Fixing Dual Wielding By Breaking It.

Dual wielding as it was implemented by Bungie is a mechanic that I don’t think should return. In fact, after loadouts and sprint, I think dual wielding has done the most damage to Halo’s sandbox. Many of Halo’s most unique weapon mechanics were scrubbed from the series and never really returned and in many weapons were severely nerfed in the name of “balance” and stayed that way even after dual wielding was removed. Credit where credit is due, 343 was able to make some of those weapons lethal again(notably the automatic weapons) in Halo 4 and 5 but the dull weapon design often remained.

My main issues with Bungie’s Dual Wielding are as follows:

  • Dual wielding is a close range only affair. None of the weapons have any real mid-long capabilities which means the application of the mechanic is already severely limited. So much time and effort spent “balancing” a mechanic that only works in one combat scenario - Dual Wieldable has no interesting “combos”. Most of the weapons amount to little more than holding down the trigger at close range range until the enemy falls down with little aim or other thought required. Meanwhile the human Pistols are also only effective at close range but have the downside of requiring heashots meaning they are only really useful when used in conjunction with a Plasma Pistol(which themselves are horrible as actual killing weapons in their own right). The Needlers could only really combo with Needlers and you need to double up with maulers just to accomplish what a regular shotgun can. Meanwhile the only sensible combos are ones that pair Plasma/SMG or Plasma/Spiker which themselves are just damage inverted versions of each other. - Removing the ability to both grenade and melee makes dual wielding an even more shallow affair. So not only are they composed solely of close ranged weapons(and bullet sponges at that), but you lose even more depth from the lack of ability to grenade or melee without dropping your other weapon. Meaning other unique features like the Spiker/Mauler Bayonets are even more useless. - Being unable to holster both weapons means that a dual wielding player cannot participate in controlling power weapons or holding objectives which limits both their combat potential and their value as a teammate. - Reducing damage when dual wielding really undermines the whole goal of dual wielding in the first placeAnd honestly with all that I had not given dual wielding a second thought, at least not until MCC and the release of Halo 2: Anniversary.

The addition of the Suppressed SMG into H2A multiplayer got me thinking again. While sadly you cannot use the Scope when dual wielding the M7S, I started to think: “What if you could use the scope while dual wielding?” What if we just got rid of the inane restrictions Bungie placed on the mechanic and really when wild with what dual wieldable weapon design? What if dual wielding didn’t come with such severe restrictions on melee and switching weapons? So I came up with an outline for the goals of new dual wielding.

  • All dual wieldable weapons must be useful as standalone weapons. If each weapon can’t stand on its own then their is no point in bring dual wielding back - Dual wieldable weapons must retain their unique traits when dual wielded. IE: A suppressed SMG must be able to use its scope and a plasma rifle must still have plasma stun, etc. Dual wielding has to be more than just firing moar bulletz. - Likewise all dual wielding combos must be viable in some way. No dualie should be only usable when paired with itself(cough H2 Needler) or paired with one type of weapons. See Again PlasmaRifle/SMG, Plasma/Spiker, Plasma Pistol/Magnum. - Players should be able to melee without dropping their combo. Players already give up grenades, I don’t think they need to give up melee as well. This also gives greater value to Brute dualies like the Spiker and Mauler. - Players should be able to both weapons when switching weapons. Dual wielding players should be able to switch between duals and two handed weapons to allow them to participate in power weapon control without abandoning the entire mechanic. - There should be little or preferably no damage reduction when dual wielding. Dualies should already have a naturally slower time to kill than standard weapons that is made up from via unique abilities ala Plasma Pistol overcharge or Plasma Rifle stun. That being said, it needs to be carefully balanced so as to not drastically outperforming a two handed weapon(Which is one reason dualies still lose the ability to use grenades). - (Optional) I’m open to the idea of dualies being usable with certain objectives ala the flagnum.I certainly don’t think any of this would be easy to implement. I also still perfectly fine without dual wielding as badly designed dual wielidng mechanic would be harder to mitigate or fix than just leaving it with just one weapon at a time.

So I am curious to see what folks think, especially those who previously disliked/hated dual wielding in previous games like I do.

As a bonus I guess I’ll do a quick pitch for a possible dual wielding sandbox
*ODST Style Pistol(not the Tac Mag): It wouldn’t be suppressed, but it would maintain the high rate of fire/lower damage and 4x scope of the ODST version
*Suppressed SMG: This one would follow the ODST SMG pretty closely with the slightly smaller magazine and a 2X scope(ideally “smart scope” as implemented in H5 wouldn’t exist). Less powerful than a CE AR because of the scope, but has better accuracy/versatility and also less powerful than say the BR but is noticably easier to use.
*Plasma Pistol: Would follow closer to an Halo Reach version with higher damage and a lower rate of fire and less powerful tracking
*Plasma Rifle: It wouldn’t have to be visually a PR, but it would mimic a CE plasma rifle with low spread(preferably none), plasma stun(how much is up for debate), and a small heashot multiplier.
*Needler(Maybe): It would have to work more like the Reach version which can only supercombine with unshielded targets to make combinations with other weapons viable. Could take it or leave it.
*Spiker: Weaker Semi-Auto shotgun with better range and rate of fire Something along the lines of this
*Mauler: Now a mini flamethrower that can fire either a close range stream or lob globs of flame, attacks from the front can partially blind enemy players.
*Boltshot: Normal shots function similarly to H4, overcharge fires a more powerful unguided bolt that can damage both health and shields(unlike the PP) but has lower damage(you can’t strip shields in one shot) but a faster cooldown.
*Energy Sword(yes really). Possibly just campaign only, but if melee lunge was removed from all weapons I think their might be some room to sneak it in.

Broadly speaking UNSC weapons would be your long range options, Covenant for mid range, Brute weapons for close range, and Promethean weapons fill something of a middle ground.

So it seems CE is the only true representation of a pure classic halo experience then
My personal view is just leave it out entirely as it breaks more than it solves and frankly it looks cool but that’s about it. Take H2A as an example when I play I exclusively use a BR/carbine and AR combo if possible , as all rest of the small arms in the sandbox is designed around DW and as you stated not so good and you have to sacrifice melee and nades.

If you took out DW altogether and then rebalanced all the other weapons as, a stand alones the game would be a better product, suddenly the whole combat loop is revolutionized and every weapon has a more definite role. CE is a shining example of a sandbox working well together.

Well I am still hoping for lots of different playable character options in Halo infinite I think dual wielding should make a return but can be restricted depending on who you play as.

  • Spartans, Elites, and Brutes only can dual wield one handed weapons like in H2&3 (SMGs, pistols, spike rifles) - ODST, Flood Combat Forms no dual wielding what so ever, (besides dual wielding would ruin ODST Swat game modes) - Promethean Knight Could dual wield just about anything if they wanted to, they have to be a little bit more than just Forerunner equivalent of Spartans. If that means a binary rifle scope incinerator cannon combo so be it.

I do think weapon traits should return, but I wouldn’t want dual wielding to be the go to thing.

Here’s what I said in another thread:

> Probably said many time here, but meh.
>
> The issue that was with dual wielding was the weapons themselves being bad on their own, for dual wielding to not be too powerful.
>
> For dual wielding to actually work, the weapons would have to be usable on their own, while not being too powerful in combo with other weapons during dual wield, and for dual wielding to not be too powerful on its own.
>
> What does a weapon mainly do? Deal damage, for Halo, there has been a difference, probably still is, between shield damage and health damage. In the end though it comes down to TTK. At this moment, there’s a reason we don’t carry a weapon dealing high health damage, and one weapon dealing a high shield damage. Because most weapons deal good damage to both, and precision weapons being instant kills on a shieldless opponent with a headshot.
>
> So here’s how I see it:
>
> First step: Larger difference between shield damage and shieldless damage for all weapons. To the point where you want a high shield damage weapon and a high health damage weapon to switch between as to reach an efficient kill time.
>
> Second: Apply modifiers for single wields, the Plasma Rifle in Halo CE had a slow down effect. Even the ghost had it, making it a fierce opponent to a Scorpion. Other effects would have to be put on other single wields instead of just different DPS.
>
> Third: Either upgrade headshot capable weapons to power weapon status, reserve headshot capability to specific power weapons or a combination of both. Headshot multipliers could be used for some weapons. This’d mean that a weapon like the BR could no longer kill with one bullet to the head, but could have increased damage to the head instead. While a sniper rifle could retain headshot capability.
>
> That is basically the only way I see dual wielding returning as something actually viable. It’d however require a significant overhaul on how damage functions, and weapons behave and function. Which I’m fairly sure many wouldn’t aprove of.
> I mean, if the BR would only have headshot multipliers, not actually headshot capability, there’d probably be quite the uproar.
>
> On the other hand though, I don’t find the idea horrible. It’d be interesting to test having the game with weapons that have long kill times on their own, like 4 or 5 seconds. But combined with another, the kill time would be around what we have now. Dual wielded, or two different two handed non-power weapons. It’d probably bring a different outlook on power weapons. Having a sniper and a different non-power weapon would leave you vulnerable to others.
>
> However I’d like to see dual wielding be so that grenades could be thrown and melee used without ditching the second weapon. Even switching to the other weapon would keep both dual wields in your posession. Allowing you to have up to four different weapons, both slots having two weapons each.
>
> As it is now though, only form of dual wield I see is one weapon being modeled as a two single hand weapons.
>
> Edit: Yes it was cool using two different weapons. I just don’t see that mechanic working as a customs option or banned to campaign alone. You have the control scheme to think about, and that the game has different rulesets between single and multiplayer. I’m not really a fan of the idea that different player mechanics get divided between different game modes.
> Just to illustrate with an extreme case:
> -Armor Abilities for Campaign
> -Dual Wielding for Firefight
> -Spartan abilities for Multiplayer

If a case must be made for dual wielding, why not just introduce a single gun with the dual wield ability? I’m thinking of how the Arkham Knight converts his dual pistols to a sniper in that reveal cutscene. The trade-off would be a waiting period for conversion (like when you wield Promethean guns in H4 for the first time, but not purely cosmetic) and perhaps other things.

Balancing it would probably be difficult so it’d have to be situated out of MP, maybe appearing as a SP easter egg (like the unique H5 weapons) or as a Promethean weapon.

> 2533274819446242;1:
>

All your ideas are very cool on paper, but I think dual wielding is a pain to balance in every single way that I think it is not worth it. And after all the efforts we have seen 343 Industries doing to balance the Halo 5 weapon sandbox to almost perfection, there would be a shame, because dual wielding changes everything.

My solution is basically bring back dual wielding only as a bonus. Just like that glitch in forge where you could mix two weapons and have a binary rifle launching rockets, Dual wielding would be there as an unnofficial mechanic, out of the official playlists but available for Forge and Custom games so people can use and go crazy whatever they want and even dual wield non dual wieldable weapons like two Hydra Launchers and make a firestorm!

My question to OP is, how in the helllogically do you think you can use the scopes on the weapons when you’re dual-wielding? That makes absolutely no sense. And another thing, it makes sense that it’s not meant for long-range encounters; most dual-wieldable weapons are automatics and having 2 firing in 1 hand each makes the recoil even worse, which makes sense.

> 2533275010793662;6:
> > 2533274819446242;1:
> >
>
> All your ideas are very cool on paper, but I think dual wielding is a pain to balance in every single way that I think it is not worth it. And after all the efforts we have seen 343 Industries doing to balance the Halo 5 weapon sandbox to almost perfection, there would be a shame, because dual wielding changes everything.
>
> My solution is basically bring back dual wielding only as a bonus. Just like that glitch in forge where you could mix two weapons and have a binary rifle launching rockets, Dual wielding would be there as an unnofficial mechanic, out of the official playlists but available for Forge and Custom games so people can use and go crazy whatever they want and even dual wield non dual wieldable weapons like two Hydra Launchers and make a firestorm!

Oh trust me, I’m fully aware of the issues with dual wielding regardless of how it is implemented. I could just as easily take it or leave it. I think its more important that we have a full and diverse sandbox before what is still a rule of cool mechanic. If nothing else I think it would be a fun experiment for MCC on PC if we could get mod support.

> 2533274795739611;7:
> My question to OP is, how in the helllogically do you think you can use the scopes on the weapons when you’re dual-wielding? That makes absolutely no sense. And another thing, it makes sense that it’s not meant for long-range encounters; most dual-wieldable weapons are automatics and having 2 firing in 1 hand each makes the recoil even worse, which makes sense.

Um, you click the right stick? If there are two different scopes you click the right stick(or whatever your control scheme is) once for the lower range scope and a second time for the larger scope ala the sniper rifle. If you mean physically how do you aim while dual wielding its called smarts scope. By that I mean the original definition where it was used to explain why you don’t have to physically aim down sights. The scope view just gets sent to your HUD.

If Dual wielding is not meant for anything outside of very close range there is no point in keeping it. Part of the idea includes keeping the keeping the dualie sandbox from being composed of shallow bullet hoses. Most of the weapons don’t have any recoil to speak of in the first place and even if they do this is one area where I think “because super soldier” is a perfectly valid narrative excuse. Recoil can also serve as just another tool we can use to maintain balance between certain types of dualies and standard weapons.

Personally the only way I would want to have dual wielding return is if you picked up a duplicate of the weapon you already have and have it function as a slight damage upgrade

For example, you are walking around with a pistol and you walk over another discarded pistol, and boom, you automatically pick up the second pistol for your off hand. It will still have all the same functionality as a solo pistol would have (melee, grenade, zoom, etc) but with the addition of a slightly higher fire-rate as each pistol would fire one after the other. Gameplay wise the dual weapons would still function like a single weapon: needing only to use one fire button, reloading at the same time (same reload time, just a different animation), and allowing you to still change to your second weapon without losing one of the dual weapons unless you discard the pair entirely.

At best I can see this working for the pistol, especially since most players would start a match with one. Maybe the SMG depending on its power and accuracy, similar argument for the plasma rifle. Also a maybe to the boltshot or whatever equivalent might return. Don’t see it working for the plasma pistol though as it has the charge shot as its secondary function.

I always enjoyed dual wielding especially in Halo 3 because it always angered the competitive “try hard” players on close quarter maps like Epitaph. The SMG-Plasma Rifle Combo would take down any player with a Battle Rifle at close range. Dual wielding SMG’s was also a great way at taking down Banshees on Vahalla as well.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the option to dual wield again. With all the various weapon variations (REQ’s), it’d be entertaining to see what weapons work well together and which ones are just complete trash.

You’re right to say that it’s the biggest wrench thrown into balancing after Sprint and Armor/Spartan Abilities, OP. I’m not much of a defender of Dual Wielding myself, it always felt like a mechanic which was included primarily on the “cool-factor” of the idea of the player being able to run around with two guns at once, rather than a particularly well thought out addition to the game sandbox. In Halo 2, a handful of DW combinations were broken overpowered, which was overcorrected in Halo 3 in which most weapons that could be dual wielded were practically worthless unless they were paired up with another gun… To me, it’s a mechanic that was never that great but is associated nostalgically with the two most popular games in the history of the series.

The problems of implementing it now and making it work somehow with the even larger and more complicated sandbox along with whatever movement mechanics and/or armor abilities 343i decide to include in Infinite (I am almost certain there’ll be something) seems to me like asking for a lot of trouble with regards to balance and competitive design.

> 2533274819446242;1:
> Dual wielding as it was implemented by Bungie is a mechanic that I don’t think should return. In fact, after loadouts and sprint, I think dual wielding has done the most damage to Halo’s sandbox. Many of Halo’s most unique weapon mechanics were scrubbed from the series and never really returned and in many weapons were severely nerfed in the name of “balance” and stayed that way even after dual wielding was removed. Credit where credit is due, 343 was able to make some of those weapons lethal again(notably the automatic weapons) in Halo 4 and 5 but the dull weapon design often remained.
>
> My main issues with Bungie’s Dual Wielding are as follows:
> - Dual wielding is a close range only affair. None of the weapons have any real mid-long capabilities which means the application of the mechanic is already severely limited. So much time and effort spent “balancing” a mechanic that only works in one combat scenario - Dual Wieldable has no interesting “combos”. Most of the weapons amount to little more than holding down the trigger at close range range until the enemy falls down with little aim or other thought required. Meanwhile the human Pistols are also only effective at close range but have the downside of requiring heashots meaning they are only really useful when used in conjunction with a Plasma Pistol(which themselves are horrible as actual killing weapons in their own right). The Needlers could only really combo with Needlers and you need to double up with maulers just to accomplish what a regular shotgun can. Meanwhile the only sensible combos are ones that pair Plasma/SMG or Plasma/Spiker which themselves are just damage inverted versions of each other. - Removing the ability to both grenade and melee makes dual wielding an even more shallow affair. So not only are they composed solely of close ranged weapons(and bullet sponges at that), but you lose even more depth from the lack of ability to grenade or melee without dropping your other weapon. Meaning other unique features like the Spiker/Mauler Bayonets are even more useless. - Being unable to holster both weapons means that a dual wielding player cannot participate in controlling power weapons or holding objectives which limits both their combat potential and their value as a teammate. - Reducing damage when dual wielding really undermines the whole goal of dual wielding in the first placeAnd honestly with all that I had not given dual wielding a second thought, at least not until MCC and the release of Halo 2: Anniversary.
>
> The addition of the Suppressed SMG into H2A multiplayer got me thinking again. While sadly you cannot use the Scope when dual wielding the M7S, I started to think: “What if you could use the scope while dual wielding?” What if we just got rid of the inane restrictions Bungie placed on the mechanic and really when wild with what dual wieldable weapon design? What if dual wielding didn’t come with such severe restrictions on melee and switching weapons? So I came up with an outline for the goals of new dual wielding.
>
>
> - All dual wieldable weapons must be useful as standalone weapons. If each weapon can’t stand on its own then their is no point in bring dual wielding back - Dual wieldable weapons must retain their unique traits when dual wielded. IE: A suppressed SMG must be able to use its scope and a plasma rifle must still have plasma stun, etc. Dual wielding has to be more than just firing moar bulletz. - Likewise all dual wielding combos must be viable in some way. No dualie should be only usable when paired with itself(cough H2 Needler) or paired with one type of weapons. See Again PlasmaRifle/SMG, Plasma/Spiker, Plasma Pistol/Magnum. - Players should be able to melee without dropping their combo. Players already give up grenades, I don’t think they need to give up melee as well. This also gives greater value to Brute dualies like the Spiker and Mauler. - Players should be able to both weapons when switching weapons. Dual wielding players should be able to switch between duals and two handed weapons to allow them to participate in power weapon control without abandoning the entire mechanic. - There should be little or preferably no damage reduction when dual wielding. Dualies should already have a naturally slower time to kill than standard weapons that is made up from via unique abilities ala Plasma Pistol overcharge or Plasma Rifle stun. That being said, it needs to be carefully balanced so as to not drastically outperforming a two handed weapon(Which is one reason dualies still lose the ability to use grenades). - (Optional) I’m open to the idea of dualies being usable with certain objectives ala the flagnum.I certainly don’t think any of this would be easy to implement. I also still perfectly fine without dual wielding as badly designed dual wielidng mechanic would be harder to mitigate or fix than just leaving it with just one weapon at a time.
>
> So I am curious to see what folks think, especially those who previously disliked/hated dual wielding in previous games like I do.
>
> As a bonus I guess I’ll do a quick pitch for a possible dual wielding sandbox
> *ODST Style Pistol(not the Tac Mag): It wouldn’t be suppressed, but it would maintain the high rate of fire/lower damage and 4x scope of the ODST version
> *Suppressed SMG: This one would follow the ODST SMG pretty closely with the slightly smaller magazine and a 2X scope(ideally “smart scope” as implemented in H5 wouldn’t exist). Less powerful than a CE AR because of the scope, but has better accuracy/versatility and also less powerful than say the BR but is noticably easier to use.
> *Plasma Pistol: Would follow closer to an Halo Reach version with higher damage and a lower rate of fire and less powerful tracking
> *Plasma Rifle: It wouldn’t have to be visually a PR, but it would mimic a CE plasma rifle with low spread(preferably none), plasma stun(how much is up for debate), and a small heashot multiplier.
> *Needler(Maybe): It would have to work more like the Reach version which can only supercombine with unshielded targets to make combinations with other weapons viable. Could take it or leave it.
> *Spiker: Weaker Semi-Auto shotgun with better range and rate of fire Something along the lines of this*Mauler: Now a mini flamethrower that can fire either a close range stream or lob globs of flame, attacks from the front can partially blind enemy players.
> *Boltshot: Normal shots function similarly to H4, overcharge fires a more powerful unguided bolt that can damage both health and shields(unlike the PP) but has lower damage(you can’t strip shields in one shot) but a faster cooldown.
> *Energy Sword(yes really). Possibly just campaign only, but if melee lunge was removed from all weapons I think their might be some room to sneak it in.
>
> Broadly speaking UNSC weapons would be your long range options, Covenant for mid range, Brute weapons for close range, and Promethean weapons fill something of a middle ground.

Done the most damage to the sandbox? Its been In 2 games and was only good in one of them.This is a big overreaction

> 2533274830166194;12:
> > 2533274819446242;1:
> > snip
>
> Done the most damage to the sandbox? Its been In 2 games and was only good in one of them.This is a big overreaction

After loadouts and sprint, yes dual wielding was what I would consider the worst thing to happen to Halo’s sandbox and I would argue the mechanic was terrible in both games it was present in. Turns out when you set a precedent for the two most popular games in the series the after effects tend to stick around even if the original reason is removed. Even after dual wielding was removed neither the plasma rifle nor the storm rifle got back the plasma stun(among other things) that were lost going from CE to H2 and the sandbox was still filled with underpowered suite of bullet hoses that didn’t see any noticeable upgrades to make up for that loss.

Halo 4 and 5 might have buffed those weapons, but the boring design holdovers from the dual wielding days still remain. Seems an appropriate reaction to me. The point of the thread is pretty straightforward, explain the damage Bungie era dual wielding has done and then suggest how that could be fixed.

> 2533274795123910;4:
> Probably said many time here, but meh.
>
> The issue that was with dual wielding was the weapons themselves being bad on their own, for dual wielding to not be too powerful.
>
> For dual wielding to actually work, the weapons would have to be usable on their own, while not being too powerful in combo with other weapons during dual wield, and for dual wielding to not be too powerful on its own.

That’s pretty much all there is too it.

Further emphasizing the niche role of Shield or Health damaging weapons acts as a nerf to whatever weapons affected as they will require an additional gun to effectively finish the kill. We already have that with guns like the Brute Plasma Rifle. To make all guns work in that manner would seriously alter the gameplay.

Just let dual wielding die.

This is odd, people don’t want sprint but they also don’t want Dual Wielding? It seems like they want Halo CE again but the forum doesn’t want fall damage.

I think the design philosophy of this forum is a little confused.

> 2666640315087182;15:
> This is odd, people don’t want sprint but they also don’t want Dual Wielding? It seems like they want Halo CE again but the forum doesn’t want fall damage.
>
> I think the design philosophy of this forum is a little confused.

I’d happily take a CE styled modern graphic halo over every other iteration , although I’ve also enjoyed every halo title with all the design changes to varying degrees
CE was lightening in a bottle whilst not perfect it’s pretty damn good .
Btw fall damage ? Is it really an issue it kept a risk/reward element and real world relevance to falling from great heights

> 2535406126289417;16:
> > 2666640315087182;15:
> > This is odd, people don’t want sprint but they also don’t want Dual Wielding? It seems like they want Halo CE again but the forum doesn’t want fall damage.
> >
> > I think the design philosophy of this forum is a little confused.
>
> I’d happily take a CE styled modern graphic halo over every other iteration , although I’ve also enjoyed every halo title with all the design changes to varying degrees
> CE was lightening in a bottle whilst not perfect it’s pretty damn good .
> Btw fall damage ? Is it really an issue it kept a risk/reward element and real world relevance to falling from great heights

I don’t mind fall damage, in a matter of fact I would prefer it to be in Halo Infinite multiplayer at least. But when it was discussed there was a clear opposition to it.

> 2533274819446242;13:
> > 2533274830166194;12:
> > > 2533274819446242;1:
> > > snip
> >
> > Done the most damage to the sandbox? Its been In 2 games and was only good in one of them.This is a big overreaction
>
> After loadouts and sprint, yes dual wielding was what I would consider the worst thing to happen to Halo’s sandbox and I would argue the mechanic was terrible in both games it was present in. Turns out when you set a precedent for the two most popular games in the series the after effects tend to stick around even if the original reason is removed. Even after dual wielding was removed neither the plasma rifle nor the storm rifle got back the plasma stun(among other things) that were lost going from CE to H2 and the sandbox was still filled with underpowered suite of bullet hoses that didn’t see any noticeable upgrades to make up for that loss.
>
> Halo 4 and 5 might have buffed those weapons, but the boring design holdovers from the dual wielding days still remain. Seems an appropriate reaction to me. The point of the thread is pretty straightforward, explain the damage Bungie era dual wielding has done and then suggest how that could be fixed.

So because you couldn’t stun enemies anymore with plasma weapons that makes dual wielding as a whole that bad? It was a mechanic they tried and it didnt last long and that’s about it.Didnt really ruin anything imo

> 2533274819446242;13:
> Turns out when you set a precedent for the two most popular games in the series the after effects tend to stick around even if the original reason is removed. Even after dual wielding was removed neither the plasma rifle nor the storm rifle got back the plasma stun(among other things) that were lost going from CE to H2 and the sandbox was still filled with underpowered suite of bullet hoses that didn’t see any noticeable upgrades to make up for that loss.

That’s true, and the PR stun was an interesting weapon trait, but it was scarcely noticeable in HCE. Too much stun would have slowed down combat. I agree that weapons should be imbued with unique traits.

The needler used to have an emp ability (similar to plasma nades and energy sword). In SP, I’d like to see an option to somewhat delay the needler supercombine (like with the sticky detonator) to elicit more of a reaction out of enemies (who usually stand still, dive around, or charge when stuck with a nade or plasma launcher rounds). The needler’s shorter detonation timer was clearly adapted for MP from H2 onward.

> 2535406126289417;16:
> Btw fall damage ? Is it really an issue it kept a risk/reward element and real world relevance to falling from great heights

It makes sense for marines, ODSTs, weaker Spartan iterations, and perhaps MP Spartans, but Chief as he is now (Mark VI armor) shouldn’t have to deal with it. It was refreshing seeing a viable sandbox and powerful punches return in Halo 4, I felt grotesquely underpowered in ODST/Reach.

I feel fall damage hinders exploration/combat, even if you can mitigate the damage with a well-timed crouch/melee. My main issue with fall damage in HCE was being stunned in place from hard landings, which could put you in a pretty bad situation in combat. I personally like getting the drop on enemies if you know what I mean hehe. https://streamable.com/ix8jf

Besides pulling off fancy challenging jumps in H2/H3 felt rewarding, despite the slight lowering of the skill gap (certain jumps were harder to do in HCE). And who could forget superbouncing? I remember joining a bouncing session and learning the ropes for the first time. It was thrilling! If fall damage returns, it should be able to be disabled in custom games/forge at least.

> 2535469197642915;19:
> > 2533274819446242;13:
> > Turns out when you set a precedent for the two most popular games in the series the after effects tend to stick around even if the original reason is removed. Even after dual wielding was removed neither the plasma rifle nor the storm rifle got back the plasma stun(among other things) that were lost going from CE to H2 and the sandbox was still filled with underpowered suite of bullet hoses that didn’t see any noticeable upgrades to make up for that loss.
>
> That’s true, and the PR stun was an interesting weapon trait, but it was scarcely noticeable in HCE. Too much stun would have slowed down combat. I agree that weapons should be imbued with unique traits.
>
> The needler used to have an emp ability (similar to plasma nades and energy sword). In SP, I’d like to see an option to somewhat delay the needler supercombine (like with the sticky detonator) to elicit more of a reaction out of enemies (who usually stand still, dive around, or charge when stuck with a nade or plasma launcher rounds). The needler’s shorter detonation timer was clearly adapted for MP from H2 onward.
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> > 2535406126289417;16:
> > Btw fall damage ? Is it really an issue it kept a risk/reward element and real world relevance to falling from great heights
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> It makes sense for marines, ODSTs, weaker Spartan iterations, and perhaps MP Spartans, but Chief as he is now (Mark VI armor) shouldn’t have to deal with it. It was refreshing seeing a viable sandbox and powerful punches return in Halo 4, I felt grotesquely underpowered in ODST/Reach.
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> I feel fall damage hinders exploration/combat, even if you can mitigate the damage with a well-timed crouch/melee. My main issue with fall damage in HCE was being stunned in place from hard landings, which could put you in a pretty bad situation in combat. I personally like getting the drop on enemies if you know what I mean hehe. https://streamable.com/ix8jf
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> Besides pulling off fancy challenging jumps in H2/H3 felt rewarding, despite the slight lowering of the skill gap (certain jumps were harder to do in HCE). And who could forget superbouncing? I remember joining a bouncing session and learning the ropes for the first time. It was thrilling! If fall damage returns, it should be able to be disabled in custom games/forge at least.

I never have really thought too much about fall damage tbh , I’ve always found it to be an in game mechanic that Ive just adapted to, which is why I was suprised when it was brought up as a game mechanic/philosophy issue.