Why do I think Halo Infinite is just as sweaty as Halo 5. Its because modern game developers like 343 think gamer’s are stupid. This might get lengthy. Back in the day the only tools players had to know that damage was being dealt was visual red markers on the players HUD that was taking damage with a touch of added vibration. Also the shields would react and grow brighter for the player doing the damage. Bullets and plasma would also do a little splatter animation once they hit something. This was immersive and the basics to let players know that shots where connecting. All these were very advanced compared to the first shooters like Doom and Duke Nukem. I believe those even had screen flashing for taking damage.
Modern games have added a few things that are mostly redundant but also tactically harmful to anyone playing casually and/or stealthy. Hit markers are redundant if visually you can see shield flare and hit animation of rounds on enemy players. As a tactically harmful example hit markers on grenades has spawned the sweatiness of nadeing spawns and random doorways to find players by way of hit markers. This makes players mad at the game, not at the enemy players for the tactics they use in the game design and it makes players feel cheated by the game.
Glint on snipers never used to be a thing, examples Halo:CE, H2, H3, SOCOM, CoD the early years. Halo used to just have the shot lines but you could zoom and look without being spotted from every where on the map. Halo Infinite’s sniper scope is the light of a dwarf star, wtf. You remember the laser indicators on the prometheon sniper and the glowing shield on the turret. The glint is once again redundant if the shot lines and muzzle flash are done well. This would allow players to use snipers, like they are meant to be used. Instead with the glint being added to modern games everyone runs around to quick scope players just to avoid the glint. Which in turn makes the developers add more aim assist like the H5 sniper and the game more sweaty again. Now in Infinite there is a level of glint on every gun with a scope, BR, Commando, etc.
Players outlines that damage the ability to use the lighting in the map for stealth (gotta make sacrifices for the monetization) which is redundant if players colors make you stick out anyway (H5), Mark/Ping, Radar that shows everything including what elevation enemies are at. No friendly fire or player collision. Dynamo grenades that point to enemies in range. The glowing flag that lights up the corner of the room your in with revealed indicator while sprinting, will stealth capping even exist in the future? The Threat Sensor can even see through walls just like prometheon vision for Halo 4. They can’t even add fall damage because they think we’re to stupid to realize certain heights can hurt you. All these things help players find other players faster and make the game more sweaty and dumb down the game play hunt. In the modern game of cat and mouse the cat has all the best tools. Most games show enemy names and life bars above the players. How many more crutches to players need? Maybe they could put a waypoint on any player that is carrying a power weapon? Perhaps make the players footsteps even louder? Maybe add footprints to track player movements? Make maps with less hiding/defensible positions (3 ways)? Most 4v4 maps are small anyway do we really need help finding other players in a box? Are we going to get lost?
I remember going back into the theater on Halo 3 and sometimes you would see players on opposite teams walk right by each other because neither were looking in the right direction. That’s why you check your corners and clear a room. I feel the only thing ever added that was an improvement was vibration and the better vibration of the xbox one and series contollers. That’s a good indicator for your taking damage and now from which direction. I wouldn’t be opposed to added a slight vibration for players sprinting near others like the ground is shaking for players with hearing loss.
I hope all of these are options in customs because I want to share Halo with my family (kids) and friends (co-workers) but none are sweaty players, they are all casual and have a laid back way to gaming. Most don’t even look at the radar, if that tells you anything. What do you think? Do players need all this? Are game companies like 343 running players off because anyone starting into their games are going to be dominated by the players that use every tool put into the game against new or laid back players? I know its not just 343 but a lot of gaming companies have added many of these things to speed up their game play but I feel overall its turning more gamers away.
I dislike alot of things you dislike, but it seems like an attempt at handholding to me more than an attempt to intentionally make the game more tryhard–though I agree that could be the inevitable conclusion.
What’s great though is whatever part of the community we come from, alot of us can agree we don’t want pelted with information. Both at a video and audio level this game floods the player with noise. There have been alot of threads about reducing these things so I’m hopeful there will at least be disable options.
But I agree there could still be damaging effects to the game regardless of if we can disable things.
You make an interesting point that all these crutches put in the game actually makes more players better than your average casual gamer that just plays a few times a month. This makes it more difficult to just jump in and enjoy a few hours without being destroyed by kids who play all the time and understand all the tools and visual queues that are being given by the developers.
There’s many more things that can be added to this list that is helping close the skill gap, and that’s what is really happening “closing the skill gap”. By that, I mean more players are seemingly good at the game making it more difficult to play if you are not in that group of players.
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> Why do I think Halo Infinite is just as sweaty as Halo 5. Its because modern game developers like 343 think gamer’s are stupid. This might get lengthy. Back in the day the only tools players had to know that damage was being dealt was visual red markers on the players HUD that was taking damage with a touch of added vibration. Also the shields would react and grow brighter for the player doing the damage. Bullets and plasma would also do a little splatter animation once they hit something. This was immersive and the basics to let players know that shots where connecting. All these were very advanced compared to the first shooters like Doom and Duke Nukem. I believe those even had screen flashing for taking damage.
>
> Modern games have added a few things that are mostly redundant but also tactically harmful to anyone playing casually and/or stealthy. Hit markers are redundant if visually you can see shield flare and hit animation of rounds on enemy players. As a tactically harmful example hit markers on grenades has spawned the sweatiness of nadeing spawns and random doorways to find players by way of hit markers. This makes players mad at the game, not at the enemy players for the tactics they use in the game design and it makes players feel cheated by the game.
>
> Glint on snipers never used to be a thing, examples Halo:CE, H2, H3, SOCOM, CoD the early years. Halo used to just have the shot lines but you could zoom and look without being spotted from every where on the map. Halo Infinite’s sniper scope is the light of a dwarf star, wtf. You remember the laser indicators on the prometheon sniper and the glowing shield on the turret. The glint is once again redundant if the shot lines and muzzle flash are done well. This would allow players to use snipers, like they are meant to be used. Instead with the glint being added to modern games everyone runs around to quick scope players just to avoid the glint. Which in turn makes the developers add more aim assist like the H5 sniper and the game more sweaty again. Now in Infinite there is a level of glint on every gun with a scope, BR, Commando, etc.
>
> Players outlines that damage the ability to use the lighting in the map for stealth (gotta make sacrifices for the monetization) which is redundant if players colors make you stick out anyway (H5), Mark/Ping, Radar that shows everything including what elevation enemies are at. No friendly fire or player collision. Dynamo grenades that point to enemies in range. The glowing flag that lights up the corner of the room your in with revealed indicator while sprinting, will stealth capping even exist in the future? The Threat Sensor can even see through walls just like prometheon vision for Halo 4. They can’t even add fall damage because they think we’re to stupid to realize certain heights can hurt you. All these things help players find other players faster and make the game more sweaty and dumb down the game play hunt. In the modern game of cat and mouse the cat has all the best tools. Most games show enemy names and life bars above the players. How many more crutches to players need? Maybe they could put a waypoint on any player that is carrying a power weapon? Perhaps make the players footsteps even louder? Maybe add footprints to track player movements? Make maps with less hiding/defensible positions (3 ways)? Most 4v4 maps are small anyway do we really need help finding other players in a box? Are we going to get lost?
>
> I remember going back into the theater on Halo 3 and sometimes you would see players on opposite teams walk right by each other because neither were looking in the right direction. That’s why you check your corners and clear a room. I feel the only thing ever added that was an improvement was vibration and the better vibration of the xbox one and series contollers. That’s a good indicator for your taking damage and now from which direction. I wouldn’t be opposed to added a slight vibration for players sprinting near others like the ground is shaking for players with hearing loss.
>
> I hope all of these are options in customs because I want to share Halo with my family (kids) and friends (co-workers) but none are sweaty players, they are all casual and have a laid back way to gaming. Most don’t even look at the radar, if that tells you anything. What do you think? Do players need all this? Are game companies like 343 running players off because anyone starting into their games are going to be dominated by the players that use every tool put into the game against new or laid back players? I know its not just 343 but a lot of gaming companies have added many of these things to speed up their game play but I feel overall its turning more gamers away.
Modern games have to be made as casual friendly as possible to bring in the most people possible. That’s how these games survive. Casual players have been the bread and butter of AAA games since the MW2 era which is why we’ve seen an emphasis on “making games more accessible” across the board since then. I don’t like a lot of the features I would call “training wheels” either but the competitive settings do look like they’re more up my alley so I still have a chance to play the game the way I want to.
I think you may just be out of touch with what makes a game more or less competitive, or “sweaty” as you put it.
A lot of the design of Halo Infinite is very clearly made to onboard new players and make the experience more fun for them. Not only do they have the training modes, some form of skill based matchmaking, but the casual game modes we have seen so far are tailored towards a lesser skilled playerbase and make it more difficult to punish newer players. I’m sure your family and co-workers can have a great time playing Big Team Battle. They really look like they have made something great with this one to appease the most amount of players, they really have.
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> Modern games have to be made as casual friendly as possible to bring in the most people possible. That’s how these games survive. Casual players have been the bread and butter of AAA games since the MW2 era which is why we’ve seen an emphasis on “making games more accessible” across the board since then. I don’t like a lot of the features I would call “training wheels” either but the competitive settings do look like they’re more up my alley so I still have a chance to play the game the way I want to.
I agree making games more accessible is a good thing, to me that more a hardware issue. Adding mouse and keyboard or different controllers. Having the feature to remap controllers too helps this. However I think at lot of the training wheels have a lot of unintended side effects that impact the way people can play the game. People use and abuse everything they can get their hands on. If people told casuals ahead of time about all the things mentioned I don’t think many would even try the game. I did have a co-worker that plays a ton of shooters, he plays CoD daily. He got so destroyed during the flight I had to listen to a rant about it. Over the last few weeks calmly talking about it at work. That’s where I came to this conclusion about all the added info on how to hunt players down.
The free-to-play model forces their hand to make this as nurturing as possible to new players. In practice, it makes the player feel like the developer thinks they’re big dum dum. Ex. “Picked up a skewer” Thanks… I can see that.
I like your feedback a lot, you made excellent points and explained them really well! I agree with almost everything you said. 343 is providing too much information to the player and the game has become cluttered with audio and visuals that simply aren’t needed. Why do we need to hear a sound effect after every kill and assist? The sound isn’t subtle either, it’s loud and heavy and at times makes other important sound details go unheard.
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> How many more crutches to players need? Maybe they could put a waypoint on any player that is carrying a power weapon? Perhaps make the players footsteps even louder? Maybe add footprints to track player movements? Make maps with less hiding/defensible positions (3 ways)? Most 4v4 maps are small anyway do we really need help finding other players in a box? Are we going to get lost?
I fully understand your frustration because this is exactly how I feel. It’s really annoying. It’s as if Infinite is being made for kids in kindergarten who need every kind of visual and audio indicator and alert to help them navigate through the game and understand what’s happening. It almost feels insulting. We all know this isn’t 343’s intention and that they’re trying hard to balance things and make it all work out but they must understand this point about feeding too much unnecessary information to the player.
Maybe 343 has seen the montages people make and took their inspiration from there? Gamers always make montages look flashy and sporty and add in unnecessary audio and visual effects and other information but it’s just for aesthetics and viewing pleasure. These things only belong in a montage and not in the actual game. This is actually what 343 seems to be trying to do, to make Infinite feel like a sporty-montage with all these flashy bits of information and elements perhaps thinking that the fans will like it when in actual fact, from what I can see and feel, most fans dislike it. These things do not belong in a Halo game, it takes away from everything that makes Halo feel like Halo.
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> I remember going back into the theater on Halo 3 and sometimes you would see players on opposite teams walk right by each other because neither were looking in the right direction. That’s why you check your corners and clear a room.
I’m so glad you brought this up! My god, this is exactly why I said Halo Infinite has eliminated stealth play. If you haven’t already read my feedback on Infinite I’d love for you to read it and let me know your thoughts. I also go into detail about the outline system. I think you’ll find it interesting. Every post on this forum increases the chance of 343 seeing our feedback and I’d appreciate it if you can respond there when you get the time.
I can see where you are coming from. That being said I feel like a lot of your issues that you mention here will not be present in at least the ranked side of things in Halo Infinite. Stuff like grenade hitmarkers being uses as almost mini radars of sorts won’t work in Ranked because grenade hitmarkers are disabled. Motion Sensor/Radar as a whole will also not be present in ranked. As for player outlines I can see what you are saying about not being able to sneak in a corner or a shadowy area in order to surprise enemies. I don’t think there is really a great solution to this except for if they make the entire game just Red Vs. Blue again which would defeat the purpose of much of their monetization/customization stuff. However I don’t really think Halo has ever been about crouching in a dark corner waiting for people to walk by and not see you simply because you were in a dark corner. Halo maps in general have never really been about not being able to see your opponent in certain areas. For me personally one of the hallmarks of Halo map design is that if an enemy is in your line of sight they should be readily visible rather than fading into an obscure part of the map or blending into the background. Now I will agree that player highlighting is borderline overboard in the other direction of almost calling out enemies a bit too much and I’m sure there is some kind of middle ground to be had here. Perhaps the enemy outline should only appear once you directly point your gun at an enemy? In fact by that logic make it so that I don’t constantly see my teammate’s outline through walls. The added clutter of seeing my friendly outlines is just a bit much.
In regards to the other things you mentioned, I think it is more of an industry wide movement to make games more accessible. Things like hitmarkers in general, sniper glint, mark/ping systems and the like serve to help gamers who may not be as talented or as able to put massive amounts of hours into a game. I think you have an interesting point in that adding things to help players better understand what is happening during a game can make the game more sweaty. I think that comes down to the fact that the playing field is leveling out a bit so you have to do more to stand out and be victorious. That can be translated as making a game more sweaty but you can also look at it as a way to get more players engaged in your game. A similar case can be made about SBMM which everyone complains about. Yes it makes games for players at the higher end harder because now they have to play against players on their skill level much more often, but it also has a strong effect on the lower end as well. Now gamers who are less skilled will be playing against people of their similar skill level and playing in what feels like competitive games for them rather than being dominated by players who are above them in the skill bracket a majority of the time. I personally believe that systems such as mark/ping systems and general better readability/understanding of how a game works and functions helps gamers more than it hurts gamers.
Usually “Sweaty” is how it feels when other people are trying harder than you’re trying at the current moment.
If people are on comms, I play more seriously. - If others are fragging better than me, I devote myself to the objective or other support. - If nobody is organized, I start doing dumb/aggressive stuff.
The glint is pretty massive, but ties into the outline system.
People who wanna push 60/40ing all the way to 90/10 behind trees/rocks at bottlenecks aren’t being “Stealth” they’re just live camping. Like holding an angle in Siege is fine, but in Halo (especially BTB) it’s just trying to cheese. The outline handles that, so if you’re peaking while I’m looking at that lane, I know you’re there. Which is fair, you can still do that, but people low or high skill will immediately be able to counter you.
It might also feel sweaty because people are being extra aggressive in a lot of scenarios, otherwise they’re anchored to recover. Again the various mechanics at play funnel you into taking action. For a game without deathcam, there’s a refreshingly low amount of “what killed me”, you have enough information being fed to you to react to things. Higher skilled players can do more without the lower skilled players just running in circles.
Another way at looking at it is you’re either in the firefight or you’re not