Fall of the Covenant Empire

Community Halo Universe
1

Did anyone else find the way this was portrayed in Halo 2 and 3 to be rather dis-satisfactory? The Covenant, an hegemony that had held together undefeated for a millenium, is presented as having collapsed more or less entirely in the space of just a few weeks. The cause of this collapse is an ancient religious bond being shattered by the actions of just a handful of individuals, with species that had been dependent upon one another for innumerable generations suddenly going their separate ways.

I know this is rather a sad question, but hey, I assume this forum has plenty of people who are much more geeky than I am about Halo! Just how did the Covenant collapse so easily? I know Halo’s “just” a videogame and all, but surely the Empire’s sudden disappearance requires just too much hand-waving to be plausible. I say this as a student of history- no human Empire has EVER crumbled as rapidly as the Covenant is portrayed as having done in the Halo series, and the Covenant, I think we can safely say, is a state much more integrated and inter-dependent than any historical state on Earth.

Personally, I’m hoping Halo 4 and later games will show us a Covenant Empire that’s recovering from the brief civil war brought in by the Great Schism, and is now actively trying to absorb elements of humanity.

Answers on a postcard, please ;).

2

To be fair, it was really only the San Shyumm’s grip over the Covenant that has fallen. In the course of the several years since the end of Halo 3, many factions may be competing in a power grab for the role of the leading class of the Covenant. Telcam’s splinter group is proof enough that there are still fanatically devoted members that want to continue the fight. The Covenant hasn’t been defeated entirely as much as it has been put into a state of hibernation potentially.

3

> Telcam’s splinter group is proof enough that there are still fanatically devoted members that want to continue the fight. The Covenant hasn’t been defeated entirely as much as it has been put into a state of hibernation potentially.

Devoted? Yes. Continuing a fight against humans? No. The only sangheili we’ve seen who wants to attack humanity is Jul 'Mdama and his friend Forze, who seems to be forced into it. Even when Jul brought up the possibility of attacking humanity during one of Thel 'Vadam’s speeches, every other Sangheili fell awkwardly silent. As of right now, no major factions want to continue genocide against the humans.

4

My mistake, I get their names confused sometimes.

As for the Elites falling silent at the meeting, we cannot say that they all were in support of Thel or even supported Jul. The point I guess that I am trying to make is that since that we see Jul be a very vocal dissenting opinion, it can be reasoned that there are many that still cling to the beliefs of the Covenant. The Covenant Empire extends over much of the Milky Way with trillions of citizens. I am sure many are willing to continue the fight against the humans, either following the beliefs of the Prophets or simply because they hate the species that destroyed their religions.

5

> My mistake, I get their names confused sometimes.
>
> As for the Elites falling silent at the meeting, we cannot say that they all were in support of Thel or even supported Jul. The point I guess that I am trying to make is that since that we see Jul be a very vocal dissenting opinion, it can be reasoned that there are many that still cling to the beliefs of the Covenant. The Covenant Empire extends over much of the Milky Way with trillions of citizens. I am sure many are willing to continue the fight against the humans, either following the beliefs of the Prophets or simply because they hate the species that destroyed their religions.

Incorrect the events of the trilogy have done no damage to the foundation of the Sangheili religion. All the events have done is made them change scripture. In a real world example it would be like Christianity throwing out all the verses of mathews or genesis.

6

Agree with the view that the Sangheili religion would remain fundamentally intact- so what’s to stop the ancient alliance with the Prophets (their native name I always forget) from being patched up? I know Halo canon has the majority of Prophets being killed at the fall of High Charity, but, as someone has stated, the Covenant Empire is a gigantic state, so I’d guess there are still thousands of ambitious Prophets.

One way I could see the Covenant remaining split is to have rival Sangheili-backed and Jiralhanae-backed Hierarchs, though I doubt it’d be so clean cut as that. After all, there would surely be numerous factions within the Sangheili and Jiralhanae races. In any case, I do think that soon enough one Prophet (perhaps he’d adopt the title “Reconciliation”) would be able to put together a powerful enough coalition of Sangheili and Jiralhanae to be able to achieve restoration of the Covenant Empire. After all, don’t the new books more or less explicitly state that Sangheili society is collapsing already by 2553 in the absence of Covenant structures?

My view is more or less that the Covenant is too big and old to fail at this stage in its existence. Civil war for a few years is plausible- but lasting collapse almost certainly isn’t.

7

> Agree with the view that the Sangheili religion would remain fundamentally intact- so what’s to stop the ancient alliance with the Prophets (their native name I always forget) from being patched up? I know Halo canon has the majority of Prophets being killed at the fall of High Charity, but, as someone has stated, the Covenant Empire is a gigantic state, so I’d guess there are still thousands of ambitious Prophets.
>
> One way I could see the Covenant remaining split is to have rival Sangheili-backed and Jiralhanae-backed Hierarchs, though I doubt it’d be so clean cut as that. After all, there would surely be numerous factions within the Sangheili and Jiralhanae races. In any case, I do think that soon enough one Prophet (perhaps he’d adopt the title “Reconciliation”) would be able to put together a powerful enough coalition of Sangheili and Jiralhanae to be able to achieve restoration of the Covenant Empire. After all, don’t the new books more or less explicitly state that Sangheili society is collapsing already by 2553 in the absence of Covenant structures?
>
> My view is more or less that the Covenant is too big and old to fail at this stage in its existence. Civil war for a few years is plausible- but lasting collapse almost certainly isn’t.

See that’s one of the few things that bothered me with Glasslands. The Brutes are still assisting the Sanghelli with certain things. Yet it is said the Brutes were not only killing the Elites, but eating them. I’m sure certain Brutes could talk their way out of it, but for the Elites to catoragize the Humans the way they did, then allow the Brutes to stand beside them doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I don’t think any of the Sanghelli would even back another Prophet again. The Brutes, yes, but not the Sanghelli. The limited number of Prophets means they all shared the same ideology, and they were all in close proximity to each other. Some Elites still worship the Forerunner as Gods. However the “Great Journey” was found to be completely False. That was the goal of their religion, to follow in the footsteps of their Gods.

I have a lot of trouble understanding why the Elites don’t have the bodies they need to repair their ships (stated in Glasslands). They got them fixed before the Brutes came along, and it was shown that the Legako were still fighting next to the Elites, as well as the Grunts. And the Kig Yar are pirates/mercenaries, it shouldn’t be all that hard to pay them off.

What I would like to see, is a group of Sanghelli/Kig’Yar/Grunts/Legako turn to the innies and make an alliance with them. To take on the UNSC. The Kig’Yar already trade with them, and the Innies hate the UNSC so it would be interesting to see. To me anyway

8

You guys have it wrong again with the Sangheili religion. It is not 100% loyalty to the belief in the Great Journey anymore. A lot of Sangheili now doubt the belief in the Forerunners. Jul is one such Sangheili. Thel 'Vadam does not revere the Forerunners anymore. Relon even destroyed a Forerunner Spire on his property to show his newfound defiance. He felt
“the Gods wouldn’t mind since they were dead.”
I forget which Halo literature described it this way, but it said something along the lines of since the Gods did not make themselves present or useful during the Covenant’s greatest time of need and eventual collapse, there was no reason to hold on to such a faith.

However there are others, such as the Shipmaster from The Return, and Avu Med 'Telcam with his Servants of Abiding Truth, that wholeheartedly believe in the Great Journey still, even with the intel on what the Halo Array was truly used for. Avu has my favorite choice words on his unwavering faith.
“Learn something from the humans. Religion is not synonymous with Gods. It’s a mortal’s conceit. Look at their great religions. How corrupt and how political and in love with power they’ve been throughout human history, and see the truth- that the prophets lied to us, but they did not speak for the gods, and the destructive nature of the halos tells us nothing about where the transformation of death takes us.”

Overall, their faith is scattered. I would venture to say roughly an even 50/50 split at this point. I believe their ideology on faith as a whole will be determined by the victor of this civil conflict. Whoever reigns at the end of the wars will impose either their faith or lack of faith on the rest, because in Sangheili culture, allowing both strong beliefs will only cause strife, like it is right now.

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> See that’s one of the few things that bothered me with Glasslands. The Brutes are still assisting the Sanghelli with certain things. Yet it is said the Brutes were not only killing the Elites, but eating them. I’m sure certain Brutes could talk their way out of it, but for the Elites to catoragize the Humans the way they did, then allow the Brutes to stand beside them doesn’t make a lot of sense.

It was explained in a way that the Brutes who remain loyal to the Sangheili were basically cowards that were more afraid of attempting to return to their pack leaders than staying loyal to their Sangheili superior. Apparently the Sangheili find it confusing that a few Jiralhanae would remain with them and they are considered untrustworthy, and are vigilantly watched by the Sangheili. If you’re desperate for it I could pull the page number if you wish.

> I don’t think any of the Sanghelli would even back another Prophet again. The Brutes, yes, but not the Sanghelli. The limited number of Prophets means they all shared the same ideology, and they were all in close proximity to each other. Some Elites still worship the Forerunner as Gods. However the “Great Journey” was found to be completely False. That was the goal of their religion, to follow in the footsteps of their Gods.

You definitely nailed that one. One small detail I argue with is what you said about the Great Journey. Some still believe it is possible to take that transcending path, just not through the means of the Halo Array. As Avu Med 'Telcam said,
“So the Halos are machines of destruction. So you say the gods themselves were killed by them. Your god chose to die for you and that is precisely why you revere him, yes? And why you say he also lives. This so-called proof about the Halos means nothing. Not even to you.”

> I have a lot of trouble understanding why the Elites don’t have the bodies they need to repair their ships (stated in Glasslands). They got them fixed before the Brutes came along, and it was shown that the Legako were still fighting next to the Elites, as well as the Grunts. And the Kig Yar are pirates/mercenaries, it shouldn’t be all that hard to pay them off.

The Sangheili were never tasked with repair/mechanic work as far as we know. (Aside from 'Sanjik, who was a product of Halo Wars and only mentioned in their little pre-release game.) For 3,000 years the Sangheili’s sole function was military force. Warriors, not mechanics. I can understand how they are having issues with repair, agriculture, and general structure, because they simply have not done it for generations. I also understand that since the Huragok have “fled”, there is no one to repair their vessels. What bugs me about that is, well, buggers. Yanme’e were used as mechanics as well. Whatever happened to them? Why not use them to repair the Covenant tech?

> What I would like to see, is a group of Sanghelli/Kig’Yar/Grunts/Legako turn to the innies and make an alliance with them. To take on the UNSC. The Kig’Yar already trade with them, and the Innies hate the UNSC so it would be interesting to see. To me anyway

The Kig Yar have traded with Innies, but that is the most I could see coming out of that. Most all Sangheili don’t want an all out war with the humans or the UNSC. However if they learn about the humans breaking their terms of alliance via taking Jul 'Mdama captive, that may change.

10

The entire focus of their lives, what they were striding for, their goal turned out to be a lie. And it was the Prophets who lied to them, so how could they possibly hold together the Covenant? It makes sense that it happened that way. While some people still believe the Great Journey can be obtained, we don’t quite know if all of them believe that way still.

Also, about the human empire thing; Human empires were all made up of one race, while the Covenant is made up of multiple races, many of which distrusted each other even while the Covenant still held, and with an all out civil war, one could guess that distrust deepened. The only thing holding the Covenant together was the prophets really too, so with them proved liars, it made things get worse.

11

So after reading some of these posts with a lot of good points, it seems like 343 has put the Covenant into a position in which they are able to either return or not. It seems to really come down to a level where some of the members may have left the faith (Thel and company) or stayed with it. Those that have stayed with the faith in my mind have a better chance of being hostile towards humanity as they have proven old habits die hard. All it takes at this point is a Shipmaster or two (either Sangheili or Jiralhanae) to start harassing the incredibly weak remnants of the UNSC Navy. Now, there is no way that there could be a full scale assault on Earth, but any remaining Covenant loyalists could potentially cause a lot of damage in hit and run tactics. With enough backing from near countless worlds that may be impressed by this success, there could be a real problem with many groups of Covenant Loyalists that could eventually give the UNSC a run for its money (similar to the Insurrectionists).

One must remember that right now, it seems the two races of the Covenant with the most clout are the Sangheili and the Jiralhanae, simply because they have the largest capital ships. They could easily force the lesser races to join out of familiarity or by force.

By the way, some questions I would like to try and answer,

I believe the Yanme’e were more fond of the Jiralhanae than the Sangheili, so it wouldn’t surprise me that they left Sangheilios.

Also, I believe that I had heard the the remaining San Shyuum are actually going extinct as the majority of their species were located on High Charity, only to be consumed by the Flood.

As for the Kig Yar, they have only been made out (to my knowledge) to be pirates and mercenaries. It would be entirely within their nature of joining onto one of these groups for the plunder of attacking both weak Human and Covenant Separatist colonies and targets.

12

> > See that’s one of the few things that bothered me with Glasslands. The Brutes are still assisting the Sanghelli with certain things. Yet it is said the Brutes were not only killing the Elites, but eating them. I’m sure certain Brutes could talk their way out of it, but for the Elites to catoragize the Humans the way they did, then allow the Brutes to stand beside them doesn’t make a lot of sense.
>
> It was explained in a way that the Brutes who remain loyal to the Sangheili were basically cowards that were more afraid of attempting to return to their pack leaders than staying loyal to their Sangheili superior. Apparently the Sangheili find it confusing that a few Jiralhanae would remain with them and they are considered untrustworthy, and are vigilantly watched by the Sangheili. If you’re desperate for it I could pull the page number if you wish.

No need for a page number, I can get behind that idea. I’m just saying for a group, or even certain members of a group that would like to kill the humans, it’s suprising that they would allow any of the brutes to live…

> > I don’t think any of the Sanghelli would even back another Prophet again. The Brutes, yes, but not the Sanghelli. The limited number of Prophets means they all shared the same ideology, and they were all in close proximity to each other. Some Elites still worship the Forerunner as Gods. However the “Great Journey” was found to be completely False. That was the goal of their religion, to follow in the footsteps of their Gods.
>
> You definitely nailed that one. One small detail I argue with is what you said about the Great Journey. Some still believe it is possible to take that transcending path, just not through the means of the Halo Array. As Avu Med 'Telcam said,
> “So the Halos are machines of destruction. So you say the gods themselves were killed by them. Your god chose to die for you and that is precisely why you revere him, yes? And why you say he also lives. This so-called proof about the Halos means nothing. Not even to you.”

Right, my point however was that the Prophets led them astray, even though now they understand the Halos and “don’t care”, my point is more that the Prophets mislead them, and then they turned on them and allowed/ordered the Brutes to kill them.

> > I have a lot of trouble understanding why the Elites don’t have the bodies they need to repair their ships (stated in Glasslands). They got them fixed before the Brutes came along, and it was shown that the Legako were still fighting next to the Elites, as well as the Grunts. And the Kig Yar are pirates/mercenaries, it shouldn’t be all that hard to pay them off.
>
> The Sangheili were never tasked with repair/mechanic work as far as we know. (Aside from 'Sanjik, who was a product of Halo Wars and only mentioned in their little pre-release game.) For 3,000 years the Sangheili’s sole function was military force. Warriors, not mechanics. I can understand how they are having issues with repair, agriculture, and general structure, because they simply have not done it for generations. I also understand that since the Huragok have “fled”, there is no one to repair their vessels. What bugs me about that is, well, buggers. Yanme’e were used as mechanics as well. Whatever happened to them? Why not use them to repair the Covenant tech?

Again, this is more along the lines of how did they do it before they got the Hurgok? And that is a good point about the Yanme’e, where did they go? I just have trouble figuring out that of all the races they are still allied with, why none of those races can repair a ship.

> > What I would like to see, is a group of Sanghelli/Kig’Yar/Grunts/Legako turn to the innies and make an alliance with them. To take on the UNSC. The Kig’Yar already trade with them, and the Innies hate the UNSC so it would be interesting to see. To me anyway
>
> The Kig Yar have traded with Innies, but that is the most I could see coming out of that. Most all Sangheili don’t want an all out war with the humans or the UNSC. However if they learn about the humans breaking their terms of alliance via taking Jul 'Mdama captive, that may change.

Right, I’m just saying it from a personal standpoint, if there was a way to work it, that I would like to see it. I just think it would be a cool plot line. I know there would be a very very slim chance, just saying.

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> Devoted? Yes. Continuing a fight against humans? No. The only sangheili we’ve seen who wants to attack humanity is Jul 'Mdama and his friend Forze, who seems to be forced into it. Even when Jul brought up the possibility of attacking humanity during one of Thel 'Vadam’s speeches, every other Sangheili fell awkwardly silent. As of right now, <mark>no major factions want to continue genocide against the humans.</mark>

I feel that is incorrect. We know from Levu that he wouldn’t mind seeing humanity destroyed, but because they lack the resources to attack them they would put it off for now. I have a feeling that is in the hearts of many Elite Shipmasters and Kaidons like Jul. The desire to kill humans and the inability to do so presently are not the same.

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> > Devoted? Yes. Continuing a fight against humans? No. The only sangheili we’ve seen who wants to attack humanity is Jul 'Mdama and his friend Forze, who seems to be forced into it. Even when Jul brought up the possibility of attacking humanity during one of Thel 'Vadam’s speeches, every other Sangheili fell awkwardly silent. As of right now, <mark>no major factions want to continue genocide against the humans.</mark>
>
> I feel that is incorrect. We know from Levu that he wouldn’t mind seeing humanity destroyed, but because they lack the resources to attack them they would put it off for now. I have a feeling that is in the hearts of many Elite Shipmasters and Kaidons like Jul. The desire to kill humans and the inability to do so presently are not the same.

Yeah and Jul is afraid of the Humans because unlike his own people, the Humans are capable of rebuilding and the thought of Revenge is a very real fear. He also says that he’s simply afraid the Arbiter is good enough to sway the Elites to his side and he just wants to get rid of him so that someone else who thinks like him, (Jul), can instead sway the Elites the other way. There is no guarantee this would happen though.

15

> > > Devoted? Yes. Continuing a fight against humans? No. The only sangheili we’ve seen who wants to attack humanity is Jul 'Mdama and his friend Forze, who seems to be forced into it. Even when Jul brought up the possibility of attacking humanity during one of Thel 'Vadam’s speeches, every other Sangheili fell awkwardly silent. As of right now, <mark>no major factions want to continue genocide against the humans.</mark>
> >
> > I feel that is incorrect. We know from Levu that he wouldn’t mind seeing humanity destroyed, but because they lack the resources to attack them they would put it off for now. I have a feeling that is in the hearts of many Elite Shipmasters and Kaidons like Jul. The desire to kill humans and the inability to do so presently are not the same.
>
> Yeah and Jul is afraid of the Humans because unlike his own people, the Humans are capable of rebuilding and the thought of Revenge is a very real fear. He also says that he’s simply afraid the Arbiter is good enough to sway the Elites to his side and he just wants to get rid of him so that someone else who thinks like him, (Jul), can instead sway the Elites the other way. There is no guarantee this would happen though.

All true, but honestly, if I were afraid of retaliation, I wouldn’t be trying to answer it with violence. A partnership with humans has more benefits than with Brutes imo.

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> > > > Devoted? Yes. Continuing a fight against humans? No. The only sangheili we’ve seen who wants to attack humanity is Jul 'Mdama and his friend Forze, who seems to be forced into it. Even when Jul brought up the possibility of attacking humanity during one of Thel 'Vadam’s speeches, every other Sangheili fell awkwardly silent. As of right now, <mark>no major factions want to continue genocide against the humans.</mark>
> > >
> > > I feel that is incorrect. We know from Levu that he wouldn’t mind seeing humanity destroyed, but because they lack the resources to attack them they would put it off for now. I have a feeling that is in the hearts of many Elite Shipmasters and Kaidons like Jul. The desire to kill humans and the inability to do so presently are not the same.
> >
> > Yeah and Jul is afraid of the Humans because unlike his own people, the Humans are capable of rebuilding and the thought of Revenge is a very real fear. He also says that he’s simply afraid the Arbiter is good enough to sway the Elites to his side and he just wants to get rid of him so that someone else who thinks like him, (Jul), can instead sway the Elites the other way. There is no guarantee this would happen though.
>
> All true, but honestly, if I were afraid of retaliation, I wouldn’t be trying to answer it with violence. A partnership with humans has more benefits than with Brutes imo.

I don’t recall Levu ever saying anything about wanting to continue genocide on the humans. He has no reason to. If anything you could say Levu is a human sympathizer. He silenced the crowd when a few Sangheili started to mock Thel 'Vadam’s compassion for humans. As I said earlier, trying to put all sangheili in a box regarding opinion is not possible. There’s no question the majority of Sangheili do not find humans trustworthy, but going as far to say they would continue genocide over it is absurd. Sangheili find Kig Yar untrustworthy, they do not commit genocide against them.

And Jul being afraid of humans is definitely a stretch. Jul says the Sangheili should finish off the humans now because they will come for retaliation. He never says he is afraid of them. If that were true, if anything, Jul would not wish to attack them. Jul is sort of oblivious or ignorant to the fact that the Sangheili cannot repair their instruments to continue this attack currently, and that would also rest on the possibility of Jul getting anyone to agree with him on assaulting humanity again.

17

“I think they’re devious creatures that can be held in place with the right degree of mutual threat,” he said, “And I think that we’re in no shape to mount the kind of attack that could wipe them out cleanly. But that’s not to say I want to make peace with them. We do what we must.”

Levu, pg. 88

Human sympathizer? Really?

18

> “I think they’re devious creatures that can be held in place with the right degree of mutual threat,” he said, “And I think that we’re in no shape to mount the kind of attack that could wipe them out cleanly. But that’s not to say I want to make peace with them. We do what we must.”
>
> Levu, pg. 88
>
> Human sympathizer? Really?

Well, that goes along with everything I said. He thinks them untrustworthy, like most all Sangheili, but could be an ally if the circumstances are right. And just like he said, he’ll do what he must. That could go along with any other species. If they must trade with the Kig Yar or have Jiralahanae repair their ships, they will, whether they would prefer it that way or not. Doesn’t necessarily mean he wants to annihilate all of them.

19

Just read this whole thread, and I have to say I’m learning a lot about the Halo universe just from this debate. Keep it coming. Lol.

20

Yeah, thanks for the responses, folks.

I’m not too into the extended Universe of the Halo games, so what I’ve picked up is mostly stuff I’ve read about the books without actually having read them. Still, my point holds that I believe the Covenant Empire really is “too big to fail”. Had the Great Schism been the last straw in escalating discontent and collapse within the Covenant, then, fair enough. But the Covenant Empire we are presented with in Reach and early Halo 2 is still an exceedingly powerful and unified state. Besides High Charity, I think I’m correct in saying that no Covenant planet has ever fallen. It just doesn’t “stack up”, in my view.