Do you really have a problem with melee bleedthrough?

Games Other Halo
1

Or perhaps its

Bullet Bleedthrough?

I think a lot of complaints about bleedthrough are simply about bullet bleedthrough. It can be quite inconsistent and is hard to judge, especially when your shields are recharging an you’re 1/2 or 3/4 full and it sometimes appears that a single headshot from a DMR kills you. Along with even the tiniest sliver of shields gone from a grenade will cause you to be 4 shot. Headshot bleedthrough just wasn’t done right in the TU, mainly due to because Reach was made without it, it just doesn’t work correctly because of how health works.

Or could it be

Poor settings?

Now let me elaborate a bit on this but first lets look at why we (Bleedthrough supporters) like it and why we have a problem with no bleedthrough. I assure you we’ll find some common ground here.

We like it because its good for gameplay, not just because its been in previous Halos or because it makes Halo “Halo” but because it makes sense. There’s no logical explanation why 3 shots+beatdown does the same amount of damage as a single beatdown (trading kills because of this is so illogical and often frustrating). Bleedthrough rewards shooting in a First Person Shooter, it doesn’t promote mindless, poor gameplay like the “derpdown” (going for the double melee) or even worse the sprint double melee.

Now why don’t you guys like it? I seem to see only one reason, the AR rush+beatdown. You guys make it seem like such a huge problem, past and present, when it really has never been if you played “correctly” (well or smart). I’m not trying to bash but simply you guys are playing “mindlessly”. Try picking up a DMR or Needle Rifle, keeping your distance, establishing map control and not trying to rush them for the beatdown yourselves. A lot more often than not you’ll kill the mindless “kid” trying to AR rush beat you down before he gets close. Seriously try this and see if it helps.

Now I seem to have gotten a bit off track, it did have a point though but back to settings. We have some common ground here, poor settings. Bloom and Sprint are bad for gameplay, especially in this case. They make beatdowns way too “easy” and way too reliable, a FPS no less. Bloom hindering one from killing an opponent before they get to them because of the added randomness and inconsistency. Sprint making it way too easy to close the gap between the players, thus allowing/promoting such mindless gameplay.

Lets take a look at a playlist like MLG. The MLG playlist is no doubt the most competitive playlist within Reach, simply because of the settings it uses. Some of these settings are Zero Bloom, No Sprint and Bleedthrough. The “derp down” happens so very rarely, simply because the settings do not promote it and makes it so ineffective to try to do so. Why? Because with Zero Bloom and No Sprint its very hard for someone to try to go for a double beatdown, on top of that you have bleedthrough which allows for a 3 shot beatdown kill. If someone is trying to “derp you” they’re more often than not far enough away (no sprint to close that gap easily) you can get in at least 3 shots before they reach you, thus allowing you to get the kill you deserve and not trading. Better yet, a lot of times you can 5 shot them.

Or can it really be

Melee Bleedthrough?

Now I personally really can not see why you have an actual reason for not liking melee bleedthrough for the entire “essay” typed above.

Do you really have a problem with melee bleedthrough itself or one of the other listings?

If you guys do have such a problem with melee bleedthrough itself, why don’t I ever see people on this forum complaining about Plasma Rifle+beatdowns? Or two (2) Plasma Pistol shots+beatdowns? Both of these weapons are so much better and effective with shoot+beatdown than an AR and very common on all maps, with the Plasma Pistol raining supreme.

So let me ask you one more time, is it Melee Bleedthrough, Bullet Bleedthrough or simply just poor settings?

Please post your thoughts and discuss.

2

I have had no problems what so ever but I can see why its maybe affecting Reach more then other titles when you factor in sprint.

Bleed + Sprint = Bad

Classic Movement + Bleed = Better

In my eyes its not going to affect gameplay too much.

3

I like bullet bleedthrough as it pertained to getting that last headshot through shields if someone had low health. Although there was no visual indicator built into it, it rewarded accurate shooting. I also liked it where you could beat down someone who charged in on you after you put two shots into them and you could punish their charge with a beatdown and kill.

This part I might have wrong (so correct me if i am), but I didn’t like bleedthrough with default speed settings as it pertained to grenades. 1 shot and a perfectly placed grenade (or spammed/lucky grenade however you want to look at it) would kill, and the Spartan IIIs you get in this game, whom apparently cannot jump higher than Jeremy Lin and move as fast as a defensive tackle, aren’t quick enough to avoid said grenade and you get killed. Grenades needed a nerf or bleedthrough not applied to them. Grenades shouldn’t kill with a body shot followed by grenade. Halo 3 rewarded a skillfully placed grenade to drop shields followed by a headshot. The explosive damage coupled with bleedthrough has caused me more rage since its implementation than anything.

4

> I have had no problems what so ever but I can see why its maybe affecting Reach more then other titles when you factor in sprint.
>
> Bleed + Sprint = Bad

No Bleed + Sprint = Bad

Bleed + ZB/85% + Sprint = Better but not great

ZB + No Sprint + Bleed = Great

Whats the common denominator?

Sprint = Bad

5

Meleeing someone for a kill when they have full health and 70% shields is the problem overall by removing shield popping.

75% melees does “fix” this, but since bullets and melees are not seperate entities to bleed-through in Reach, we cannt have our cake and eat it too.

75% melee attached to the TU settings, with shield popping reinstated, prevents players from double-pummeling a fully healed enemy with an ambush, yet still allows a sprinter to choose weakened targets and double-pummel them due to their weakened state.

Yes Halo4 could use shield popping with the basic weapons and allow melee bleed-through to health. They could alter the health-shield ratio back to 1:1 instead of the 2:1 it Halo2-Reach.
But that is Halo4, not Reach.

6

> I like bullet bleedthrough as it pertained to getting that last headshot through shields if someone had low health. Although there was no visual indicator built into it, it rewarded accurate shooting. I also liked it where you could beat down someone who charged in on you after you put two shots into them and you could punish their charge with a beatdown and kill.
>
> This part I might have wrong (so correct me if i am), but I didn’t like bleedthrough with default speed settings as it pertained to grenades. 1 shot and a perfectly placed grenade (or spammed/lucky grenade however you want to look at it) would kill, and the Spartan IIIs you get in this game, whom apparently cannot jump higher than Jeremy Lin and move as fast as a defensive tackle, aren’t quick enough to avoid said grenade and you get killed. Grenades needed a nerf or bleedthrough not applied to them. Grenades shouldn’t kill with a body shot followed by grenade. Halo 3 rewarded a skillfully placed grenade to drop shields followed by a headshot. The explosive damage coupled with bleedthrough has caused me more rage since its implementation than anything.

I like what bullet bleedthrough tries to achieve but as I stated it simply wasn’t done correctly, because Reach is still Reach. It can make it inconsistent, so I’m wondering if people don’t like bleedthrough because when they hear the word they think of bullet bleedthrough and not melee bleedthrough?

As for Default speed and nades. Yes the default movement speed in this game is slowed down because we have AA’s, which make avoiding nades harder (also makes strafing impractical, complied with Bloom+Bullet Magnetism). Their fuse time is way too short and how they made the nades different from past Halos. The damage doesn’t just drop off after x distance anymore, the damage gets weaker as the radius expands. This wouldn’t be a problem if the fuse time was slightly longer. In the TU I wished they did address this and increase the fuse time because the only AA that allows you to dodge a nade effectively is evade (which they’re removing).

7

people never really says what they don’t like about bleed through, it was always “this sucks!” with no real definition about which part that sucks and then argue around a specific part while ignoring others …

the main problem with bullet bleed through is that it messes with the damage ratios on the weapons, see here, how ever 125% damage and 150% damage resistence is a decent solution but it isn’t very user friendly, it greatly increases kill times and speeds up the game, such a drastic change isn’t really wise this late, earlier on yes because it would have given people time to adjust and such but now they are set in their ways so it isn’t going to be a good idea and probably push people away from the game.

another problem is that the DMR is single shot, this allows bleed through to actually reward bad players with kills every now and then because they only have to land 1 bullet, if it was the BR and it’s 3 shot burst it is a different story because you have to land more then 1 bullet, this seperates the good from the bad because the good player will have those bullets land while the bad player will most likely miss most of them, this little difference has a big impact.

something that is a personal annoyance is how it looks on the shield bar, shields then dead with no sign of it dropping down, in halo 3 it never bothered me because you would see the shield bar drain from bullet to bullet before you died so it gave the sense that your shields were being drained before getting killed instead of being killed while your shields are up.

as for melee, in both bleed through and no bleed through it is over powered, way to strong, in bleed through i find melee to be more powerfull since most of the time it is 1 hit melee = kill instead of 2 hit = kill when i encounter someone or get in close, this discourages me from using my gun and just using my fist, of course 75% melee fixes this because it requires you to drain shields before melee can kill, but, in bleed through this reduces the skill gap very slightly,

in bleed through on 75% melee, 3 DMR shots then a melee = read health, a DMR shot to the body = kill, all though this is nice aiming for the body is quite an easy thing to do after swinging a melee, but, in no bleed through this same situation will leaves you on full health, so, a boy shot can’t kill you but headshot will, the bad player goes for body shots and looses while the good player goes for headshots and wins, it is a small difference but quite a common occurrence.

no bleed through generally is the more user friendly solution to the problems that bleed through has, but, no bleed needs 75% melee to be optimal.

and apocalypse, what are you doing here? i thought you didn’t like waypoint… ?

8

i agree.

9

Nope, melee bleedthrough was silly too.
3-4 AR bullets out of a 32 round magazine and I get left with one bar of health after a punch? Nah.

10

> people never really says what they don’t like about bleed through, it was always “this sucks!” with no real definition about which part that sucks and then argue around a specific part while ignoring others …

Which is why this thread was made, to ask what they really have a problem with.

> the main problem with bullet bleed through is that it messes with the damage ratios on the weapons, see here,

Yep, I know this. Try a single Plasma Pistol shot then DMR. Turns into 2 or 3 shot, I think 2. Don’t remember exactly. Might be handy, if only the action delays weren’t so long :x

> how ever 125% damage and 150% damage resistence is a decent solution but it isn’t very user friendly, it greatly increases kill times and speeds up the game, such a drastic change isn’t really wise this late, earlier on yes because it would have given people time to adjust and such but now they are set in their ways so it isn’t going to be a good idea and probably push people away from the game.

Yeah those settings are quite good, those were the settings I played in custom games months ago, I enjoyed them. It makes headshots more consistent and “nerfs” explosions (nades/rockets) slightly. But it turns the DMR into a 4sk, which doesn’t go over so well with some players. While I personally don’t care weather its 4 or 5, some people do. And I know there are arguments for both and I’d rather not go into them with anyone.

> another problem is that the DMR is single shot, this allows bleed through to actually reward bad players with kills every now and then because they only have to land 1 bullet, if it was the BR and it’s 3 shot burst it is a different story because you have to land more then 1 bullet, this seperates the good from the bad because the good player will have those bullets land while the bad player will most likely miss most of them, this little difference has a big impact.

I think this is more of a problem of just a bunch of factors within Reach that make aiming just “easy”.

> as for melee, in both bleed through and no bleed through it is over powered, way to strong, in bleed through i find melee to be more powerfull since most of the time it is 1 hit melee = kill instead of 2 hit = kill when i encounter someone or get in close, this discourages me from using my gun and just using my fist, of course 75% melee fixes this because it requires you to drain shields before melee can kill, but, in bleed through this reduces the skill gap very slightly,

So bad settings?

> in bleed through on 75% melee, 3 DMR shots then a melee = read health, a DMR shot to the body = kill,
>
> all though this is nice aiming for the body is quite an easy thing to do after swinging a melee, but, in no bleed through this same situation will leaves you on full health, so, a boy shot can’t kill you but headshot will, the bad player goes for body shots and looses while the good player goes for headshots and wins, it is a small difference but quite a common occurrence.

Its actually a shot anywhere I believe, not just the chest. Can be the “toe”.

Another situation is (theres bleedthrough for this and 75% melee) Player B goes for a double melee but gets shot 3 times and beatdown by Player A, both players at this time jump backwards. Player A only needs to shoot Player B anywhere for the kill, while Player B needs to get the headshot. A small difference but rewards shooting an not goin for the “derp down” non the less.

> and apocalypse, what are you doing here? i thought you didn’t like waypoint… ?

Someone needs to set the kids here straight. We’ve let this forum run rampant for too long, its in terrible shape. A number of us should be posting here, maturely giving our stance on things, why we think the way we do etc. Halo’s future looks grim for us based on how these forums are, it really does, we need to help.

11

I had no problem with either kind of bleedthrough - they both made the game better. And in my many games of TU Reach, I never saw ANY of these problems people complained about for bleedthrough - while I don’t doubt they existed, I do doubt they were common enough to worth doing anything over.

The only change I would’ve made is to make Melee 75% strength, so that it would be a 3HK like it was in older Halos. That would’ve solved any problem with melee bleedthrough.

12

> Whats the common denominator?
>
> Sprint = Bad

That’s generally because AA’s don’t belong in default Halo.

I honestly haven’t had any problems with either bleedthrough because a 5sk DMR makes it so that 4 shots take out shields and that the 5th is the headshot, and that if you have a sliver of shield left, you’re dead. Melee bleedthrough just makes the shots I put onto a target more valuable than without it, though 110% resist (with 110% damage) with 90% melee can help it from being too “bad”.

13

> > Whats the common denominator?
> >
> > Sprint = Bad
>
> That’s generally because AA’s don’t belong in default Halo.

Baby steps xero.

You forget we need to explain literally everything here in depth.

14

> > > Whats the common denominator?
> > >
> > > Sprint = Bad
> >
> > That’s generally because AA’s don’t belong in default Halo.
>
> Baby steps xero.
>
> You forget we need to explain literally everything here in depth.

I’d try, but I’ve had a headache the last 4 days; what a wonderful time for it, eh?

At least they’re thinking a bit more with increased movement in heavies, although I dislike Sprint still being there.

15

> We like it because its good for gameplay, not just because its been in previous Halos or because it makes Halo “Halo” but because it makes sense. There’s no logical explanation why 3 shots+beatdown does the same amount of damage as a single beatdown (trading kills because of this is so illogical and often frustrating).

And there’s no logical explanation as to why 6 AR hits + melee = 18 AR hits + melee, yet this is what happens with the TU’s bleedthrough (assuming both players start with full shields and health). But with no-bleedthrough, 18 AR hits + melee wins over 6 AR hits + melee [you can change the 6 AR hits to any number from 7 to 10, and the 18 AR hits to any number from 11 to 17, with the same results].

The real question with 3 shots + beatdown doing the same amount of damage as a single beatdown is: Why are you using a DMR/NR against someone that close? Or with a Magnum, why did you stop shooting after the third hit?

> Bleedthrough rewards shooting in a First Person Shooter, it doesn’t promote mindless, poor gameplay like the “derpdown” (going for the double melee) or even worse the sprint double melee.

Bleedthrough rewards and promotes meleeing after you’ve scored a few hits with your weapon. And why exactly is a double melee mindless poor play if it works?

> Now why don’t you guys like it? I seem to see only one reason, the AR rush+beatdown. You guys make it seem like such a huge problem, past and present, when it really has never been if you played “correctly” (well or smart). I’m not trying to bash but simply you guys are playing “mindlessly”. Try picking up a DMR or Needle Rifle, keeping your distance, establishing map control and not trying to rush them for the beatdown yourselves.

And this exact same style of playing will work against the success, and minimize the occurrence, of the dreaded double melee in Reach 1.0 as well. Try it.

16

> > We like it because its good for gameplay, not just because its been in previous Halos or because it makes Halo “Halo” but because it makes sense. There’s no logical explanation why 3 shots+beatdown does the same amount of damage as a single beatdown (trading kills because of this is so illogical and often frustrating).
>
> And there’s no logical explanation as to why 6 AR hits + melee = 18 AR hits + melee, yet this is what happens with the TU’s bleedthrough (assuming both players start with full shields and health). But with no-bleedthrough, 18 AR hits + melee wins over 6 AR hits + melee [you can change the 6 AR hits to any number from 7 to 10, and the 18 AR hits to any number from 11 to 17, with the same results].
>
> The real question with 3 shots + beatdown doing the same amount of damage as a single beatdown is: Why are you using a DMR/NR against someone that close? Or with a Magnum, why did you stop shooting after the third hit?
>
>
> > Bleedthrough rewards shooting in a First Person Shooter, it doesn’t promote mindless, poor gameplay like the “derpdown” (going for the double melee) or even worse the sprint double melee.
>
> Bleedthrough rewards and promotes meleeing after you’ve scored a few hits with your weapon. And why exactly is a double melee mindless poor play if it works?
>
>
> > Now why don’t you guys like it? I seem to see only one reason, the AR rush+beatdown. You guys make it seem like such a huge problem, past and present, when it really has never been if you played “correctly” (well or smart). I’m not trying to bash but simply you guys are playing “mindlessly”. Try picking up a DMR or Needle Rifle, keeping your distance, establishing map control and not trying to rush them for the beatdown yourselves.
>
> And this exact same style of playing will work against the success, and minimize the occurrence, of the dreaded double melee in Reach 1.0 as well. Try it.

You can back away from an AR rusher at almost the same rate that they’re approaching you. If a player is sprinting at you with the intention of double meleeing you, there’s little you can do about it.

17

My only complaint was Bullet Bleedthrough. Reach is the only game without Melee Bleedthrough, and it’s the only one where I get angry at the melees not making sense.

18

> My only complaint was Bullet Bleedthrough. Reach is the only game without Melee Bleedthrough, and it’s the only one where I get angry at the melees not making sense.

It can be frustrating that 3 shots+melee= 1 melee and you trade for no apparent reason.