This clip demonstrates perfectly the gross imbalance of automatics in their relation to risk vs reward in an engagement.
It begins with me spawning Red Garage on Fathom CTF. I step out to Red Court to help a teammate clean up a kill. I know there is another on our porch, so I move to engage.
I get well within AR range, swap to the AR and begin the spray and pray. All normal so far. The guy I’m fighting keeps his cool and lands a quick 4 pistol shots before thrusting back and sideways away from me, and behind cover. Not wanting to give him a quick peek shot, I throw a (harmless) grenade and do the same.
Here’s where it gets problematic. We are now both no shield, but he’s effectively backed me well out of the AR’s red reticule range so all he has to do is line up the easy headshot while I have to either switch to my pistol or spray helplessly, right?
The problem is, he doesn’t even get the chance. As soon as I see him I put him in the general area of that massive reticule and hold down the trigger and it MELTS him. If there was even difference between that and a pistol headshot, you wouldn’t notice it at normal speed.
But the pistol headshot is much harder to achieve under pressure. The AR in this game simply has unprecedented range and health damage, and similar to Reach’s bloom, what sounds like a skill to learn (bullet spread) simply allows bad play to be randomly rewarded, and this clip is a perfect example of it. That guy outplayed me and would have likely won had the AR not been so insanely imbalanced.
I don’t enjoy playing like this, but unfortunately the meta dictates that you adapt, and even pros are using much more AR and we’re getting watered down, random engagements as a result.
With no shields and full health, it takes 5 shots to kill an enemy with the AR. That is, I feel, more than enough time to get a pistol shot.
You had already lowered his shields with the AR. The final burst just finished him off. Yes, there was a lucky bullet in there that killed him. But lucky shots happen all the time, even with precision weapons.
Also, it looks like he was looking where you were at previously. You turned the tables by walking around that pillar where he didn’t expect you. That’s all there is to it. You just outplayed him.
You can also see that he was getting hit by a team mate as well, which is why he died so quickly. The AR isn’t OP, it’s just effective in it’s designated range. I would attribute your kill to a lucky shot rather than just the AR being OP. You can get close range snapshots with the sniper if you are well-trained, but does that make it OP?
If the AR took out the pistol at medium to long range, then THAT would be basis for saying it is OP, but that is not the case in the hands of equally skilled players.
The golden triangle was used as the design allows.
The 2nd opponent died because they missed their headshot on you. Risk vs Reward, if they miss and give you time to spray within a short distance (they were still in short range), they deserve to lose.
This would be a really crappy sandbox if every auto missed at that range, I would expect the SMG and Suppressor to not have gotten the kill in the same time (SMG by spread, Suppressor by travel time/ramp up), the Storm Rifle and SAW might have quicker.
No, I’m glad that automatic weapons actually do something in this game. I actually hate that the pistol can outgun every precision weapon in the game. Why can’t it be like H3 when weapon pickups were actually important. In this, everyone -Yoinking!- starts with a power weapon
> 2533274834104412;6:
> No, I’m glad that automatic weapons actually do something in this game. I actually hate that the pistol can outgun every precision weapon in the game. Why can’t it be like H3 when weapon pickups were actually important. In this, everyone -Yoinking!- starts with a power weapon
Well I fondly remember spawning in H3, and getting shredded by BRs. BR starts only served to make the game boring because you started with the best kit. There wasn’t really a lot to do about it. I loved H3, though, so don’t get me wrong.
Fundamentally, what I’m saying is that it should’ve been much harder for me to kill him from that distance with the AR, even if he was no shield. It felt like much more of a lucky kill than a well-executed one.
Bear in mind, nothing about the first half of the fight bothers me. It was a close range fight. But this gun can dish out so much health damage at such range it’s insane. It’s obviously not as good as the magnum in its potential, but when you compare how close to the magnum it can be with how much easier/more random it is, it’s just ridiculous.
Why does everyone want autos nerfed into the ground?
Just because they are relevant now?
Weapons are not rock paper scissors
There is a degree of skill involved. If you melt someone with an AR and they are using a pistol then gg for you because the other person couldnt land his shots.
Go watch some pro tourneys esp the x games.
Storm rifles were as valuable as rockets and if someone was one shot they would use anything (yes even spray and pray) to finish the kill.
If you feel like you are speaking for the competitive community or the pros themselves (who say on stream that autos are a bit on the strong side but have no problem using them in tournament play) you aren’t convincing anyone.
Of course this is anecdotal evidence, but you said it yourself, these weapons are a huge part of the metagame at th highest level.
I watched all of the Xgames and have followed competitive Halo since Darkman and Bigsauce were in the Bungie tournament. Pro players aren’t going to vote to change a metagame that they’ve practiced for months straight a few weeks before Regionals. Removing Breakout was one thing because it didn’t fundamentally alter the rest of the game.
I’m completely against rock paper scissors gameplay. I’d rather have the game be balanced around a single utility weapon (the magnum). CE did this exceptionally well because it let every gun have its niche around the pistol, which made the guns unique.
Ideally I’d like to see the health damage of autos reduced and instead give them unique traits. Give the AR the fastest melee. Bring back the plasma stun for the Storm Rifle and have it “EMP” the suit by disabling thruster under continuous fire. Perhaps let the SMG keep it’s damage but give it a damage drop off that increases with range.
I’d just like to see anything that made them unique instead of simply a collection of bullet hoses.
> 2693447455724344;9:
> Fundamentally, what I’m saying is that it should’ve been much harder for me to kill him from that distance with the AR, even if he was no shield. It felt like much more of a lucky kill than a well-executed one.
> Bear in mind, nothing about the first half of the fight bothers me. It was a close range fight. But this gun can dish out so much health damage at such range it’s insane. It’s obviously not as good as the magnum in its potential, but when you compare how close to the magnum it can be with how much easier/more random it is, it’s just ridiculous.
How was it not well executed? Do you feel you should have just reloaded and used a full M6 instead of the way you engaged?
You used the AR to strip shields while they used the M6 to strip yours, you used a frag to pressure them back. They never left short range and they missed the headshot on you.
And you HAVEN’T compared how much easier it is.
> 2693447455724344;13:
> I’m completely against rock paper scissors gameplay. I’d rather have the game be balanced around a single utility weapon (the magnum). CE did this exceptionally well because it let every gun have its niche around the pistol, which made the guns unique.
This doesn’t make sense.
Not only was the M6 modified at the last second and said sandbox was balanced around a 6-shot 1.5s perfect killing M6, having everything have its own niche IS Rock Paper Scissor esque gameplay.
Can’t have cake and eat it too.
And I have to add that I’ve rewatched that film from different angles and can confirm that once he and I started fighting I was the only one to damage him. My two teammates top mid were killed before they could damage him. He also was not sloppy with his shots at all. He nails his first four despite my constant strafe, but by the time the fight is over his health is so slow that he literally just didn’t have a chance to line up another shot. At least not quicker than I could put him in the center of the reticule and hold the trigger down.
I mean, does anyone actually find these weapons satisfying or fun to use? They aren’t unique at all and there’s just so little depth to learning them.
> 2693447455724344;15:
> He also was not sloppy with his shots at all. He nails his first four despite my constant strafe, but by the time the fight is over his health is so slow that he literally just didn’t have a chance to line up another shot. At least not quicker than I could put him in the center of the reticule and hold the trigger down.
>
> I mean, does anyone actually find these weapons satisfying or fun to use? They aren’t unique at all and there’s just so little depth to learning them.
He/she missed their kill shot. Period.
Doesn’t matter what they did before hand, they dropped the clutch and you capitalized.
And if there wasn’t any depth to learning them, you would have reloaded your M6 before thrusting forward, and then used your AR ONLY if you ran out of M6 ammo.
As you did not reload your M6 or deplete the remaining 5 shots in the M6, and instead used the more ammo-plenty AR, there MUST be something to using said AR.
> 2603643534597848;14:
> > 2693447455724344;9:
> > Fundamentally, what I’m saying is that it should’ve been much harder for me to kill him from that distance with the AR, even if he was no shield. It felt like much more of a lucky kill than a well-executed one.
> > Bear in mind, nothing about the first half of the fight bothers me. It was a close range fight. But this gun can dish out so much health damage at such range it’s insane. It’s obviously not as good as the magnum in its potential, but when you compare how close to the magnum it can be with how much easier/more random it is, it’s just ridiculous.
>
>
> How was it not well executed? Do you feel you should have just reloaded and used a full M6 instead of the way you engaged?
>
> You used the AR to strip shields while they used the M6 to strip yours, you used a frag to pressure them back. They never left short range and they missed the headshot on you.
>
> And you HAVEN’T compared how much easier it is.
>
>
>
>
> > 2693447455724344;13:
> > I’m completely against rock paper scissors gameplay. I’d rather have the game be balanced around a single utility weapon (the magnum). CE did this exceptionally well because it let every gun have its niche around the pistol, which made the guns unique.
>
>
> This doesn’t make sense.
> Not only was the M6 modified at the last second and said sandbox was balanced around a 6-shot 1.5s perfect killing M6, having everything have its own niche IS Rock Paper Scissor esque gameplay.
> Can’t have cake and eat it too.
But that balance of utility weapon and niche weapon is exactly what CE mastered 15 years ago. The pistol is an incredibly deep and versatile weapon, but:
The AR has the best melee and quick camo.
The plasma rifle stuns and is the best for a flank.
Shotgun is a beast close quarters.
Sniper rifle is self explanatory.
Rocket wins games.
Plasma pistol destroys OS.
And the Needler sucks. Can’t be perfect huh?
All of these weapons had a clear function they excelled in, but those strengths were directly balanced around the pistol being as strong as it’s user. H5 is kind of close, but its autos are drastically stronger and much less unique in function while its utility weapon is literally half as effective. Our skill based utility weapon has a much lower ceiling of effectiveness and the autos all function more or less the same with small variances to damage and range.
> And if there wasn’t any depth to learning them, you would have reloaded your M6 before thrusting forward, and then used your AR ONLY if you ran out of M6 ammo.
That’s a complete non-sequitur.
> Not only was the M6 modified at the last second and said sandbox was balanced around a 6-shot 1.5s perfect killing M6
And that’s a rumor I’m not inclined to believe considering Hardy Lebel himself has stated he hates games that force the player to rely on teamshot, which is exactly what such a slow gun would (and has) accomplish(ed).
> having everything have its own niche IS Rock Paper Scissor esque gameplay.
No. Having a game with hard-counters is rock-paper-scissors gameplay. There’s a difference between weapons having an edge in their niche, and weapons stomping anything else in their niche completely.
> 2693447455724344;15:
> And I have to add that I’ve rewatched that film from different angles and can confirm that once he and I started fighting I was the only one to damage him. My two teammates top mid were killed before they could damage him. He also was not sloppy with his shots at all. He nails his first four despite my constant strafe, but by the time the fight is over his health is so slow that he literally just didn’t have a chance to line up another shot. At least not quicker than I could put him in the center of the reticule and hold the trigger down.
>
> I mean, does anyone actually find these weapons satisfying or fun to use? They aren’t unique at all and there’s just so little depth to learning them.
I don’t think this community understands your point. The assault rifle/Storm Rifle is simply over powered. If I can kill you from short/longer distant range…thats a problem. It requires little to no skill.
Look at the Riptide level, its a camp fest with storm rifles…please tell me a pistol stands a chance in that level. It’s not Rock/Paper/Scissors.
I’m all about variety, but I’m willing to bet that more than a handful of kills are done with these OP’d autos.