Float and Sputter

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

If Specializations return in future Halo titles - which I honestly hope they don’t because they’re superfluous and undermine Halo as an arena FPS - I think three major changes are needed to make them work:

1.) You should only ever be allowed to equip the perks associated with one Specialization at any given time (in addition to the general purpose perks unlocked in earlier levels).

2.) Should you acquire more XP than is required to reach max level in a Specialization, any additional XP should carry over to the first level of the next Specialization you choose (instead of disappearing into the void like it does at present).

3.) Perks unlocked through Specializations need to have a more significant impact on the way players approach the game. Not just, “You picked Wheelman, so you can’t have Mobility.” More like, “You picked Wheelman; your vehicles will be more durable, but your personal shields will recharge 15% slower.”

As I said before though, I think the better solution would be to remove Specializations from future Halo titles altogether. Thoughts?

2

2 makes lots of sense, but 1 and 3 seem to divide base player traits pretty significantly, I’d rather such specializations are not implemented. The point of tactical packages and support upgrades is to give a slight differentiation to accommodate to the player’s play style (for example, if you’re the player who likes to bounce back into the battlefield after being hit, shielding and dexterity are for you). But if a single perk is giving you such significant trait changes (increasing vehicle health significantly and dropping your recharge health notably for example), then that is contradicting their purpose and kind of creating a whole new type of perks despite there being possible balance.

3

I think mods (perks) should be killed with fire (they strip down necessary mechanics and are generally don’t have a place in Halo, even with custom Loadouts), but if they do return I think Specializations should return as well. Allowing you three perks instead of one just because you got it from a specialization is a terrible move. Two perks are much more than enough. So basically no to your idea, though adding negative effects among the more OP positive ones (Stabillity) is a good idea.

4

Also, may I ask WTF is up with the title?

5

So kind of a class-based thing?

6

> Also, may I ask WTF is up with the title?

Halo CE quote. Don’t get the relevance though.

7

> <mark>I think mods (perks) should be killed with fire (they strip down necessary mechanics and are generally don’t have a place in Halo</mark>, even with custom Loadouts), but if they do return I think Specializations should return as well. <mark>Allowing you three perks instead of one just because you got it from a specialization is a terrible move</mark>. Two perks are much more than enough. So basically no to your idea, though adding negative effects among the more OP positive ones (Stability) is a good idea.

You’d only be able to equip two perks at once, but you wouldn’t be able to equip perks from two different Specializations at the same time. So you’d have one Specialization perk (Wheelman, Gunner, etc.) and one general purpose perk (Mobility, Ammo, etc.).

And yes, I agree 100%. If they’re going to stay though, I thought it might be a good idea to have a chat about how they’re implemented in future Halo titles.

> Also, may I ask WTF is up with the title?

The title of the thread doesn’t really have anything to do with the contents therein, it was just the first thing that popped into my head and the only one that stuck when it came time to post. lol

> 2 makes lots of sense, but 1 and 3 seem to divide base player traits pretty significantly, I’d rather such specializations are not implemented. <mark>The point of tactical packages and support upgrades is to give a slight differentiation to accommodate to the player’s play style</mark> (for example, if you’re the player who likes to bounce back into the battlefield after being hit, shielding and dexterity are for you). <mark>But if a single perk is giving you such significant trait changes</mark> (increasing vehicle health significantly and dropping your recharge health notably for example), <mark>then that is contradicting their purpose and kind of creating a whole new type of perks despite there being possible balance.</mark>

Sometimes yes. Mostly no. A lot of the perks available to players in Halo 4 come from abilities their Spartans used to possess - by default - in previous games (I’m lookin’ at you Resupply). The few that actually do cater to different styles of play give too much in exchange for too little.

For example, if a player chooses Wheelman as one of their perks, it makes it nearly impossible for them to be boarded unless they’re being bombarded by overcharged plasma bolts. This means, however, that that player can’t sprint indefinitely or equip a primary weapon in their secondary weapon slot.

But that same player has access to five other loadouts. As such, the deficiencies of one can easily be made up for in another. You can even customize your loadouts in-game, so you never have to deal with a bad decision for more than a few seconds.

Perks need to have downsides, far more than just, “You can have this, but you can’t have this…in this slot. If you take a look at this slot, however…”

8

> > <mark>I think mods (perks) should be killed with fire (they strip down necessary mechanics and are generally don’t have a place in Halo</mark>, even with custom Loadouts), but if they do return I think Specializations should return as well. <mark>Allowing you three perks instead of one just because you got it from a specialization is a terrible move</mark>. Two perks are much more than enough. So basically no to your idea, though adding negative effects among the more OP positive ones (Stability) is a good idea.
>
> You’d only be able to equip two perks at once, but you wouldn’t be able to equip perks from two different Specializations at the same time. So you’d have one Specialization perk (Wheelman, Gunner, etc.) and one general purpose perk (Mobility, Ammo, etc.).
>
> And yes, I agree 100%. If they’re going to stay though, I thought it might be a good idea to have a chat about how they’re implemented in future Halo titles.
>
>
>
> > Also, may I ask WTF is up with the title?
>
> The title of the thread doesn’t really have anything to do with the contents therein, it was just the first thing that popped into my head and the only one that stuck when it came time to post. lol
>
>
>
> > 2 makes lots of sense, but 1 and 3 seem to divide base player traits pretty significantly, I’d rather such specializations are not implemented. <mark>The point of tactical packages and support upgrades is to give a slight differentiation to accommodate to the player’s play style</mark> (for example, if you’re the player who likes to bounce back into the battlefield after being hit, shielding and dexterity are for you). <mark>But if a single perk is giving you such significant trait changes</mark> (increasing vehicle health significantly and dropping your recharge health notably for example), <mark>then that is contradicting their purpose and kind of creating a whole new type of perks despite there being possible balance.</mark>
>
> Sometimes yes. Mostly no. <mark>A lot of the perks available to players in Halo 4 come from abilities their Spartans used to possess - by default - in previous games (I’m lookin’ at you Resupply).</mark> The few that actually do cater to different styles of play give too much in exchange for too little.
>
> For example, if a player chooses Wheelman as one of their perks, it makes it nearly impossible for them to be boarded unless they’re being bombarded by overcharged plasma bolts. This means, however, that that player can’t sprint indefinitely or equip a primary weapon in their secondary weapon slot.
>
> But that same player has access to five other loadouts. As such, the deficiencies of one can easily be made up for in another. You can even customize your loadouts in-game, so you never have to deal with a bad decision for more than a few seconds.
>
> Perks need to have downsides, far more than just, “You can have this, but you can’t have this…in this slot. If you take a look at this slot, however…”

But then why use the perk at all? Perks really aren’t supposed to affect your gameplay majorly like you suggest. Perks are small things that enhance your performance. Besides, by definition, perks are something that give a little bonus; you want a beneficial/consequential ability.

Resupply was created to prevent grenade spamming now that we can carry up to six-nine grenades in multiplayer and also due to the fact sprinting = more map coverage = more grenades likely to be picked up.

9

I think Call of Duty: Ghosts has a Perk system that allows a degree of self-balancing.

Each perk has a set point value, and you have a set amount of points to use to equip perks. More powerful perks cost more, so you have to make trade-offs for less, more powerful effects or more less useful perks.

10

> But then why use the perk at all? Perks really aren’t supposed to affect your gameplay majorly like you suggest. Perks are small things that enhance your performance. <mark>Besides, by definition, perks are something that give a little bonus; you want a beneficial/consequential ability.</mark>
>
> <mark>Resupply was created to prevent grenade spamming now that we can carry up to six-nine grenades in multiplayer</mark> and also due to the fact sprinting = more map coverage = more grenades likely to be picked up.

If 343i truly wanted to prevent grenade spamming, they shouldn’t have put Resupply in the game at all. They also shouldn’t have added the Grenadier or Explosives perks, or instant respawn. Because they did though, 343i has actually made the problem of grenade spamming worse, not better.

You’re right, I do. It’s one thing to be able to say, “My Spartan’s okay; he’s better in vehicles than he is on foot.” It’s quite another to be able to say, “My Spartan sucks on foot, but get him in a Mantis and you won’t believe your eyes!” I’d rather have the second conversation than the first one any day.

11

> > But then why use the perk at all? Perks really aren’t supposed to affect your gameplay majorly like you suggest. Perks are small things that enhance your performance. <mark>Besides, by definition, perks are something that give a little bonus; you want a beneficial/consequential ability.</mark>
> >
> > <mark>Resupply was created to prevent grenade spamming now that we can carry up to six-nine grenades in multiplayer</mark> and also due to the fact sprinting = more map coverage = more grenades likely to be picked up.
>
> If 343i truly wanted to prevent grenade spamming, they shouldn’t have put Resupply in the game at all. They also shouldn’t have added the Grenadier or Explosives perks, or instant respawn. Because they did though, 343i has actually made the problem of grenade spamming worse, not better.
>
> You’re right, I do. It’s one thing to be able to say, “My Spartan’s okay; he’s better in vehicles than he is on foot.” It’s quite another to be able to say, “My Spartan sucks on foot, but get him in a Mantis and you won’t believe your eyes!” I’d rather have the second conversation than the first one any day.

But that just eliminates skill according to your logic. If your spartan is hopping into a vehicle and becoming a badass because of an ability that gives him that power, then you are just creating newb-friendly abilities.

Wait… 343i is making more grenade spamming by creating an optional ability to allow players to be able to pick up grenades when base player traits prevent that from happening? So if 343i didn’t put resupply in the game, should they have just not allowed players to pick up enemy grenades at all in multiplayer? You did say after all “A lot of the perks available to players in Halo 4 come from abilities their Spartans used to possess - by default - in previous games (I’m lookin’ at you Resupply).”, so based on the information from your quote, I’m pretty sure you’d rather resupply be a base player trait which means more grenade spamming. Explosives doesn’t encourage grenade spamming, it just buffs each grenade you throw and Grenadier just gives you one extra grenade, which kind of encourages spamming, but you still can’t pick up enemy grenades.

12

Or we could just have no perks, and the only thing specializations could unlock is new armor.

13

> But that just eliminates skill according to your logic. If your spartan is hopping into a vehicle and becoming a badass because of an ability that gives him that power, then you are just creating newb-friendly abilities.

Except that Spartan is only a badass when they’re in a vehicle. Sans vehicle, that Spartan has to work harder to survive than most others would. If they succeed, they’re actually more skillful, not less.

For example, let’s say that the re-tooled version of Wheelman halves the amount of time you remain stunned after being hit with an EMP, and doubles the amount of health each vehicle you pilot has. Pretty sweet, right? In exchange for those buffs, however, any time you are successfully hijacked, you are killed, and your shields take 20% longer to recover than normal. Suddenly, you’re no longer a guy who’s good at everything, but especially piloting vehicles. Now you’re a guy who’s really good with vehicles, but kind of crap otherwise. If you manage to overcome this handicap, you’re better at the game, not worse.

> Wait… 343i is making more grenade spamming by creating an optional ability to allow players to be able to pick up grenades when base player traits prevent that from happening? So if 343i didn’t put resupply in the game, should they have just not allowed players to pick up enemy grenades at all in multiplayer? You did say after all “A lot of the perks available to players in Halo 4 come from abilities their Spartans used to possess - by default - in previous games (I’m lookin’ at you Resupply).”, so based on the information from your quote, I’m pretty sure you’d rather resupply be a base player trait which means more grenade spamming. Explosives doesn’t encourage grenade spamming, it just buffs each grenade you throw and Grenadier just gives you one extra grenade, which kind of encourages spamming, but you still can’t pick up enemy grenades.

The rules governing the use of grenades in Halo 4 - as I’ve seen - are as follows:

1.) You may only carry two of each of the three grenade types (frag, plasma, pulse).

2.) You may only start each match with two frag, two plasma, or one pulse grenade.

3.) You may not loot grenades off corpses.

4.) Grenades may only be picked up off the map or gained through personal ordnance.

5.) Grenades are not powerful enough to be used on their own, and must be used in combination with firearms and melee to yield maximum benefit.

Left alone, these rules make grenades a valuable asset, something you’re not liable to throw at the first red blip you spot on your radar. Left alone, these rules would’ve rid the game of grenade spamming. As with much of Halo 4 though, 343i couldn’t leave well enough alone and brought two mechanics into the game that break these rules.

The first is perks. Don’t like being limited to two grenades of each type? Grenadier bumps that limit up to three. Don’t like waiting for grenades to spawn on the map, or for that Killing Spree that’ll net you an ordnance drop? Resupply allows you to loot grenades from corpses. Don’t like how grenades are supposed to be used in tandem with your other abilities? Explosives turns each pineapple and blueberry into a miniature nuke.

All three of these perks make grenade spamming worse by giving players access to both more grenades, and more powerful grenades. The more grenades a player has, and the more powerful those grenades are, the more often they’re going to use 'em, and the bigger the problem of grenade spamming becomes.

The second mechanic is instant respawn. Yes, you do get your grenades back every time you respawn regardless of how much time it takes to do so. The problem with instant respawn is that it keeps grenade spam from stopping, especially on smaller maps. Before instant respawn, grenade spamming was still a problem, but it had a lull about every ten seconds or so. It was still annoying, but it came and went fairly quickly. In Halo 4, you’ll be lucky to encounter a lull every minute. It. Never. Stops.

So yes, 343i should have followed through with their decision to remove the ability for Spartans to loot grenades from corpses and NOT made Resupply, Grenadier, or Explosives perks, nor should they have ever implemented instant respawning. The game would have been better for it.

As for my earlier comment on how most of the perks in Halo 4 are abilities your Spartan used to possess by default in previous games, I meant for that to be a statement on how uninspired the design of perks in Halo 4 is. It almost seems like 343i couldn’t come up with anything more interesting for players to mess around with, and decided to carve out all the abilities they used to have and tell players they can only equip two at a time. Does that mean the perks aren’t useful? No, but that’s only because your Spartan is kinda crap without them. Would I like to see most of them return as default abilities? Yes, but with certain exceptions.

14

Sigh. Let’s go ahead and make it class based already. Engineer will be the healer class, rogue will have splinter cell style stealth mechanics, juggernaut will be the tank, hunter will use long range precision, and the last class will use automatics and duel wielding.

Needless to say from my hyperbolic scenario, I’m not a fan of perks. I would prefer to see them maintain the fundamentals of an arena shooter while innovating on top of that foundation rather than instead of the foundation.

15

I think specializations should only unlock special armor, weapon skins, emblems, etc. Stuff that does not affact gameplay.
I think it would be cool to link them with some kind of challenges aside with the regular xp-leveling. That would make them more ‘special’ and you could see if you are worth it to call yourself an master of the stealthy Wetwork specialization for example.
I.e.:
To successfully complete a sniper specialization you would need an extra and certain amount of kills with the different sniper rifles, headshots, snapshots, etc.

Now to the story with the perks:

Halo has always been about equal starts, even in Reach you actually had them.
The current loadout system offers no equality anymore though.
I mean, you have to purchase and unlock all the weapons, AAs, grenades and perks what already causes inequality and unbalance between different players loadouts. Not to mention the unbalance that some items are causing in combination and the harm that some are doing to Halo’s gameplay.
However, in Halo all that stuff should be at least free from the beginning to give every one the same chances and options, only something like weapon skins should be unlockable.

In my opinion perks are simply unnecessary for Halo’s gameplay. They add nothing to it, they just take away/split default game mechanics and some of them even harm gameplay.
To say that perks helped to avoid grenade spamming is just absurd. Perks like Grenadier give you the option to spawn with 3 stickies over and over again. Vehicles get covered with stickies because of that.
There are way easier ways to reduce grenade spam (i.e. spawn with only one grenade) but that is another topic though.

16

> Sigh. Let’s go ahead and make it class based already. Engineer will be the healer class, rogue will have splinter cell style stealth mechanics, juggernaut will be the tank, hunter will use long range precision, and the last class will use automatics and duel wielding.
>
> <mark>Needless to say from my hyperbolic scenario, I’m not a fan of perks.</mark> I would prefer to see them maintain the fundamentals of an arena shooter while innovating on top of that foundation rather than instead of the foundation.

Neither am I. In my first and second posts on this thread I said that I’d rather not have any perks or specializations in future Halo titles; perks because they undermine Halo as an arena shooter, specializations because they’re pointless. What I’m trying to say with this thread is that IF 343i continues to implement a perk system in Halo V, VI, etc., they need to make it more of a class-based system - a la Star Wars: Battlefront - instead of the cheap CoD spin-off it is now.

> <mark>I think specializations should only unlock special armor, weapon skins, emblems, etc. Stuff that does not affact gameplay.</mark>
> <mark>I think it would be cool to link them with some kind of challenges aside with the regular xp-leveling.</mark> That would make them more ‘special’ and you could see if you are worth it to call yourself an master of the stealthy Wetwork specialization for example.
> I.e.:
> To successfully complete a sniper specialization you would need an extra and certain amount of kills with the different sniper rifles, headshots, snapshots, etc.
>
> Now to the story with the perks:
>
> Halo has always been about equal starts, even in Reach you actually had them.
> The current loadout system offers no equality anymore though.
> I mean, you have to purchase and unlock all the weapons, AAs, grenades and perks what already causes inequality and unbalance between different players loadouts. Not to mention the unbalance that some items are causing in combination and the harm that some are doing to Halo’s gameplay.
> However, in Halo all that stuff should be at least free from the beginning to give every one the same chances and options, only something like weapon skins should be unlockable.
>
> In my opinion perks are simply unnecessary for Halo’s gameplay. They add nothing to it, they just take away/split default game mechanics and some of them even harm gameplay.
> <mark>To say that perks helped to avoid grenade spamming is just absurd.</mark> Perks like Grenadier give you the option to spawn with 3 stickies over and over again. Vehicles get covered with stickies because of that.
> There are way easier ways to reduce grenade spam (i.e. spawn with only one grenade) but that is another topic though.

The Commendation system already does that.

Like I said, 343i implemented a great system in Halo 4 that would have reduced - if not removed - grenade spamming. Then they implemented instant respawn, and game-breaking perks, and completely trashed the foundation they built.

17

> Like I said, 343i implemented a great system in Halo 4 that would have reduced - if not removed - grenade spamming. Then they implemented instant respawn, and game-breaking perks, and completely trashed the foundation they built.

A great system to prevent grenade spamming… do you mean making it so you can’t pick up grenades or making it so only some people can pick up grenades?

Regardless, I prefer having grenades available in most encounters if I have made it a priority to look for them seeing as that they are a part of the golden triangle game play. The problem in Reach was that they were powerful enough that they were too powerful and useful in every situation. Grenade spamming in Reach became a problem because grenade spamming was rewarded, not because there were grenades available.

Simply cutting off the supply of grenades doesn’t prevent grenade abuse. It just means you can only abuse them a few times per life and puts a penalty on surviving encounters. Tweak the grenades so that it requires precision in a reasonably controlled environment to be effective and you have solved the grenade spamming problem even if people continue to spam them ineffectively.

18

> The Commendation system already does that.

Sure it does but I think to include something like commendations in a specialization would give both of them more of a meaning.
In my opinion it would be more rewarding to complete a specialization that includes different kinds of commendation and after that you could actually call yourself a sniper or an assassin than to complete a single commendation or simply xp-leveling through a specialization.
And like a said they would give you a lot of customization (special armor, skins, emblems, stances, maybe a decoration for your playercard so other people would know in what you are ‘specialized’) after you completed them successfully to reward people even more.

19

I say if they return make it so they have a large impact but you can only pick one. (since i doubt spartan IV’s are specialized in more than one thing.) These new specializations would be very difficult to get too and will always be on. All other starting perks would be removed as well.

Example

Wetwork- Motion tracker shows you as a blue camo dot, your animations are 50% faster, silent footsteps, footsteps are louder to a Spartan using wetowrk, promethean vision can’t see you and camo last longer and makes you 25% less visible.

Pioneer- More effective and accurate with Forerunner weapons and armor abilities, makes credit cost for armor lower and able to get a earlier levels. Same for any in game content.

Engineer-All spawns weapon/vehicles spawns are known to player, player is notified when power weapons are drooped and where they are.

Tracker- AKA Ordinance Master(only player to get ordinance drops, mainly a support class) Trackers depending on how good their team is doing they will be able to drop supplies from allies. Giving it to them directly or pointing where the drop point would be. Varies between any spawnable item even vehicles.

Rouge-25 % increased aim assist, immune to descope and aim can’t be disturbed by explosives or firearms.

Stalker-Highlighted footsteps of foes allow the tracker to find any target if they kill or harm the Tracker. Tracker also is able to tracker hostile teams most valuable player.

Pathfinder- Automatic weapons never lose accuracy along with an increasing damage when firing at a targets head with automatics, can run at normal speeds with turrets as well as being able to sprint with them, plasma weapons and any vehicles canons take longer to overheat.

Operator- Vehicles are more powerful while an Operator is behind the wheel, Operators can save allies and themselves from w vehicles destruction, stun last half as long,

Just ideas that could change the Specs for the better if you ask me. I might as well just make a thread but it would sort of a -Yoink- move to do that as long as this thread is up.

p.s. i think i order for this to work well, the 1-50 will have to return along with credits. Specializations would cost 5 million credits and minimum require a level or 35 or 40.

Thoughts?

20

@Delko Elite 15

I see you put a lot of thoughts into your idea and it can probably work when it is properly implented, tested and balanced.

But again it would dramatically harm Halo’s equal starts concept because in your idea people who played longer or have the time to play a lot and are capable of reaching a high rank would get an massive advantage over people that do not play so much or simply joined later and are not capable of reaching such a rank.
So your idea would simply follow the rich get richer principle and in the end a minority would probably dominate the majority.