Forerunners were Yoink! (Cryptum spoilers)

Community Halo Universe
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I mean seriously Ancient Humanity after years of fighting the Flood and losing countless worlds trespassed into a MINOR section of Forerunner space and the Forerunners decide -Yoink- THEM and decide to annihilate Prehistoric Human Civilization. What the hell Forerunners? What happened to the wise and caring Forerunners the Halo games talked about? Did they just not become benevolent until they themselves were near destruction 10,000 or so years later during their war with the Flood?

Not to mention it seems that the Forerunners themselves destroyed the Precursors long long long ago before that. AND then decide to destroy all Precursor artifacts with the Halo Array.

Why should we care about what happens to them again?

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> I mean seriously Ancient Humanity after years of fighting the Flood and losing countless worlds trespassed into a MINOR section of Forerunner space and the Forerunners decide Yoink! THEM and decide to annihilate Prehistoric Human Civilization. What the hell Forerunners? What happened to the wise and caring Forerunners the Halo games talked about? Did they just not become benevolent until they themselves were near destruction 10,000 or so years later during their war with the Flood?
>
> Not to mention it seems that the Forerunners themselves destroyed the Precursors long long long ago before that. AND then decide to destroy all Precursor artifacts with the Halo Array.
>
>
> Why should we care about what happens to them again?

mebby they were butthurt. idk, guess the war with the flood erased their care for the mantle.

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> mebby they were butthurt. idk, guess the war with the flood erased their care for the mantle.

You mean bring back their care for the Mantle.

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I’m pretty sure it said that Humans began taking worlds from the Forerunners because their territory was being attacked by the Flood, so it was just self-defense. Forerunners and especially the Didact felt a sense of regret when they discovered this. If they had known, maybe the Humans and Forerunners would’ve come to a solution together.

As for their war with the Precursors, that hasn’t been confirmed yet.

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> I’m pretty sure it said that Humans began taking worlds from the Forerunners because their territory was being attacked by the Flood, so it was just self-defense. Forerunners and especially the Didact felt a sense of regret when they discovered this. If they had known, maybe the Humans and Forerunners would’ve come to a solution together.
>
> As for their war with the Precursors, that hasn’t been confirmed yet.

Any idea how many years between

  1. The supposed Precursor-Forerunner War and the start of The Forerunner-Flood War

  2. The Human-Forerunner War and the start of The Forerunner-Flood War

?

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  1. They didn’t just trespass into their space, they attacked and annihilated the population of entire worlds. The Forerunner may be pacifists at heart but they’re not wimps either. When they’re forced to retaliate against violent species they do so thoroughly. They only considered the option to actually exterminate humanity but instead found it more humane and appropriate to the beliefs of the Mantle to devolve them so they couldn’t hurt anyone else.

  2. The Forerunner don’t even remember fighting the Precursors. The only person to say they did was the supposed last Precursor and he never elaborated as to why they did this. We will hopefully find out in Primordium.

  3. Forerunner respect living things. Although they were interested in Precursor structures it hardly makes them evil because they attempted to destroy them. Up to that point they thought they were indestructible anyways. It also wasn’t their intention to wipe out all Precursor structures. They just tested the weapon on a planet they knew was free to use as a target.

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> > I’m pretty sure it said that Humans began taking worlds from the Forerunners because their territory was being attacked by the Flood, so it was just self-defense. Forerunners and especially the Didact felt a sense of regret when they discovered this. If they had known, maybe the Humans and Forerunners would’ve come to a solution together.
> >
> > As for their war with the Precursors, that hasn’t been confirmed yet.
>
> Any idea how many years between
>
> 1. The supposed Precursor-Forerunner War and the start of The Forerunner-Flood War
>
> 2. The Human-Forerunner War and the start of The Forerunner-Flood War
>
> ?

Your point being?

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Double post… :\

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> > > I’m pretty sure it said that Humans began taking worlds from the Forerunners because their territory was being attacked by the Flood, so it was just self-defense. Forerunners and especially the Didact felt a sense of regret when they discovered this. If they had known, maybe the Humans and Forerunners would’ve come to a solution together.
> > >
> > > As for their war with the Precursors, that hasn’t been confirmed yet.
> >
> > Any idea how many years between
> >
> > 1. The supposed Precursor-Forerunner War and the start of The Forerunner-Flood War
> >
> > 2. The Human-Forerunner War and the start of The Forerunner-Flood War
> >
> > ?
>
> Your point being?

I asked a question.

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  1. Millions of years ago I think.
  2. 9000-10000 years before Cryptum.

So?

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> 1. Millions of years ago I think.
> 2. 9000-10000 years before Cryptum.
>
> So?

So? Thats it I was just wondering.

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Oh okay.

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> . The Forerunner don’t even remember fighting the Precursors. The only person to say they did was the supposed last Precursor and he never elaborated as to why they did this. We will hopefully find out in Primordium.

I think the last precursor lied about the war
Maybe theres more about the precursors being vanished
to the milky way galaxy

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Now, in Primordium the Timeless One will unleash the flood onto the Forerunners in the legendary planet in Halo 4.

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> When they’re forced to retaliate against violent species they do so thoroughly.

And that is why they were monsters. Poor guardians, really, to adopt such absolutist generalising ideals.

As for the idea of self defense that someone mentioned, it is not really. To an extent it is self defense, but full blown genocide is not. The Forerunner worlds that Humanity attacked could be likened to you being mugged on the street by another person. The Forerunners declaring war on Humanity over this could be likened to you defending yourself from the mugger. Now lets say that you incapacitate the mugger to the point where he is no longer an actual threat. (That could be the Forerunners removing Humanity’s military might, but no more) There is really no need to continue inflicting harm on the attacker, yet what the Forerunners did could be likened to you savagely stamping your heel down upon the unconscious muggers face until you kill him. Wholly unnecessary and barbaric.

Of course, my analogy does not work all that well, but in my favor I think because Humanity is a group of individuals whilst a mugger is merely one individual. It also does not take into consideration circumstances. Why did Humanity do what it did? I find it highly unlikely that the Forerunner bothered to find out why, which somewhat hints at a possible ulterior motive. If there Forerunners did investigate, then they would find the Flood savaging Human worlds and the doubtlessly hundreds of millions of refugees living in camps from having their homes destroyed. Refugee camps ain’t pretty you know. If they did know about all this yet still continued in their brutality then it proves my point about them.

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I thought it was a nice twist on the tale, that humans once had a grand empire that could have gone toe to toe with the forerunners if it hadn’t been for the flood. When I read about them nuking us back to the caveman age, I thought it was similar to the cause and effect of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor and then U.S. dropping the atom bomb on them. Was it necessary? Depends on point of view. I did feel kinda let down by how magnificent they seemed to have made them in the game vs how brutish they felt in the book.

I see the reverence in the game comes from a point of view of being earlier tech vs forerunner Advanced tech. Also the Librarian did seem to be one of the most honorable if not the most honorable of the forerunners and if it wasnt for her love, no sentient life would have been around period from the reckless that fear caused in other forerunners to do atrocious actions. Even though halo 1,2,3 was John117 story, you could almost say it they were the redemption of the forerunners. Almost akin to Star wars 4,5,6 being the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Yes he was bad guy, who did the wrong things for the wrong reasons, but in the end, he finally did the right thing.

Something that i thought neat in the book, was the one forerunner mentioning how similar forerunner and humans are.
How some did feel sorrow for what happened to the humans after they understood what was happening which led to them giving us some “respect”. Even Greg Bear in the book points out, how much of the Forerunner actions would have changed if they had learned it earlier? Probably not much.

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> I thought it was a nice twist on the tale, that humans once had a grand empire that could have gone toe to toe with the forerunners if it hadn’t been for the flood. When I read about them nuking us back to the caveman age, I thought it was similar to the cause and effect of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor and then U.S. dropping the atom bomb on them. Was it necessary? Depends on point of view. I did feel kinda let down by how magnificent they seemed to have made them in the game vs how brutish they felt in the book.
>
> I see the reverence in the game comes from a point of view of being earlier tech vs forerunner Advanced tech. Also the Librarian did seem to be one of the most honorable if not the most honorable of the forerunners and if it wasnt for her love, no sentient life would have been around period from the reckless that fear caused in other forerunners to do atrocious actions. Even though halo 1,2,3 was John117 story, you could almost say it they were the redemption of the forerunners. Almost akin to Star wars 4,5,6 being the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Yes he was bad guy, who did the wrong things for the wrong reasons, but in the end, he finally did the right thing.
>
> Something that i thought neat in the book, was the one forerunner mentioning how similar forerunner and humans are.
> How some did feel sorrow for what happened to the humans after they understood what was happening which led to them giving us some “respect”. Even Greg Bear in the book points out, how much of the Forerunner actions would have changed if they had learned it earlier? Probably not much.

I like how they are flawless god like characters.

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> The Forerunner worlds that Humanity attacked could be likened to you being mugged on the street by another person. The Forerunners declaring war on Humanity over this could be likened to you defending yourself from the mugger. Now lets say that you incapacitate the mugger to the point where he is no longer an actual threat. (That could be the Forerunners removing Humanity’s military might, but no more) There is really no need to continue inflicting harm on the attacker, yet what the Forerunners did could be likened to you savagely stamping your heel down upon the unconscious muggers face until you kill him. Wholly unnecessary and barbaric.

That isn’t even close to being an accurate interpretation. Humanity conquered and exterminated the populations of entire planets. That would be like an enemy storming New York City, killing every single man woman and child. Do you really think the US Military would commit to kicking them out of NY and then calling it quits? Hell No. They would take the fight to the enemy’s home country until their Government was collapsed and destroyed.

We did the same thing to Germany after WWII. We could have kicked them out of France, Poland and all the other countries they invaded but instead be took the fight all the way to Berlin. Killed the Government, hung the Generals and occupied the country for a number of decades. We didn’t exterminate the German civilians but neither did the Forerunner exterminate Humanity.

Humans refused to surrender and fought to the bitter end, eventually committing suicide rather than being captured. So the Forerunner didn’t commit Genocide, the Humans just refused to surrender and fought until they were all dead. The Forerunner actually prevented humanity’s destruction by taking their DNA and then repopulating the Earth. They were devolved specimens but that was only to ensure they wouldn’t be able to harm anyone else again for a very long time. Obviously it has taken humanity 100,000+ years just to reach Tier 3.

> Of course, my analogy does not work all that well, but in my favor I think because Humanity is a group of individuals whilst a mugger is merely one individual. It also does not take into consideration circumstances. Why did Humanity do what it did? I find it highly unlikely that the Forerunner bothered to find out why, which somewhat hints at a possible ulterior motive. If there Forerunners did investigate, then they would find the Flood savaging Human worlds and the doubtlessly hundreds of millions of refugees living in camps from having their homes destroyed. Refugee camps ain’t pretty you know. If they did know about all this yet still continued in their brutality then it proves my point about them.

The Forerunner did investigate and found no real evidence of the Flood. The humans destroyed all knowledge they had on them including the cure they used. All infested planets were glassed and the original ships discovered to carry them were also destroyed. For a long time the Forerunner didn’t even believe the Flood existed. But the Didact still suggested they prepare for it just in case.

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> That isn’t even close to being an accurate interpretation. Humanity conquered and exterminated the populations of entire planets. That would be like an enemy storming New York City, killing every single man woman and child. Do you really think the US Military would commit to kicking them out of NY and then calling it quits? Hell No. They would take the fight to the enemy’s home country until their Government was collapsed and destroyed.

It is an accurate representation, and here is why: Would the US military start slaughtering the people of that hostile nation until almost every man, woman and child was dead and the survivors living in squalor with their culture and identity completely erased? Probably not (I hope not) so this is irrelevant.

Edit: In actual fact, you have inadvertently backed up my point with your analogy by saying that the US would continue to fight until the Government was destroyed. Like what the Forerunners should have done, except that they went too far and initiated a slaughter quite possibly equal to or worse than the Human-Covenant war.

> We did the same thing to Germany after WWII. We could have kicked them out of France, Poland and all the other countries they invaded but instead be took the fight all the way to Berlin. Killed the Government, hung the Generals and occupied the country for a number of decades. We didn’t exterminate the German civilians but neither did the Forerunner exterminate Humanity.

They did exterminate Humanity. 10’000 years after the Human-Forerunner war and the population was in the hundreds of thousands. (Page 127) Reverse time and population growth for 10’000 years and it was probably just a few thousand remaining. The Forerunners went from world to world, bombarding them into dust. Do not tell me that this is not genocide when very likely 99.99% of the species was killed.

> Humans refused to surrender and fought to the bitter end, eventually committing suicide rather than being captured. So the Forerunner didn’t commit Genocide, the Humans just refused to surrender and fought until they were all dead.

Page number from Cryptum that states that this was the case for even some of the worlds that the Forerunners attacked, please.

> The Forerunner actually prevented humanity’s destruction by taking their DNA and then repopulating the Earth.

The Librarian did, the Forerunners at large not. (Pg 113) Were it not for her, the extermination would have been completed.

> The Forerunner did investigate and found no real evidence of the Flood. The humans destroyed all knowledge they had on them including the cure they used. All infested planets were glassed and the original ships discovered to carry them were also destroyed. For a long time the Forerunner didn’t even believe the Flood existed. But the Didact still suggested they prepare for it just in case.

They destroyed the evidence after the Forerunners had committed to exterminating Humanity. It was done in spite. The fact that the Forerunners committed to their war before the Flood was eradicated raises a big stinking question of whether they actually bothered to properly investigate what was causing Humanity’s erratic behavoir, or whether they acted on previous conceptions about Humanity. If they had investigated then they should have found the Flood and the raging conflict on the other side of Human space.

And yes, the Flood were infesting Human worlds concurrently with the beginning of the Forerunner war. It is stated as such on page 272. (“By the time of this heroic struggle, humans were fighting Forerunners as well.”) I find it hard to believe that the Forerunner could find no evidence of this conflict with their reach and resources, when it was happening at the same time as their invasion into Human space.

It sounds to me like the Forerunners acted on impulse, driven by the competition from Humanity over technology and the Mantle, and did not listen to Humanity’s claims of the Flood (Do you seriously expect me to believe that Humanity willingly destroyed their only chance at redemption to stave off the Forerunners?) nor bother to indulge Humanity’s claims by searching until they found their own evidence later, which spurred the High Council to build 12 Halos, the Ark, initiate the Library Project, the detailed planning of repelling any infestation by military means and the shield worlds… Of course they knew, it was just that the Master Builder and his cult of loyalists kept it secret along with the Prometheans. Only the Forerunner general populace was kept in the dark about the Flood’s existence. This is all stated on page 273.

Genocide in this case is generalising an entire people to one set of beliefs. Only someone who has a preconceived conception about those people would do such a thing. That lends credit to the theory that the Forerunners acted on an ulterior motive. How many Humans did not view it as acceptable to take other worlds from other species? How do we know that it was not just the leadership that did this, against the will of the general Human populace? (Similar to how the German people =/= the Nazis when the Jews were being exterminated) Remember, the Humans also believed that they should hold the Mantle. Of course they are going to hold its tenets in some fashion as well. How many innocent people were killed by the Forerunners for beliefs that they did not have then? I should not have to school you on how genocide is immoral.

Edit: I will say again as well, the evidence we have points towards the Forerunners not bothering to look for evidence, nor seriously looking at the evidence that Humanity gave before destroying it in spite, because it would be a bit hard to not notice the refugees swamping Human worlds. That being the obvious consequence of the Flood war having consumed Human worlds, causing Humanity to invade Forerunner territory in the first place. You glossed over that point entirely.

And provide page numbers to back up what you are saying as well.

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> It is an accurate representation, and here is why: Would the US military start slaughtering the people of that hostile nation until almost every man, woman and child was dead and the survivors living in squalor with their culture and identity completely erased? Probably not (I hope not) so this is irrelevant.

No they wouldn’t, which is what I stated below when I said “We didn’t exterminate the German civilians but neither did the Forerunner exterminate Humanity.” The Forerunner only executed those who started the war. The same way we executed the -Yoink!- Generals after WWII.

> They did exterminate Humanity. 10’000 years after the Human-Forerunner war and the population was in the hundreds of thousands. (Page 127) Reverse time and population growth for 10’000 years and it was probably just a few thousand remaining. The Forerunners went from world to world, bombarding them into dust. Do not tell me that this is not genocide when very likely 99.99% of the species was killed.

Can you tell me what Humanity’s population was before both wars started? Can you tell me how many were lost to the Flood during the initial outbreak? According to the book they were desperate enough to invade Forerunner space because they lost so many worlds to the Flood.

Page 270

“By this time, dozens of worlds were fully infested and beyond saving.”

“The infected worlds and even entire star systems were quarantined. Many of the infected escaped, however, and spread the plague to hundreds of worlds in fifteen systems.”

Page 271

“Sacrifice yet again. Fully a third of the human species themselves altered, placed in the pathway of Flood infestation and fight fire with fire by infecting the Flood itself with a destructive set of programmed genes”

Basically Humans had suffered considerable losses against the Flood which led to their desperation to begin with.

> Page number from Cryptum that states that this was the case for even some of the worlds that the Forerunners attacked, please.

Page 272

“Human forces were eradicated and human-occupied worlds were reduced, one by one, until the battle of Charum Hakkor destroyed the last human resistance. The San’Shyuum had already surrendered.”

Humans continued to fight even though their allies had abandoned them. Human worlds were “reduced” but it doesn’t say “eradicated” or “exterminated”. Humans had fallen back to Charum Hakkor for one final stand.

Page 118

“Most of the humans and not a few of the San’Shyumm who were here, committed suicide rather than submit and be removed to another system.”

The few humans who did surrender, as it says most and not all, were most likely the specimens the Librarian was allowed to take back to Earth.

> The Librarian did, the Forerunners at large not. (Pg 113) Were it not for her, the extermination would have been completed.

But she did so with their approval. She was allowed to take the remaining humans back to Earth for deevolution.

Page 122/3

“The Librarian was allowed to preserve some human specimens,”

As for everything else you said…

Page 272

“Many Forerunners, in fact, regarded the entire story of the Flood - for that was the name humans gave to this spreading infestation, this intergalactic disease - as a fabrication designed to absolve humans and San’Shyuum of blame.”

It doesn’t say all but it does say many of them did. Those who didn’t were most likely Prometheans like the Didact. They still did not know the Flood was real but the Didact wanted to prepare for the possibility of their return.

Page 273

“But the possibility of the return of the Flood initiated the events which shaped Forerunner history up to my own time.”

The Didact wanted to research the Flood in order to defend against them but it was the Master Builder who simply wanted to build weapons of mass destruction instead.

“The Didact proposed vigilance and research,”

“He proposed establishing Shield Worlds,”

This was met with opposition and he ended up building all of these things anyways. The Ark and the Shield Worlds were hidden from the Master Builder.

This is what I see happening

  1. Humans encounter the Flood. War starts.
  2. Flood infects hundreds of worlds, many populations lost
  3. Humans become desperate, invade Forerunner worlds
  4. Forerunners attack humans occupying their worlds
  5. Humans cure Flood, sacrifice 3rd of it’s own population to do so
  6. Remaining Humans forced back to Charum Hakkor, make final stand
  7. Humans defeated, survivors returned to Earth by Librarian
  8. Didact warns of possible Flood threat to them, many disagree
  9. Didact proposed good defense, Master Builder says “Best defense is a good offense”
  10. Master Builder now in power begins building WMDs, Didact builds Shield Worlds without approval