without them.
> 2717573882290912;17:
> > 2533274795123910;16:
> > The question isn’t if it’s possible, but how.
> >
> > I can think of a few ways to implement AI into Forge, and customs.
> >
> > Player’s could implement NAV Points for AI to use, Forge could generate a nav mesh (Like UE4 can), we have machine learning that could be used with cloud computing.
> >
> > It is possible, it’s up to i343 to make it happen.
> > And in my opinion, AI in gaming need to get the same progress leap graphics did.
> > Halo should lead the way on that.
>
> I don’t doubt it’s possible, but it seems like a big time investment (Granted Im no developer) to make it happen when most players will prefer to play without them.
I’d argue that AI / Bots would be quite good for a number of reasons:
-Practice / Warmup: While campaign certainly help to some degree, being able to fill out a custom match easily if you do not happen to have enough willing friends online is not a drawback, for practicing or warming up.
-Replacement: Bots could potentially be used to replace players who for some reason drop out of a match, heck, with machine learning it could event be possible to get your own bot which plays like you, but that’s another can of pickles.
-Playing what you want: To some extent, you’d be able to play what you want to play which may or may not be available in the MM at that moment. Dependant on how online works for Infinite of course.
-Map testing and balancing: of we go the machine learning route. You could get statistics for your map, which can help with balancing, as the AI easily can run several simulations and sped up too. So you could first off test your own map on your own, and when the AI is considered to have learned the map, further simulations could be run to provide all kinds of statistics for the map creator to use in further developing the map.
Not only that, but an actually advanced AI for Infinite could benefit all other modes as well, and it’d be really good marketing.
It’d be a lot of work, yes, but I don’t think the potential pay-off is anything to scoff at.
If I’m understanding you right, it was done in the snap map mode in Doom so if 343i want to, I don’t see why it couldn’t be done. Personally I’d love to see it
> 2533275010912026;19:
> If I’m understanding you right, it was done in the snap map mode in Doom so if 343i want to, I don’t see why it couldn’t be done. Personally I’d love to see it
Only issue is that Halo’s Forge is entirely freeform. In DOOM you’re restricted to building inside of modules. Custom structures and AI in DOOM’s SM don’t tend to mesh well. Although I will agree that it would be awesome to see in Halo.