Do they Want us to Hate everyone in Kilo-5?

I finally finished the Thursday War (I know, it took forever, I hated the book, at least the first half)and after reading it I can’t help but wonder why Travvis seems so intent on making me hate absolutely everybody in the book…?

I get that she writes from the perspectives of the characters, so obviously each character has their reasons for doing whatever they will be doing, but the cross contamination of opinions really makes me have a hard time liking anyone…

Spoilers about Thursday War coming up…

First of all, Parangosky is easily the worst character (I am referring to morality) in the book series. I will explain why later, but for now I can’t help but feel that Travvis is trying to make us like and support Parangosky… a futile attempt because she is clearly freaking crazy. I was so disappointed she didn’t die in the book (which I was confused about because Osman and not her shows up in Halo 4).

Firstly the whole plan is ridiculous. I know we could argue the morality till the end of time but the fact of the matter is Parangosky is off her rocker here. And considering the reader (and likely, game players perspective) the Arbiter is a character that we like and respect because we have played as him and understand his path. We know some of his generals (Rtas Vadum, who was never even mentioned in the series yet, why? I’ll explain later why this is another issue) and we like them too.
So the readers are not going to agree with a plan by Parangosky to not only undermine loved characters (like Thel and Rtas Vadum) but to also undermine respected characters like Admiral Hood, who Parangosky refers to as nothing more as a slight annoyance. Really?

First of all… Where the heck was Parangosky during the Human-Covenant war? I know doing some behind the scenes stuff that didn’t really matter while Hood was the players Admiral in the games. So how does Travvis get off acting like Hood is a shill that Parangosky can manipulate at will?

So this plan, that defies all the characters we’ve come to know and love from the games… break
Why is Travvis so in love with her own characters? They aren’t good! I have read 2 books with them and so far the only difference I can remember between Mal and Vaz is that Vaz is Russian and likes hockey. Other than that they are interchangeable, plug and chug characters. The rest are mediocre. Parangosky makes a decent villain, but Travvis is trying to make her come off as a hero? Really? Why can’t she write more about characters we actually, you know, like?

Anyways continuing…
This awful plan is just one of a bunch of sins that parangosky and by transference, Travvis is trying to pass of as excusable (all while simultaneously trying to convince us, unconvincingly, that Halsey is the inexcusable one in this sci-fi universe…). Later on she…

  1. Contemplates Dr. Magnusson’s plan, to starve every elite to death, including beloved game characters and their allies, but only disagrees with it because it could poison food for humans who she plans to have one day take over the planet

  2. Contemplates killing a civilian contractor (Dr. Magnusson) for a mistake (Jul’s escape) when his security really should have been in the hands OF A SECURITY TEAM. Seriously why the hell was a Civillain DOCTOR in charge of the security of a half ton elite warrior? The only reason Parangosky didn’t kill her was too many witnesses, she will probably be executed later anyways.

  3. She is incessantly racist towards every elite. Okay, they were at war with her, but it really is plain old racism. It would be like Americans hating the Germans who had defected to America after World War 2… And this is not a civilian, she is the head of the only known intelligence agency.

  4. She authorized the Spartan 3 program… a far inferior and more reprehensible program than the Spartan 2s… never mentioned by Travvis who does not want to tarnish her characters persona

  5. The persistence to even out the odds goes too far. When the Arbiter only has control of 5 ships, you order your ship to secretly destroy 3? And from this you can see how it leaks through to Osman who she is already corrupting.

Osman…
So I said I didn’t like any of them. I meant it…
Osman seems okay… but she is getting less and less okay throughout this series.
She seems to disagree with some of Parangoskys methods, but she just goes along with it.
Osman did not find the starvation plan surprising at all.

-The worst offence imo, is when they were excavating Telcam from infront of Vadam. Osman ordered her team to gun down a legion of Arbiter loyal sangehlli, without a second thought. Those elites… thinking they were fighting for peace with humans… had their last sight as being humans betraying them. How is that just at all?

Mal and Vaz
I put them together because they are essentially the same.
They are cool enough… I mean, they seem unintelligent for seasoned war veterans but they do well enough.
The problem is the incessantly hate Halsey knowing very little about the program and its consequences and the reason it was started. I get it, Halsey is the bad mad scientist guys! Stop ramming it down our throats.
Additionally they seem to have very little personality
And they are… again… incessantly racist.

Naomi
Most boring Spartan in the series.
Really? A super soldier trained from age 6 is haunted by her daddy issues of the past? And she just happens to be quiet… even though the previous books have showed us that not all Spartans are quiet.
She has no personality other than the intimidated child… and she is supposed to be an amazingly trained soldier who is also incredibly smart.
She really doesn’t seem that smart. She defers her tactical decisions to Vaz and Mal constantly and seems to just be a plot device to do objectives the ODST couldn’t logically achieve.
Additionally… she is the most boring Spartan ever. She doesn’t do any awesome fights, no cool feats… she just fights like a normal soldier who runs fast. That’s all they ever say about her
“mal was amazed how fast she ran”
“Vaz looked at how quickly she sprinted down the hall”
blah blah blah

Dev
Dev is actually okay. No complaints so I guess I was wrong about hating everyone.

Phillips
Really not sure why he has to exist. Everything he does could have been done by an AI. He really isn’t all that interesting, why is he on the team? You easily could have given someone and AI translator. He isn’t so bad, he just really doesn’t need to exist.

Black Box
Most boring, cliché AI ever.
“Oh no, existential issues” (like every AI in Halo ever)
“Look at me I’m so smart and better than humans” (like every AI in Halo ever)
Yawn

Anyways, it isn’t too late for these characters to get better… but quite frankly in my mind only a couple things can fix it.

Osman needs to realize Parangoskys methods are wrong. They are wrong, and they have to be wrong for Halo fans sake. Parangoskys methods are spitting in the faces of characters we have come to love through the games and making us hate her at the same time.

A reasonable commander like Osman has to realize that this is not the way to do things for fans to have any hope of a future for the Halo universe that is worth fighting for.

Vaz and Mal need differentiation. Give them skills that define them, not transferrable equal skills. It makes them boring and interchangeable.

Naomi: Get her over her daddys issues. Its sad and all, she was kidnapped, but she helped save the galaxy. Her dad became a terrorist. Inevitably they will blame Halsey (because that’s what Travvis does) and act like the Halo Government is spotless. If that makes her father cool off I will be done with the series. This story is ridiculous and forced. The chance that one father of a small number of kids becomes a terrorist leader because his daughter becomes strange and then dies is… unlikely at best and a joke at worst. Get this storyline over with and let Naomi become a character on her own rights and not based on her Daddy issues. She doesn’t need to be a quivering child because she knows she was kidnapped. She is an adult Spartan, let her act like one.

Phillips: Make him more necessary, that’s all I can say

Jul is a good villain. I didn’t comment on his story because I have nothing bad to say about it.
Although all of Raia’s story sections were unnecessary and only served to prolong the book.

Anyways what are your thoughts?

I quite enjoy Kilo-Five’s story. Naturally, I have to disagree with some of your points.

Mal and Vaz are quite different. Vaz is more serious and temperamental while Mal is the jokester and optimist of the duo. I love them both. Their hatred of Halsey is based on both rough details of the Spartan-II program and Osman basically making her sound like a mad/evil scientist. They were never told about the finer details and the necessity of the program, and they have no way of knowing about Halsey’s inner turmoil from her actions.

The Spartan-IIs ARE quiet, and Naomi is no exception. They interact well with each other, but among “outsiders” they are perceived as antisocial. But we see her warming up to Kilo-Five and forming a bond with Vaz. And why shouldn’t the revelation about her father burden her? He obviously loved her very much, and Naomi is probably reviving long repressed memories about him. The fact that he became a rebel over her loss would surely disturb anyone in the same situation.

Phillips is critical because personal interactions make people more trusting, and his sincere interest in the Sangheili makes him seem unthreatening. An AI wouldn’t have been invited to tour Sanghelios; Phillips was.

Parangosky is a witch, no doubt about that. However, I find the fact that she has the power to undermine Hood will become an interesting story element in the future. Stories are just as much about the amoral, callous dictators as they are about the goody-two-shoes.

Of course Osman is taking after Parangosky. She saved her life, molded her into a Halsey-hater like herself. She would naturally have a lot of influence over her. Osman seems less amoral, and she is capable of making her own decisions, but you can’t really blame her for liking Parangosky; she was the single most influential person in her life.

Plenty of smart AIs are cocky, including the beloved Cortana at times. They have the right to be. But they are cocky in a comedic kind of way. And BB has shown to let his human compatriots do some of the work that he could, out of respect and to not let them feel unneeded.

My main criticism with the story is that it doesn’t go to the point of view of more established and likable characters such as the Arbiter or the Spartans. Other than that though, I love it. I love the Kilo-Five team, Jul is a great antagonist, and the uncertainty of post-war Halo is magnificently crafted. Traviss did a great job.

By the way, there’s a fair chance that you’ll read about Parangosky’s death in the upcoming story, Mortal Dictata.

my problem with BB comes from the fact that he basically is Cortana 2. He is a cut and paste AI for those who have read the book series, AI’s always have the same worries and always have a superiority complex. In fact deja is the only one I can think of that was an interesting character (although cortana did break the mold in her evolutions short story)

As for Naomi
Spartan 2s are all natural leaders. They shouldn’t defer decisions to ODST. Additionally they aren’t all quiet, Kurt was the Loudest guy on Oynx.

your justifying phillips using logic from the book that doesn’t need to exist. The quest to save phillips lasted half the book (and boy was it boring) and really he didn’t even learn anything important from the temple. Jul (not a language expert) learned more than him on two separate planets without an ai to help him. Still as I said, Phillips is not so bad, he is a likable character but every scenario he is put in is a bit unnecessary and could be handled just as well if he wasn’t there, in my opinion.

And maybe you haven’t read many Travis books, but she has done this before (referring to your complaint). She is obsessed with her own creations. She will focus the story solely on the characters she creates and try to discredit every other character that has already been established. She did it in her gears of war books, characters of no importance all the sudden pop up in the books and are the most important characters.

As for Osman, you can be someones protégé and then realize they are wrong. Darth Vader was the Emperors protégé for years, eventually he realized the emperor was wrong, with the help of his son, and he destroyed his former mentor.

I didn’t read the Kilo-5 Trilogy yet so I can’t really provide much of a personal take on it, but I can say that from what I hear, that the books may have turned out a lot better if either

A) Traviss cuts the crap with her “go in cold” style writing. There is NO WAY that this -Yoink!- will pass for a major science-fiction series!

B) 343i hired an author who we know and love, such as Eric Nylund. I loved his work on the Fall of Reach, First Strike, and Ghosts of Onyx. Plus, Glasslands could have been considered a sequel to Ghosts of Onyx as the first entry into the trilogy. Why not have Eric Nylund write it? He wrote, he knows that story best. Plus, he never showed all of this “Anti-Halsey” BS. We just want a story that doesn’t push anyone who wants peace in to the background and show a neutral standpoint on people and events.

Or

C) If Traviss stops making the characters she makes the only ones of importance and discrediting the established characters as mentioned above in her Gears books.

> my problem with BB comes from the fact that he basically is Cortana 2. He is a cut and paste AI for those who have read the book series, AI’s always have the same worries and always have a superiority complex. In fact deja is the only one I can think of that was an interesting character (although cortana did break the mold in her evolutions short story)
>
> As for Naomi
> Spartan 2s are all natural leaders. They shouldn’t defer decisions to ODST. Additionally they aren’t all quiet, Kurt was the Loudest guy on Oynx.
>
> your justifying phillips using logic from the book that doesn’t need to exist. The quest to save phillips lasted half the book (and boy was it boring) and really he didn’t even learn anything important from the temple. Jul (not a language expert) learned more than him on two separate planets without an ai to help him. Still as I said, Phillips is not so bad, he is a likable character but every scenario he is put in is a bit unnecessary and could be handled just as well if he wasn’t there, in my opinion.
>
> And maybe you haven’t read many Travis books, but she has done this before (referring to your complaint). She is obsessed with her own creations. She will focus the story solely on the characters she creates and try to discredit every other character that has already been established. She did it in her gears of war books, characters of no importance all the sudden pop up in the books and are the most important characters.
>
>
> As for Osman, you can be someones protégé and then realize they are wrong. Darth Vader was the Emperors protégé for years, eventually he realized the emperor was wrong, with the help of his son, and he destroyed his former mentor.

Phillips learned from the temple the potential locations of the Halo rings. That’s pretty significant. He is very critical. Like I said, a personal touch makes you seem more trustworthy. It’s a very real psychological tactic.

As for Naomi, Spartans still have to follow the chain of command. Mal is a higher rank, so she answers to him. Most of the Spartan-IIs have been noted as sociopathic and antisocial. Kurt was simply a rare exception.

Parangosky was a mentor in addition to being a mother figure and friend. As I said, she would have significant influence over Osman.

BB stated himself that he is trying to be different from Cortana, but his interactions with the humans seem to imply that he will care just as much about them as Cortana cared about John.

Maybe Traviss does have a rather unorthodox writing style; I wouldn’t know, but I love her work on the Kilo-Five trilogy.

Vaz and Mal too similar? Ridiculous!

Vaz nearly killed Halsey and wants to see Sanghelios burn, every last man, woman and child.

Mal? He’s salvageable. He isn’t the one that starts those little Xenophobic chats between the ODSTs and when he joins in he only acknowledges the Sangheili as the enemy of war nothing else we haven’t seen from every other Marine before Kilo-5.

Mal has the potential to be a model Spartan IV. He’s a good leader and generally comes off as a nice guy to me.

But he has been involved in the unpleasantries of Kilo-5 so he needs work. He’s gotta kill Vaz, yep that’ll do it.

If he kills Vaz I’ll consider him officially redeemed. Heck I’d take him over Palmer any day.

I like Phillips, he’s interesting more than anything and has potential to create a lot of good plot lines.

Osman and Parangosky? I went into Kilo-5 believing ONI was an evil government organisation so I have no problem with them. I expected them to be bad guys and that’s what I got.

I agree the location of the halos is important but Phillips does not seem as important when Jul is able to pretty easily discover the location of the Didact with an engineer, it makes it seem like any human could have went down there with an engineer and discovered the same thing.
That said I do like Phillips as I’ve said before, I just want them to make him seem more special.

And Mega, basically everyone on this team, save Naomi who is not allowed to express her opinions on things other than her daddy concerns, and Phillips who seems like a genuine good guy (or a guy Parangosky would kill if he made a slight mistake) wants to see all the elites dead. Maybe to different degrees but I’ve read it from all of them… stuff like “then he thinks about how they attacked earth and realized they should MAC the arbiters fortress right now and end it all… Parangosky was wrong.” That was Mal, was it not?2 oh no, you are right, that was Vaz…
still Mal clearly does not have the attitude of a Phillips, I guess he is more middle ground.

I would like to hear Naomi’s opinion on this, but for some reason we aren’t allowed… Why hasn’t there been a section from Naomi’s perspective yet? Whenever she goes to do something we stay with the ODST or we are the ODST watching her, it’s a bit ridiculous.

As for the “Spartans tend to have sociopathic tendencies” that was just ONI scientists trying to belittle Dr. Halsey. Sociopaths would not have the commitment to chain of command that Spartans do, they would be acting in their own interests. If they are doing anything immoral that is the fault of the person in charge of commanding them.

At the same time, think of Master Chief.
He disobeyed Del Rio because of what he thought was right, that is, going after the Didact. So clearly Spartans will disobey orders if it means doing the right thing.
And don’t say he is an exception too. John-117 is the average Spartan
he may be the best Spartan but he also embodies the average Spartan and what a Spartan should be able to do think and feel.

> And Mega, basically everyone on this team, save Naomi who is not allowed to express her opinions on things other than her daddy concerns, and Phillips who seems like a genuine good guy (or a guy Parangosky would kill if he made a slight mistake) wants to see all the elites dead. Maybe to different degrees but I’ve read it from all of them… stuff like “then he thinks about how they attacked earth and realized they should MAC the arbiters fortress right now and end it all… Parangosky was wrong.” That was Mal, was it not?2 oh no, you are right, that was Vaz…
> still Mal clearly does not have the attitude of a Phillips, <mark>I guess he is more middle ground.</mark>

Which is exactly the kind of mentality we want. Particularity in SIVs.

I don’t really expect or even want SIVs to have Phillip’s mentality. They’re expected to fight the Sangheili on almost a daily basis and a mentality like that could cause problems.

Spartan Commander Malcolm Geffen. Think about it guys.

He isn’t exactly what we’d want but he’s redeemable more than anything.

All he has to do is kill Vaz and he can be the Sarge to my Simmons.

Double post.

> I agree the location of the halos is important but Phillips does not seem as important when Jul is able to pretty easily discover the location of the Didact with an engineer, it makes it seem like any human could have went down there with an engineer and discovered the same thing.
> That said I do like Phillips as I’ve said before, I just want them to make him seem more special.
>
> And Mega, basically everyone on this team, save Naomi who is not allowed to express her opinions on things other than her daddy concerns, and Phillips who seems like a genuine good guy (or a guy Parangosky would kill if he made a slight mistake) wants to see all the elites dead. Maybe to different degrees but I’ve read it from all of them… stuff like “then he thinks about how they attacked earth and realized they should MAC the arbiters fortress right now and end it all… Parangosky was wrong.” That was Mal, was it not?2 oh no, you are right, that was Vaz…
> still Mal clearly does not have the attitude of a Phillips, I guess he is more middle ground.
>
> I would like to hear Naomi’s opinion on this, but for some reason we aren’t allowed… Why hasn’t there been a section from Naomi’s perspective yet? Whenever she goes to do something we stay with the ODST or we are the ODST watching her, it’s a bit ridiculous.
>
> As for the “Spartans tend to have sociopathic tendencies” that was just ONI scientists trying to belittle Dr. Halsey. Sociopaths would not have the commitment to chain of command that Spartans do, they would be acting in their own interests. If they are doing anything immoral that is the fault of the person in charge of commanding them.
>
> At the same time, think of Master Chief.
> He disobeyed Del Rio because of what he thought was right, that is, going after the Didact. So clearly Spartans will disobey orders if it means doing the right thing.
> And don’t say he is an exception too. John-117 is the average Spartan
> he may be the best Spartan but he also embodies the average Spartan and what a Spartan should be able to do think and feel.

Dude, the Spartan-IIs ARE antisocial when dealing with people outside of their inner circle. They are strictly professional and don’t conversate well (with a few exceptions). They still have to follow the chain of command like any other soldier. Yes, John disobeyed an order for the greater good, and I’m sure any other Spartan would do the same. But they are still OBLIGATED and REQUIRED to obey orders from superiors.

I don’t know why you still don’t think that Phillips is important and “special”. He was able to translate the potential locations of the Halos with a half-functioning AI. His genuine interest in the Sangheili makes him seem nonthreatening. He was actually INVITED to Sanghelios, which would allow him to gather even more intel for Kilo-Five. He is very much needed. I don’t know how to convince you further.

> > And Mega, basically everyone on this team, save Naomi who is not allowed to express her opinions on things other than her daddy concerns, and Phillips who seems like a genuine good guy (or a guy Parangosky would kill if he made a slight mistake) wants to see all the elites dead. Maybe to different degrees but I’ve read it from all of them… stuff like “then he thinks about how they attacked earth and realized they should MAC the arbiters fortress right now and end it all… Parangosky was wrong.” That was Mal, was it not?2 oh no, you are right, that was Vaz…
> > still Mal clearly does not have the attitude of a Phillips, <mark>I guess he is more middle ground.</mark>
>
> Which is exactly the kind of mentality we want. Particularity in SIVs.
>
> I don’t really expect or even want SIVs to have Phillip’s mentality. They’re expected to fight the Sangheili on almost a daily basis and a mentality like that could cause problems.
>
> Spartan Commander Malcolm Geffen. Think about it guys.
>
> He isn’t exactly what we’d want but he’s redeemable more than anything.
>
> All he has to do is kill Vaz and he can be the Sarge to my Simmons.

Why is Vaz so bad to you? Yes, he almost killed Halsey, but that’s because Osman made her sound like a mad scientist with no morals. Had he known the truth about her inner turmoil and the necessity of the Spartan-II program, I’m sure he’d have kept his calm, or at least have a better understanding of her actions. Vaz seems to have a strong sense of justice. He has trouble seeing the world as anything other than black and white, while Mal seems to be more accepting of the gray areas.

And I hope you’re joking about Mal killing Vaz. That’d just never happen; their friendship is just too strong. Also, I’d doubt that Mal would join the IVs without Vaz.

> Why is Vaz so bad to you? Yes, he almost killed Halsey, but that’s because Osman made her sound like a mad scientist with no morals. Had he known the truth about her inner turmoil and the necessity of the Spartan-II program, I’m sure he’d have kept his calm, or at least have a better understanding of her actions. <mark>Vaz seems to have a strong sense of justice.</mark> He has trouble seeing the world as anything other than black and white, while Mal seems to be more accepting of the gray areas.
>
> And I hope you’re joking about Mal killing Vaz. That’d just never happen; their friendship is just too strong. Also, I’d doubt that Mal would join the IVs without Vaz.

Yeah, a sense of justice that includes the notion the Red Army stood for justice during WWII. I don’t see how Halsey rationalizing what she did to him is going to make a difference when he compares her to Josef Mengele, his mind is made up.

> > Why is Vaz so bad to you? Yes, he almost killed Halsey, but that’s because Osman made her sound like a mad scientist with no morals. Had he known the truth about her inner turmoil and the necessity of the Spartan-II program, I’m sure he’d have kept his calm, or at least have a better understanding of her actions. <mark>Vaz seems to have a strong sense of justice.</mark> He has trouble seeing the world as anything other than black and white, while Mal seems to be more accepting of the gray areas.
> >
> > And I hope you’re joking about Mal killing Vaz. That’d just never happen; their friendship is just too strong. Also, I’d doubt that Mal would join the IVs without Vaz.
>
> Yeah, a sense of justice that includes the notion the Red Army stood for justice during WWII. I don’t see how Halsey rationalizing what she did to him is going to make a difference when he compares her to Josef Mengele, his mind is made up.

His mind is made up because he wasn’t told everything. Like I said, Osman neglected to tell Kilo-Five about the necessity if the program, the fact that it was approved by Parangosky, and that Halsey carries a constant guilt about it.

> > > Why is Vaz so bad to you? Yes, he almost killed Halsey, but that’s because Osman made her sound like a mad scientist with no morals. Had he known the truth about her inner turmoil and the necessity of the Spartan-II program, I’m sure he’d have kept his calm, or at least have a better understanding of her actions. <mark>Vaz seems to have a strong sense of justice.</mark> He has trouble seeing the world as anything other than black and white, while Mal seems to be more accepting of the gray areas.
> > >
> > > And I hope you’re joking about Mal killing Vaz. That’d just never happen; their friendship is just too strong. Also, I’d doubt that Mal would join the IVs without Vaz.
> >
> > Yeah, a sense of justice that includes the notion the Red Army stood for justice during WWII. I don’t see how Halsey rationalizing what she did to him is going to make a difference when he compares her to Josef Mengele, his mind is made up.
>
> His mind is made up because he wasn’t told everything. Like I said, Osman neglected to tell Kilo-Five about the necessity if the program, the fact that it was approved by Parangosky, and that Halsey carries a constant guilt about it.

Do you honestly think someone breaking out -Yoink!- comparisons and feels so strongly about things like that is going to be moved by how “guilty” they feel? No. Vaz also mentioned that people from the top down responsible for the program should be punished, so even if he hasn’t connected the dots about Parangosky’s complciity, it wouldn’t effect his hatred of Halsey. As for the necessesity, pretty sure Mal asked him what the difference between an Innie shooting you is and how a Covie shooting you are and, shocker, Vaz still didn’t care.

Mal looks like he is the one trying to rationalize everything while Vaz thinks murdering your problems is what “justice” means.

> > > > Why is Vaz so bad to you? Yes, he almost killed Halsey, but that’s because Osman made her sound like a mad scientist with no morals. Had he known the truth about her inner turmoil and the necessity of the Spartan-II program, I’m sure he’d have kept his calm, or at least have a better understanding of her actions. <mark>Vaz seems to have a strong sense of justice.</mark> He has trouble seeing the world as anything other than black and white, while Mal seems to be more accepting of the gray areas.
> > > >
> > > > And I hope you’re joking about Mal killing Vaz. That’d just never happen; their friendship is just too strong. Also, I’d doubt that Mal would join the IVs without Vaz.
> > >
> > > Yeah, a sense of justice that includes the notion the Red Army stood for justice during WWII. I don’t see how Halsey rationalizing what she did to him is going to make a difference when he compares her to Josef Mengele, his mind is made up.
> >
> > His mind is made up because he wasn’t told everything. Like I said, Osman neglected to tell Kilo-Five about the necessity if the program, the fact that it was approved by Parangosky, and that Halsey carries a constant guilt about it.
>
> Do you honestly think someone breaking out -Yoink!- comparisons and feels so strongly about things like that is going to be moved by how “guilty” they feel? No. Vaz also mentioned that people from the top down responsible for the program should be punished, so even if he hasn’t connected the dots about Parangosky’s complciity, it wouldn’t effect his hatred of Halsey. As for the necessesity, pretty sure Mal asked him what the difference between an Innie shooting you is and how a Covie shooting you are and, shocker, Vaz still didn’t care.
>
> Mal looks like he is the one trying to rationalize everything while Vaz thinks murdering your problems is what “justice” means.

That’s not my argument. My argument is that Mal and Vaz weren’t told the whole truth about Halsey, so their opinion of her is unnecessarily biased. But yes, I do think that Vaz would have a change of heart if he knew the truth.

> > > > > Why is Vaz so bad to you? Yes, he almost killed Halsey, but that’s because Osman made her sound like a mad scientist with no morals. Had he known the truth about her inner turmoil and the necessity of the Spartan-II program, I’m sure he’d have kept his calm, or at least have a better understanding of her actions. <mark>Vaz seems to have a strong sense of justice.</mark> He has trouble seeing the world as anything other than black and white, while Mal seems to be more accepting of the gray areas.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I hope you’re joking about Mal killing Vaz. That’d just never happen; their friendship is just too strong. Also, I’d doubt that Mal would join the IVs without Vaz.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, a sense of justice that includes the notion the Red Army stood for justice during WWII. I don’t see how Halsey rationalizing what she did to him is going to make a difference when he compares her to Josef Mengele, his mind is made up.
> > >
> > > His mind is made up because he wasn’t told everything. Like I said, Osman neglected to tell Kilo-Five about the necessity if the program, the fact that it was approved by Parangosky, and that Halsey carries a constant guilt about it.
> >
> > Do you honestly think someone breaking out -Yoink!- comparisons and feels so strongly about things like that is going to be moved by how “guilty” they feel? No. Vaz also mentioned that people from the top down responsible for the program should be punished, so even if he hasn’t connected the dots about Parangosky’s complciity, it wouldn’t effect his hatred of Halsey. As for the necessesity, pretty sure Mal asked him what the difference between an Innie shooting you is and how a Covie shooting you are and, shocker, Vaz still didn’t care.
> >
> > Mal looks like he is the one trying to rationalize everything while Vaz thinks murdering your problems is what “justice” means.
>
> That’s not my argument. My argument is that Mal and Vaz weren’t told the whole truth about Halsey, so their opinion of her is unnecessarily biased. But yes, I do think that Vaz would have a change of heart if he knew the truth.

True but have they really tried too? That’s my problem with Vaz and Palmer the information they are given as seen as whole fact they dont go any further to see if the information they are given is the whole truth. To me they need to see everything before they pass judgement on people especially when the organization telling them this have questionable ethics as well.

> > > > > > Why is Vaz so bad to you? Yes, he almost killed Halsey, but that’s because Osman made her sound like a mad scientist with no morals. Had he known the truth about her inner turmoil and the necessity of the Spartan-II program, I’m sure he’d have kept his calm, or at least have a better understanding of her actions. <mark>Vaz seems to have a strong sense of justice.</mark> He has trouble seeing the world as anything other than black and white, while Mal seems to be more accepting of the gray areas.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I hope you’re joking about Mal killing Vaz. That’d just never happen; their friendship is just too strong. Also, I’d doubt that Mal would join the IVs without Vaz.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, a sense of justice that includes the notion the Red Army stood for justice during WWII. I don’t see how Halsey rationalizing what she did to him is going to make a difference when he compares her to Josef Mengele, his mind is made up.
> > > >
> > > > His mind is made up because he wasn’t told everything. Like I said, Osman neglected to tell Kilo-Five about the necessity if the program, the fact that it was approved by Parangosky, and that Halsey carries a constant guilt about it.
> > >
> > > Do you honestly think someone breaking out -Yoink!- comparisons and feels so strongly about things like that is going to be moved by how “guilty” they feel? No. Vaz also mentioned that people from the top down responsible for the program should be punished, so even if he hasn’t connected the dots about Parangosky’s complciity, it wouldn’t effect his hatred of Halsey. As for the necessesity, pretty sure Mal asked him what the difference between an Innie shooting you is and how a Covie shooting you are and, shocker, Vaz still didn’t care.
> > >
> > > Mal looks like he is the one trying to rationalize everything while Vaz thinks murdering your problems is what “justice” means.
> >
> > That’s not my argument. My argument is that Mal and Vaz weren’t told the whole truth about Halsey, so their opinion of her is unnecessarily biased. But yes, I do think that Vaz would have a change of heart if he knew the truth.
>
> True but have they really tried too? That’s my problem with Vaz and Palmer the information they are given as seen as whole fact they dont go any further to see if the information they are given is the whole truth. To me they need to see everything before they pass judgement on people especially when the organization telling them this have questionable ethics as well.

Why single out Vaz and Palmer? Everyone thinks that Halsey is a dangerous war criminal who enjoys abducting children in her spare time. And that’s because of Parangosky’s bias. Yes, we should try to learn more about someone before forming an opinion, but the sad truth is that most people don’t. Mal thinks badly of Halsey too, he’s just more calm about it.

in reference to a few posts ago, as someone who has studied psychology being slightly anti-social does not mean you are sociopathic.

And having “slight sociopathic tendencies” is not something bad, its something that any successful person could have.

sociopathology really just means you have trouble integrating into the society at large and violate social norms.
If I moved to Japan tomorrow I would likely be a sociopath as I would have a heck of a lot of trouble integrating into their society and would certainly violate many social norms.

Psychopathy is a completely different chestnut but I would not say Spartans have any more features of psychopathy (especially not anymore than say, someone like Vaz) so that officer singling out Spartans (instead of his general soldiers) was a little ridiculous

you don’t need to have anti-social personality disorder to do either.
And Spartans most certainly do not have anti-social personality disorder, nobody with ASPD would risk their lives or sacrifice themselves for the greater good or for a colleague.

The scientist interviewing Halsey was just grasping at straws and since Halsey likely has some knowledge of Psychology I’m sure she knows that which is why she wasn’t at all bothered.

> I finally finished the Thursday War (I know, it took forever, I hated the book, at least the first half)and after reading it I can’t help but wonder why Travvis seems so intent on making me hate absolutely everybody in the book…?
>
> I get that she writes from the perspectives of the characters, so obviously each character has their reasons for doing whatever they will be doing, but the cross contamination of opinions really makes me have a hard time liking anyone…
>
> Spoilers about Thursday War coming up…
>
> First of all, Parangosky is easily the worst character (I am referring to morality) in the book series. I will explain why later, but for now I can’t help but feel that Travvis is trying to make us like and support Parangosky… a futile attempt because she is clearly freaking crazy. I was so disappointed she didn’t die in the book (which I was confused about because Osman and not her shows up in Halo 4).
>
> Firstly the whole plan is ridiculous. I know we could argue the morality till the end of time but the fact of the matter is Parangosky is off her rocker here. And considering the reader (and likely, game players perspective) the Arbiter is a character that we like and respect because we have played as him and understand his path. We know some of his generals (Rtas Vadum, who was never even mentioned in the series yet, why? I’ll explain later why this is another issue) and we like them too.
> So the readers are not going to agree with a plan by Parangosky to not only undermine loved characters (like Thel and Rtas Vadum) but to also undermine respected characters like Admiral Hood, who Parangosky refers to as nothing more as a slight annoyance. Really?
>
> First of all… Where the heck was Parangosky during the Human-Covenant war? I know doing some behind the scenes stuff that didn’t really matter while Hood was the players Admiral in the games. So how does Travvis get off acting like Hood is a shill that Parangosky can manipulate at will?
>
> So this plan, that defies all the characters we’ve come to know and love from the games… break
> Why is Travvis so in love with her own characters? They aren’t good! I have read 2 books with them and so far the only difference I can remember between Mal and Vaz is that Vaz is Russian and likes hockey. Other than that they are interchangeable, plug and chug characters. The rest are mediocre. Parangosky makes a decent villain, but Travvis is trying to make her come off as a hero? Really? Why can’t she write more about characters we actually, you know, like?
>
> Anyways continuing…
> This awful plan is just one of a bunch of sins that parangosky and by transference, Travvis is trying to pass of as excusable (all while simultaneously trying to convince us, unconvincingly, that Halsey is the inexcusable one in this sci-fi universe…). Later on she…
>
> 1. Contemplates Dr. Magnusson’s plan, to starve every elite to death, including beloved game characters and their allies, but only disagrees with it because it could poison food for humans who she plans to have one day take over the planet
>
> 2. Contemplates killing a civilian contractor (Dr. Magnusson) for a mistake (Jul’s escape) when his security really should have been in the hands OF A SECURITY TEAM. Seriously why the hell was a Civillain DOCTOR in charge of the security of a half ton elite warrior? The only reason Parangosky didn’t kill her was too many witnesses, she will probably be executed later anyways.
>
> 3. She is incessantly racist towards every elite. Okay, they were at war with her, but it really is plain old racism. It would be like Americans hating the Germans who had defected to America after World War 2… And this is not a civilian, she is the head of the only known intelligence agency.
>
> 4. She authorized the Spartan 3 program… a far inferior and more reprehensible program than the Spartan 2s… never mentioned by Travvis who does not want to tarnish her characters persona
>
> 5. The persistence to even out the odds goes too far. When the Arbiter only has control of 5 ships, you order your ship to secretly destroy 3? And from this you can see how it leaks through to Osman who she is already corrupting.
>
> Osman…
> So I said I didn’t like any of them. I meant it…
> Osman seems okay… but she is getting less and less okay throughout this series.
> She seems to disagree with some of Parangoskys methods, but she just goes along with it.
> Osman did not find the starvation plan surprising at all.
>
> -The worst offence imo, is when they were excavating Telcam from infront of Vadam. Osman ordered her team to gun down a legion of Arbiter loyal sangehlli, without a second thought. Those elites… thinking they were fighting for peace with humans… had their last sight as being humans betraying them. How is that just at all?
>
> Mal and Vaz
> I put them together because they are essentially the same.
> They are cool enough… I mean, they seem unintelligent for seasoned war veterans but they do well enough.
> The problem is the incessantly hate Halsey knowing very little about the program and its consequences and the reason it was started. I get it, Halsey is the bad mad scientist guys! Stop ramming it down our throats.
> Additionally they seem to have very little personality
> And they are… again… incessantly racist.

I agree on most points, except two little things.
You forgot to write about Parangosky that is in point of death and is becoming afraid of God (or of hell), which makes her read Dante and try to justify the things she did in her life. It’s a strange behavior for the -Yoink- killer we knew from the books before, if i were her i would just say i had to do difficult choices but at the end saved humanity.
It’s ridicolous to hear her saying things like that her only moral implication with S-II was not controlling Halsey enough, when we (and she) know that she approved the program and Halsey was supervised very strictly and they made pressures on her to use even more unmoral methods. She wants to clear her conscience deceiving herself and giving biscuits.

Another thing is that i don’t agree with you about the racism against elites. You (in these forums) are hypocrites if you think that a woman that saw these -Yoinks!- killing all civilians, planet after planet, should not be racist and should instead forgive. It’s not germany and USA, that was a common war (we can say, army vs army), covenant made a genocide, one that involved billions and billions of civil humans, hundreds of planets.
Now they feell bad about it? NO. Only very very very few of the elites do (these use the prophets as scapegoats), the big majority still wants to kill every single human, and they all hate us. Arbiter only thinks some of us are valorous.
Don’t you get the pain of so many years of war, deaths, glassings, destruction? A bit of empathy please!

If it wasn’t that I am convinced that the significate of the Mantle is cooperation between different species, and that only this can save us from the curse that Precursors threw against our galaxy, I would 100% agree with killing all the -Yoinks!- on sanghelios, and i wouldn’t make so much problems if with civil war or bioweapons or just by sending the arbiter a NOVA bomb as Christmas present.