I really enjoyed firefight from Halo Reach and was disappointed when it didn’t make it into Halo 4, although I enjoyed Spartan Ops just as much. I also really enjoy forging in both Halo Reach and Halo 4, and I have built a variety of bases in both games. The only problem with forge is after I complete a base I have nobody to use it against.
I think 343 should create an option where you can combine firefight and forge in the next Halo game. For example, a player could customize his/her own base (including weapons, vehicles, and other items) and then use the base to fend off an army of covenant. He/she could also build their own custom map to use in firefight if they wanted to do so. If this addition is not possible I would at least recommenced that the next Halo include the option to battle AI in Custom Game. Therefore, players could just build a base/map in forge and then save it as a custom map in order to battle computer generated enemies in custom game.
Also check out this music video I made using cutscenes from Halo 4’s Campaign and Spartan Ops
Far Cry 3 has AI bad guys and animals in its map editor, and they actually work quite well. If Microsoft wasn’t able to (their willingness to is quite another issue) do this with its flagship title, I’d wonder about their competency. A real map editor in Halo 5 with AI support (and a custom games browser) would be the best thing to ever happen to Halo*.
As much as I would love to be able to Forge on Firefight, it would be next to impossible to successfully implement a “usable” version of it.
The most prominent issue with it is the fact that you actually have to program the AI to the map, they don’t just magically work. The most common way that developers do this is through tools such as NAV-Mesh. From my experience of it, I’ll list the many reasons that make it a fundamentalist pain in the -Yoink-:
NAV-Mesh…
[/li]- Step 1: NAV-Mesh is what tells the AI where it can go, how it can move, and which path it should take to do a specific task. Basically, the general idea is to cover the entire playable sections of the map in NAV-Meshes. Due to the fact that everything can be broken down into triangles, creating the NAV-Mesh is done by plotting out the verticies of triangles… You have to do this in everysquare milimeter of the map.
Step 2: With the map now coated in small red triangles, the next step is to select the preferred paths (or triangles) of the AI. This is essentially telling it where it should attempt to travel. Consider it similar to a highway, you’ve got the NAV-Mesh being the pavement - and the specific lanes being the preferred paths.
Step 3: Once you’ve set down the preferred paths, you now have to designate which paths the enemy takes in each action. You have to specify where it will go to take cover, which ways it will enter the main structure, where it will go upon spawning…
You have to specify this for every triangle on the map. That’s hours and hours of work.
Now, with all of that being said, it would be trememdously laborous and time-consuming for 343i to effectively create a functional UI for this. NAV-Mesh is already extremely tedious with a Mouse and Keyboard, but trying to do it with a Controller…
You’d find more enjoyment in swimming in a pool of Hydrochloric Acid.
Finally, given how much work and misery would derive from both creating a way to implement it, and doing the task itself… Is it really worth it to have Forge in Firefight?
Wouldn’t you rather have all of that effort go into making Forge and Custom Games the best that Halo has ever seen? Wouldn’t you rather have 343i spend that time and money onto giving us an outstanding Campaign, and a groudbreaking Multiplayer?
Well there is this thing called “intelligent systems” that learn as they go.
For multiplayer games they’re mostly called “Dynamic bots”. They learn maps as they play, not being programmed from the start. Well some programming of the map has to be in place, but still.
I don’t actually remember what it’s called at the moment, nor do I have access to it, I don’t even think I have a copy anymore. But in my school we went through a system with a dot that learned to navigate on a grid with holes in it.
Sure, the NAV-mesh needs to be there, “bots” could learn what works and doesn’t.
Timesplitters did it. Unreal Tournament did it. Far Cry 3 did it. Halo can do it too if 343 really wants it too.
Halo used to be about breaking new ground in exciting ways. For Halo: CE it was an epic campaign and good local multiplayer. For Halo 2, it was the online multiplayer. For Halo 3, it was Forge and Theater. And etc.
Now, is it worth it to devote a lot of time and effort into this? That’s up for debate. Personally, I think it would be awesome, but that’s just me. But just don’t tell me that it can’t be done. It can.
> Far Cry 3 has AI bad guys and animals in its map editor, and they actually work quite well. If Microsoft wasn’t able to (their willingness to is quite another issue) do this with its flagship title, I’d wonder about their competency. A real map editor in Halo 5 with AI support (and a custom games browser) would be the best thing to ever happen to Halo*.
>
> *Insert obligatory “in my opinion” here.
>
> ^Heh, I should make that my signature.
THAT…is the power of CryEngine 3. I’ve worked with the engine before, and I must say, it is very well developed and easy to use.
And on the point of Forge in Firefight, I’ll bet they could water down how it works, like instead of having to map where/how/what the AI dropships have to do, to: place a start point, place a drop point, place an exit point, and designate what group it belongs to (A, B, C, etc…) like teleporters (for the other dropships). I’ll bet by now the the Halo engine has AI (dropped enemies that is) that can create their own waypoints.
> Sure, the NAV-mesh needs to be there, “bots” could learn what works and doesn’t.
343 Industries is a large scale gaming company and they should be able to do do something that other game makers have already done. I personally don’t care how they make the forge/firefight work in Halo Xbox One is long as they give it a shot. If it doesn’t work out the first time there is always room for improvement in later Halo games.
Nearly every 1million player titles have a map editor that doesn’t require sooo much effort when programming AI, why shouldn’t Halo(otherwise I will start to doubt…)
I’d love to see a forge mode for firefight. I would imagine it had a somewhat stricter set of options than a normal forge map, though. I could imagine requiring a certain number of enemy spawn points before a map can be played and having a smaller budget for vehicles and weapons than we would otherwise get. Firefight would lose something ever every player could have their own tank and the only enemy is a grunt with a needler. But this could let us put a whole new spin on firefight. Put spawn points inside buildings so we have to take cover outside and try to clear rooms rather than falling back to them when being overrun. If the AI can interact with grav lifts and teleporters, no where would be safe if the creator wants it that way. The possibilities are endless.
I believe that the budget and number of items you are able to use in forge/firefight should not be limited or decreased. If I want to make an overpowered base with a large assortment of weapons, vehicles, and other items to use in firefight I should be able to. Just because it could make the firefight match easier that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed. On the other hand, if you would like to make a map that has few items in order to create a challenging firefight match, than you can do so. Forge/firefight should give players to power to take control of their own firefight match and create a map of their choosing.
> > snip
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> “Always with you, it cannot be done.”
>
> Timesplitters did it. Unreal Tournament did it. Far Cry 3 did it. Halo can do it too if 343 really wants it too.
Try to remember that Timesplitters, Unreal Tournament, and Far Cry have completely different net-code/engines from Halo. With Halo’s net-code, it’s too complicated for the game to allow AI’s to work infinite combinations in map-format. While another person did bring up “Dynamic Bots”, they still won’t properly adjust to endless possibilities that a Forger would achieve without noticeable and game-breaking bugs.
And even if there was bot support for Forge, the game would be limited to 2-players in split-screen for Multiplayer. Another thing with Halo’s net-code is that the AI can’t effectively combat more than two local players. If you were to add bots to multiplayer, you’d be giving up 4-player split-screen.
All the fun that you had during those Friday gamenights would be lost. All of the memories that you had playing Halo with your siblings would no longer live again.
Is it possible? Yes it is.
But is it worth it? No.
> Halo used to be about breaking new ground in exciting ways. For Halo: CE it was an epic campaign and good local multiplayer. For Halo 2, it was the online multiplayer. For Halo 3, it was Forge and Theater. And etc.
We can still have amazing new features that bring innovation to he extreme, but it won’t be bot-support in multiplayer.
> > > snip
> >
> > “Always with you, it cannot be done.”
> >
> > Timesplitters did it. Unreal Tournament did it. Far Cry 3 did it. Halo can do it too if 343 really wants it too.
>
> Try to remember that Timesplitters, Unreal Tournament, and Far Cry have completely different net-code/engines from Halo. With Halo’s net-code, it’s too complicated for the game to allow AI’s to work infinite combinations in map-format. While another person did bring up “Dynamic Bots”, they still won’t properly adjust to endless possibilities that a Forger would achieve without noticeable and game-breaking bugs.
>
> And even if there was bot support for Forge, the game would be limited to 2-players in split-screen for Multiplayer. Another thing with Halo’s net-code is that the AI can’t effectively combat more than two local players. If you were to add bots to multiplayer, you’d be giving up 4-player split-screen.
Where did you get 2 players max against AI from? If FF and CoOp Campaign support 4 players, splitscreen or over Live, then why would custom PvE maps be limited to 2 players? With dedicated servers, and surely a massive refinement in the networking, you’d think that more than 4 players would be able to join in.
> > > > snip
> > >
> > > “Always with you, it cannot be done.”
> > >
> > > Timesplitters did it. Unreal Tournament did it. Far Cry 3 did it. Halo can do it too if 343 really wants it too.
> >
> > Try to remember that Timesplitters, Unreal Tournament, and Far Cry have completely different net-code/engines from Halo. With Halo’s net-code, it’s too complicated for the game to allow AI’s to work infinite combinations in map-format. While another person did bring up “Dynamic Bots”, they still won’t properly adjust to endless possibilities that a Forger would achieve without noticeable and game-breaking bugs.
> >
> > And even if there was bot support for Forge, the game would be limited to 2-players in split-screen for Multiplayer. Another thing with Halo’s net-code is that the AI can’t effectively combat more than two local players. If you were to add bots to multiplayer, you’d be giving up 4-player split-screen.
>
> Where did you get 2 players max against AI from? If FF and CoOp Campaign support 4 players, splitscreen or over Live, then why would custom PvE maps be limited to 2 players? With dedicated servers, and surely a massive refinement in the networking, you’d think that more than 4 players would be able to join in.
The AI can only handle 2 Players on split-screen, it works fine through system-link/Xbox Live. However, it is possible that Cloud Computing could allow the AI to handle 4 local players, but then you’d be restricting Halo 5’s Campaign to Online Only.
Do you want Halo 5 to be online only?
343i would be alienating a significant portion of their audience if they dropped support for people who don’t have a reliable internet connection. That’s not a very pretty picture. In fact, that’s a nightmare.
> The AI can only handle 2 Players on split-screen, it works fine through system-link/Xbox Live. However, it is possible that Cloud Computing could allow the AI to handle 4 local players, but then you’d be restricting Halo 5’s Campaign to Online Only.
>
> Do you want Halo 5 to be online only?
>
> 343i would be alienating a significant portion of their audience if they dropped support for people who don’t have a reliable internet connection. That’s not a very pretty picture. In fact, that’s a nightmare.
So, by being able to forge FF maps, the FF lobby wouldn’t be able to have more than 2 split-screen players, which it already is limited at. I’m really not seeing the problem here.
If the game can function at its normal ability(max2player split-screen) offline, and then make use of the Cloud to allow 4+ players when there is an online connection, wouldn’t that work for both parties? Even if that isn’t possible, 4 player online and 2 player split-screen should still work. FF isn’t the same networking as multiplayer, all this FF Forge mode would do is allow users to make custom FF/PvE maps that they can access through the FF lobby.
> > The AI can only handle 2 Players on split-screen, it works fine through system-link/Xbox Live. However, it is possible that Cloud Computing could allow the AI to handle 4 local players, but then you’d be restricting Halo 5’s Campaign to Online Only.
> >
> > Do you want Halo 5 to be online only?
> >
> > 343i would be alienating a significant portion of their audience if they dropped support for people who don’t have a reliable internet connection. That’s not a very pretty picture. In fact, that’s a nightmare.
>
> So, by being able to forge FF maps, the FF lobby wouldn’t be able to have more than 2 split-screen players, which it already is limited at. I’m really not seeing the problem here.
>
> If the game can function at its normal ability(max2player split-screen) offline, and then make use of the Cloud to allow 4+ players when there is an online connection, wouldn’t that work for both parties? Even if that isn’t possible, 4 player online and 2 player split-screen should still work. FF isn’t the same networking as multiplayer, all this FF Forge mode would do is allow users to make custom FF/PvE maps that they can access through the FF lobby.
Fair enough.
But there are more important matters for 343i to attend to in Halo 5. Ensuring that Custom Games, Theater, and the regular Forge Mode aren’t a total bust again is far more important. Once those issues are resolved, then there is room for Forge in Firefight.
> > > The AI can only handle 2 Players on split-screen, it works fine through system-link/Xbox Live. However, it is possible that Cloud Computing could allow the AI to handle 4 local players, but then you’d be restricting Halo 5’s Campaign to Online Only.
> > >
> > > Do you want Halo 5 to be online only?
> > >
> > > 343i would be alienating a significant portion of their audience if they dropped support for people who don’t have a reliable internet connection. That’s not a very pretty picture. In fact, that’s a nightmare.
> >
> > So, by being able to forge FF maps, the FF lobby wouldn’t be able to have more than 2 split-screen players, which it already is limited at. I’m really not seeing the problem here.
> >
> > If the game can function at its normal ability(max2player split-screen) offline, and then make use of the Cloud to allow 4+ players when there is an online connection, wouldn’t that work for both parties? Even if that isn’t possible, 4 player online and 2 player split-screen should still work. FF isn’t the same networking as multiplayer, all this FF Forge mode would do is allow users to make custom FF/PvE maps that they can access through the FF lobby.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> But there are more important matters for 343i to attend to in Halo 5. Ensuring that Custom Games, Theater, and the regular Forge Mode aren’t a total bust again is far more important. Once those issues are resolved, then there is room for Forge in Firefight.
Obviously the game should be up to the same level of content and quality of previous titles, but without anything new Halo 5 will be a guaranteed flop.
> > > snip
> >
> > “Always with you, it cannot be done.”
> >
> > Timesplitters did it. Unreal Tournament did it. Far Cry 3 did it. Halo can do it too if 343 really wants it too.
>
> Try to remember that Timesplitters, Unreal Tournament, and Far Cry have completely different net-code/engines from Halo. With Halo’s net-code, it’s too complicated for the game to allow AI’s to work infinite combinations in map-format. While another person did bring up “Dynamic Bots”, they still won’t properly adjust to endless possibilities that a Forger would achieve without noticeable and game-breaking bugs.
>
> And even if there was bot support for Forge, the game would be limited to 2-players in split-screen for Multiplayer. Another thing with Halo’s net-code is that the AI can’t effectively combat more than two local players. If you were to add bots to multiplayer, you’d be giving up 4-player split-screen.
>
> All the fun that you had during those Friday gamenights would be lost. All of the memories that you had playing Halo with your siblings would no longer live again.
>
> Is it possible? Yes it is.
>
> But is it worth it? No.
>
>
>
> > Halo used to be about breaking new ground in exciting ways. For Halo: CE it was an epic campaign and good local multiplayer. For Halo 2, it was the online multiplayer. For Halo 3, it was Forge and Theater. And etc.
>
> We can still have amazing new features that bring innovation to he extreme, but it won’t be bot-support in multiplayer.
I never meant bots to replace human players, I meant the enemies, they’re essentially bots as well. A grunt is still a primitive bot on it’s own, so is an elite and an occupied Wraith, as long as it’s not occupied by a human.
So no, not bot support, but have the enemy learn which what works and doesn’t. A system can be made that learns where it’s possible to walk. I found the matlab code I have of a grid and a dot. The dot starts in one position and then travels to another over a grid where there’s “danger”. The “dot” then learns where it can and can’t walk.
If you want it I can post all the necessary codes to run it, provided you have access to matLAB. I’m a little rusty with it yet and haven’t quite figured out how to decrease or increase the number of “danger” zones.
So all in all, changing an existing map in forge, would be possible provided there’s a proficient learning algorithm present and some good A.I to take advantage of it.
343 is definitely able to make a forge/firefight option. The only question is whether or not they are willing to step out of their comfort zone in order to create something new and exciting for halo fans.
I would only like this if Firefight was implemented well, and i mean WELL.
Before this, i would like better firefight variations which are more developed as a survival/horde game.
Also with the option to blur firefight and MM with having two teams each with AI agianst each other etc.
Also I want ideas from this thread implemented before forge firefight.