Dont Buff Anti Air 2 "Prepair to Air"

I am back with round 2 of the Air and AA interaction testing that will hopefully result in 343 reconsidering the buff that AA units will be getting in the upcoming patch. This group of tests will involve Banshees v UNSC vehicles and Hornets v Banished Vehicles. I am doing this to try and get everyone on the same page and to hopefully learn somethings myself about army compositions and tactics. Lets get into it.

Test 1
Locust Reaver Ball v Hornets

I’m going to beat you to the punch here. The locust reaver ball is an absurdly expensive full army to make… but it brings the pain. 2 Reavers were lost along with 5 Locust in exchange for the entire air army. What is different here is that the surviving ball can literally walk up to the opponents front door and kick it off the hinges. 5 locust are enough to drop an ungraded base relatively quickly which is something t1 warthogs cannot due after an engagement. I personally think that most units don’t do enough building damage early on but that is an argument for a different day.

Vehicle Army → 4400 supply, 3800 power, 8200 total
Air Army → 6500 supply

Unless you are one of those players that laughs at the thought of taking advice from someone at my skill level, you probably shouldn’t be tech-ing straight into locust and reavers. Locust are a fantastic unit if your micro can handle it but it is a huge risk putting that much power into them.

Test 2
Vehicle Mix v 15 Hornet 5 Nightingale
Hornet Nightingale (y-ability) v Banished Vehicle

I tried to make the vehicle cost a bit more friendly on this one. It is still an expensive army but it wont break you as much as full locust reaver. I also wanted to see if adding nightingales would help the air survive at all. It didn’t. I know it is a bad testing practice to change two variables at the same time but I think the advantage is so far in favor of AA that it doesn’t matter. I also tried to use the smoke from the nightingales to see if there was any affect. As long as the vehicles stay moving, the smoke doesn’t do much.

Vehicle Army–> 4770 supply, 2550 power, 7320 total
Air Army → 4875 supply, 250 power, 6875 total

For the previous 3 videos, note that while the banished armies are more expensive, they have significantly more base breaking potential post battle than with the UNSC vehicle mix

Test 3
80 Pop Banished Air and Support v UNSC Vehicle Mix
100 Pop Banished Air and Support v UNSC Vehicle Mix
100 Pop Banished Air no support v UNSC Vehicle Mix

These next three videos show the effect on adding shrouds and Engineers into an Banished Air Army. While the 80 Pop army barely put up a fight, the 100 pop army did actually pretty well against the UNSC vehicles. The shroud anti projectile and the Engineer shield helped the army survive a lot longer than if it was only 100 population of Banshees. Keep in mind however, The Banished air army only works if it is at full strength (or critical mass). If I make 6-8 wolverines first and then pepper in my hogs, I will be able to travel around the map uncontested because of both how effective wolverines are and how weak and slow to train air armies are in the mid game. I would still put my money on the UNSC vehicles winning 10/10 times, even 80 v 100 pop.

Vehicle Army → 5200 supply, 1520 power, 6720 total
Air Army 80 (core +support) → 7000 supply, 330 power, 7330 total
Air Army 100 (core + support) → 9100 supply, 1260 power, 10360 total (with reinforcements I)
Air Army 100(core) → 9900 → supply, 750 power, 10650 total (with reinforcements I)

Those are very expensive army to make and still lose. I will go on the record and say that per unit cost, banshees are not very strong at all. Especially compared to hornets.

Test 4
100 Pop Boundless Siphon Boundless Fury Banshee v 80 Pop UNSC Vehicle Mix

What test would it be if Decimus wasn’t around to mess everything up. While 100 Pop of Banshees loses rather decisively to 80 Pop Vehicles, The Decimus Passive Banshees torch the vehicle army without question. I’m not sure if this is enough to qualify as over powered. You can only get the passives as the 4th and 5th point which should be around the 8-9 and 11-12 ish minute marks. If I know I am going against deciums, I will probably have made an effort to either get 1 or 2 global upgrades or increase my pop to mix in more AA. I’m not sure how either of those things would turn out though, further testing is required.

PLEASE DONT READ THIS AS AN AIR ISSUE. THIS IS EXCLUSIVLY A DECIMUS ISSUE.

Bonus Test
3 AA Turrets, Fort 1, 3 Decimus Reavers and Shield v 25 Wingman Hornets

There were too many variables in this fight for any definite conclusions to be drawn on my part. The only thing that I could say is that 25 wingman hornets could not bring down the base in a reasonable amount of time when it was only guarded by 3 wolves. I have felt this pain when people try to turtle me behind a cloak and shield. After my failed attack, I also would have been wide open for attack on the other side of the map. If the Banished player has any base breaking potential in his army, the game should be over.

Please bring your tactfully worded arguments along with ideas for future tests below in the comments. I look forward to continuing this dialogue and hopefully improving the game in the process.

You should change your waypoint pic thingy to a wolverine for the time being!
Anyways, good work! It must have taken you an entire day to do this.

> 2533274941559896;2:
> You should change your waypoint pic thingy to a wolverine for the time being!
> Anyways, good work! It must have taken you an entire day to do this.

45 minutes of game play and about 2 hrs to load everything up and type up the report. I have an exam to procrastinate for so that was the primary motivation for all of this.

> 2533274840245702;3:
> > 2533274941559896;2:
> > You should change your waypoint pic thingy to a wolverine for the time being!
> > Anyways, good work! It must have taken you an entire day to do this.
>
> 45 minutes of game play and about 2 hrs to load everything up and type up the report. I have an exam to procrastinate for so that was the primary motivation for all of this.

Lol even better! Still much appreciated work and all the tests you’ve done in the past.

If you do another one of these, try 120 pop of fully upgraded (global + unit upgrades) Sentinels.

A few of the Old Gods have informed me that they’re one of the strongest armies in game. I’m curious to see what it takes to bring them down.

When it it comes to testing, don’t forget to use their Y ability, as it’s very effective.

Thank you taking the time to do all this. Great work all around, dude.

Funny enjugh… I have yet to see any evidence form the “air is OP” bros. Keep fighting the good fight.

EDIT: I am not okay with you using my “let’s get to it” line. I demand credit.

> 2533274869891714;5:
> If you do another one of these, try 120 pop of fully upgraded (global + unit upgrades) Sentinels.
>
> A few of the Old Gods have informed me that they’re one of the strongest armies in game. I’m curious to see what it takes to bring them down.
>
> When it it comes to testing, don’t forget to use their Y ability, as it’s very effective.
>
> Thank you taking the time to do all this. Great work all around, dude.
>
> Funny enjugh… I have yet to see any evidence form the “air is OP” bros. Keep fighting the good fight.
>
> EDIT: I am not okay with you using my “let’s get to it” line. I demand credit.

I can neither confirm nor deny where I get my idiosyncrasies from :stuck_out_tongue:

Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2533275004889883;7:
> Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.

It is idiots like you who don’t understand the game which pisses me off over and over again. You seen a whole 9k army wiped out by no less than less 3 turrets and shield as well as 3 Reaver too equal 1425S/1475P. That means 9k Hornets were wiped by 3k in resources and 15 population army so don’t even give me that power cost BS because your investigation was flawed from the start. If you want to start with upgrade, air is just as difficult to upgrade because they MUST counter weight their eco for supplies and deminishing returns make air spam even harder. Unless you come up with a better argument, stop wasting peoples time and especially those who are willing to give you accurate videos which take time.

> 2535428931727626;8:
> > 2533275004889883;7:
> > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.

So then you dont spend your power when going air you just let it build up all the way to 9999 xD that turrent video was a joke he couldnt even kill the 2 REAVERS left over with close to full pop!

> 2535428931727626;8:
> > 2533275004889883;7:
> > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.

Also mister who understands the game you should “UNDERSTAND” that wingman is a anti air upgrade and not really much of a anti ground and buildings upgrade so going wingman vs ground and buildings is just making the air less effective as it could be with global upgrades but i guess im just a stupid miss informed pleb… -_- -Yoink- off!

> 2533275004889883;10:
> > 2535428931727626;8:
> > > 2533275004889883;7:
> > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
>
> Also mister who understands the game you should “UNDERSTAND” that wingman is a anti air upgrade and not really much of a anti ground and buildings upgrade so going wingman vs ground and buildings is just making the air less effective as it could be with global upgrades but i guess im just a stupid miss informed pleb… -_- -Yoink- off!

I’m glad we agree :angry:

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> > 2533275004889883;10:
> > > 2535428931727626;8:
> > > > 2533275004889883;7:
> > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
>
> I’m glad we agree :angry:

We dont agree -_______________________-

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> > > 2533275004889883;10:
> > > > 2535428931727626;8:
> > > > > 2533275004889883;7:
> > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> >
> > I’m glad we agree :angry:
>
> We dont agree -_______________________-

The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.

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> > 2533275004889883;12:
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> > > > 2533275004889883;10:
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> > > > > > 2533275004889883;7:
> > > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> > >
> > > I’m glad we agree :angry:
> >
> > We dont agree -_______________________-
>
> The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.

Very very true. The air spammer must focus more on supplies than power which made even worse due to deminishing returns so the guy spamming air has a weakend economy while the guy going AA is more stable becaue their units are cheaper, effective against air, and they can produce both needed resouces.

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> > > > 2533275004889883;10:
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> > > > > > 2533275004889883;7:
> > > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> > >
> > > I’m glad we agree :angry:
> >
> > We dont agree -_______________________-
>
> The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.

Wingman is more of a anti air upgrade. The upgrade adds marines with rockets to the hornet, marines with rockets are better against air then it is against ground/buildings. Going air means you need more supply pads compared to a guy going anti air yes thats true. But the guy going air will be able to upgrade his supply pads alot quicker compared to the guy going for anti air. Which means you make more blue money a second. Which means you can then get up more generators and second bases. And any ways the guy in the video who went anti air also went hogs/locus/maruders which is pretty much equal to the cost as air anyways so…

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> > > > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> > > >
> > > > I’m glad we agree :angry:
> > >
> > > We dont agree -_______________________-
> >
> > The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.
>
> Wingman is more of a anti air upgrade. The upgrade adds marines with rockets to the hornet, marines with rockets are better against air then it is against ground/buildings. Going air means you need more supply pads compared to a guy going anti air yes thats true. But the guy going air will be able to upgrade his supply pads alot quicker compared to the guy going for anti air. Which means you make more blue money a second. Which means you can then get up more generators and second bases. And any ways the guy in the video who went anti air also went hogs/locus/maruders which is pretty much equal to the cost as air anyways so…

what are you not getting about deminishing returns? If I must, i’ll create a chart that shows the relations to supply pads income and supply pads built.

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> > > > > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m glad we agree :angry:
> > > >
> > > > We dont agree -_______________________-
> > >
> > > The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.
> >
> > Wingman is more of a anti air upgrade. The upgrade adds marines with rockets to the hornet, marines with rockets are better against air then it is against ground/buildings. Going air means you need more supply pads compared to a guy going anti air yes thats true. But the guy going air will be able to upgrade his supply pads alot quicker compared to the guy going for anti air. Which means you make more blue money a second. Which means you can then get up more generators and second bases. And any ways the guy in the video who went anti air also went hogs/locus/maruders which is pretty much equal to the cost as air anyways so…
>
> what are you not getting about deminishing returns? If I must, i’ll create a chart that shows the relations to supply pads income and supply pads built.

What does diminishing returns have to do with this?

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

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> > > > > > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m glad we agree :angry:
> > > > >
> > > > > We dont agree -_______________________-
> > > >
> > > > The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.
> > >
> > > Wingman is more of a anti air upgrade. The upgrade adds marines with rockets to the hornet, marines with rockets are better against air then it is against ground/buildings. Going air means you need more supply pads compared to a guy going anti air yes thats true. But the guy going air will be able to upgrade his supply pads alot quicker compared to the guy going for anti air. Which means you make more blue money a second. Which means you can then get up more generators and second bases. And any ways the guy in the video who went anti air also went hogs/locus/maruders which is pretty much equal to the cost as air anyways so…
> >
> > what are you not getting about deminishing returns? If I must, i’ll create a chart that shows the relations to supply pads income and supply pads built.
>
> What does diminishing returns have to do with this?

wow I don’t even know why I try. Talk to THEWALL or something because I almost think your too stupid to understand.

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> > > > > > > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’m glad we agree :angry:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We dont agree -_______________________-
> > > > >
> > > > > The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.
> > > >
> > > > Wingman is more of a anti air upgrade. The upgrade adds marines with rockets to the hornet, marines with rockets are better against air then it is against ground/buildings. Going air means you need more supply pads compared to a guy going anti air yes thats true. But the guy going air will be able to upgrade his supply pads alot quicker compared to the guy going for anti air. Which means you make more blue money a second. Which means you can then get up more generators and second bases. And any ways the guy in the video who went anti air also went hogs/locus/maruders which is pretty much equal to the cost as air anyways so…
> > >
> > > what are you not getting about deminishing returns? If I must, i’ll create a chart that shows the relations to supply pads income and supply pads built.
> >
> > What does diminishing returns have to do with this?

You dont even adress my points yet im the stupid one yeah ok… going air means you are going to have a better supply eco while going anti air means you are going to have a better power eco how is that hard to understand? If you go air you need more supply pads plus you will have spare energy to upgrade supply pads therefore you will make more supply/sec compared to going anti air which means you need to build more generators and use your energy for unit production which means you will have more power/sec but worse supply/sec

Therefore
air = better supply eco higher supply/sec
Anti air = better power eco higher power/sec

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> > > > > > > 2533275004889883;7:
> > > > > > > Your tests made no sense due to you massively handicapping the air units. Test 1 you made is so air spent zero power! Air should be spending around the same power on upgrades for the test to be a valid test. Test 2 air spent 2000 less power wtf. Test 3 was better but you still made air spend alot less power compared to the vechicles spending power. In a real game the air player would be buying global upgrades or trying to get to teir 3 rather than going for upgraded pop. If you actually made the test a fair and valid test with air matching the same total of spent power then the result would be alot different. Also air should always focus anti air units first.
> > > >
> > > > I’m glad we agree :angry:
> > >
> > > We dont agree -_______________________-
> >
> > The contention for why more power is not spent on the air upgrades is because in an actual game that player spamming air should have less power and worse economy than the AA player. The AA player is going to have far more supplies which equals earlier/more expos and generators. As far as wingman upgrade vs global air upgrade, I’d honestly be shocked if it made that large of a difference, and honestly would expect wingman hornets to outperform air 1 hornets. Wingman has never seemed to be geared towards other air specifically, and I can certainly vouch that is significantly increases their effectiveness against vehicle armies.
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> Wingman is more of a anti air upgrade. The upgrade adds marines with rockets to the hornet, marines with rockets are better against air then it is against ground/buildings. Going air means you need more supply pads compared to a guy going anti air yes thats true. But the guy going air will be able to upgrade his supply pads alot quicker compared to the guy going for anti air. Which means you make more blue money a second. Which means you can then get up more generators and second bases. And any ways the guy in the video who went anti air also went hogs/locus/maruders which is pretty much equal to the cost as air anyways so…

Stop trolling