Those are the weapons I was thinking about when thinking about a buff along with the shotgun. I’d like to see how the sandbox would work if these weapons were not useless. After all the weapons reach the “usable” threshold. Then we can look at other weapons and how they should be tuned up or tuned down.
Yes! Yes! Yes! (I know you did not ask me, but still)
Sure. Why not? It always has.
But the Bulldog shouldn’t because it wasn’t designed for that. If it could, you’d have to adjust its RoF down and the fact that it’s drum fed would still make it way more powerful than the old one.
They’re different weapons. Unfortunately, with the sword and hammer, one of them doesn’t really need to exist. Hence the Bulldog. A good weapon but not a strictly better sword. (and the old shotty WAS strictly better.)
Bulldog is good enough that you could honestly knock its RoF down to make it more balanced. Like… It’s really good. I don’t think most here really get how good it is.
Bulldog’s a real monster if you can use it right - and you can, it just takes practice. It’s just not the boomstick its predecessor was but it has like, three times the range. A tradeoff I’ll take ANY day of the week.
It IS fine to have a “Standard” AND “Super” shotgun. DOOM proves that, with both having their own specific uses that the other just cannot do. The Combat Shotgun can’t bangblast everything the way the SSG can, but the SSG doesn’t have half the range or combat utility the Combat Shotgun has. Shoot, in DOOM Eternal, it doesn’t even have a swappable mod set like the Combat Shotgun does.
Both are great tools.
and frankly, 1v1, the bulldog would beat MOST of the classic shotguns, since it can engage at longer range and earlier. At point blank, obviously, it can’t.
But again, that does just make it a better sword.
If it does, the range needs to be massively reduced which makes the gun worse overall. You don’t need to one shot at close range. Having a more versatile gun is better most of the time. If you have super niche weapons, you get a game more akin to halo 3 where the correct way to play is to have your BR in basically every situation.
But if you allow weapons to be more flexible in their use, you aren’t punished with death by encountering someone further than 3 feet away from you
Well that’s how the original shotgun functioned. And a shotgun being drum feed doesn’t mean it would more powerful, it just makes it have a larger clip. The original shotgun is strong and can one shot at close range because of gameplay balance and lore. You need a powerful close range power weapon and the shotgun in lore uses military grade 6 gauge elephant shot. Which is why they continued to use an old pump action shotgun. It was designed to handle those rounds. Both lore and game balance matter.
I never mentioned anything about drum/mag size. It generally doesn’t matter much in regards to gameplay. What DOES matter is how useful it is in different situations. Which is why the old shotguns are usually bad. The original trilogy of shotguns aren’t good at all because they have bad range and lack of sprint, and the later 4 of reach, 4 h2a and 5 are too strong because up close they melt AND have good range. (H2A is a weird exception with why it’s strong, because it has a specific glitch to make it fire faster)
And I’m sorry to say, but no. Lore doesn’t matter at all when informing game decisions. You make the best changes for gameplay.
If 343 prioritized lore at all over gameplay quality, they’re a terrible developer. You make the multiplayer balance good, then justify it however you want.
i’m not saying lore should be prioritized. it just maters that a gun not be totally useless when it should be an amazing CQC weapon. as for the drum mag thing that was for KC.
The bulldog isn’t useless or even bad up close. The bulldog is stronger by far than any of the trilogy shotguns that could 1 tap.
And it’s better balanced than the later ones. It doesn’t need changes.
Gravity Hammer, Sword and Bulldog are all one taps that require less skill than the Mangler. BR is a 2 shot beatdown that ISNT getting a melee nerf despite all other weapons getting the melee nerf. Catering to pros and making it harder for casuals WILL eliminate the broader audience long term.
The BR IS getting a melee nerf in casual, which is the only place where the gravity hammer exists.
343 isn’t catering to the pros with the mangler nerf. It’s ALSO way too strong for casual play.
i wasn’t talking about the bulldog, i was talking about the mangler.
Mangler isn’t going to be useless up close either? Its a pistol, on a pistol’s spawn cycle. It can’t be stronger than most weapons in the game lol. Its not complicated
You simply don’t understand because you have a different mindset than I do.
Technically, it’s a slug shotty version of the mauler.
The mangler should be on the same tier of power as the disruptor, sidekick, and plasma pistol.
It outperforms every single one of these guns, in almost every situation.
It needed to be nerfed. Get a grip.
It’s not the same weapon as those and of course it’ll out perform any of them. Two of the 3 are almost useless in combat. I have never viewed the Mangler as being on the same level as the sidekick or Disruptor. It’s bigger, beefier and is an off the rack pick up meaning it functions differently than the sidekick and should be stronger.
I’ve played this game since the beginning, Halo CE.
You don’t need to be a “pro” to understand the sandbox.
I don’t see the Mangler being OP. I used to think it was garbage until I learn’t how to use it. It’s a great weapon in the right hands.
It does not need a nerf, which is the point of the melee reduction. I’ve never played a ranked game where everyone is running around with Manglers and dominating. They’re just upset the few times they get killed by it, because in the right hands it can counter their other “special weapons” that they all pull their ding -Yoink!- over.
If it is that big of a problem, which I don’t think it is, they just need to make it a tier 2 weapon, reduce ammo if needed etc, but it’s damage output is not an issue, and there is no need for a melee reduction.
Sidekick, disruptor and plasma pistol are all solid. They’re just not braindead in their use and strength.
@zetren, at any half decent skill level the mangler is not used BECAUSE of how strong it is. Anyone can use it, it isn’t hard.
And it doesn’t work as a tier 2 weapon because only one side gets it in 2/3 maps. They would have to change the weapon pads to make it balanced.
The Sidekick is solid, I’ll agree with that and the Disruptor is ok. I’d like to see the Disruptor have a slight buff so that it kills in one less shot. By which I mean for it to start to shock and then kill after that shot. The Plasma Pistol is not solid at all. It’s so soft-boiled it hurts. It doesn’t do enough damage per shot to strip shields quickly to out do the over charge, but the over charge has such bad tracking that it’s only good at super close range. Since the emp ability of the Plasma Pistol has been given to the shock weapons it feels like the PP doesn’t serve much purpose when the Pulse Carbine strips shields the fastest. If they leave the single shot as is, but increase the over charge tracking some then it will be “solid”…ish.
Which is why people keep telling them to fix the weapon pads/racks. It’s not very good right now.
I’m actually ok with a Mangler (melee) nerf and here is why:
The Plasma Pistol is essentially useless right now because the Mangler is a better shot + melee combo, the Disruptor has taken the EMP effect, and the Pulse Carbine is a better option for stripping shields at long range. Nerfing the Mangler melee combo will restore the Plasma Pistol’s functionality as a close range melee option while keeping the one shot one melee kills reserved for the tier 2 shotguns. The Plasma Pistol is a balanced tier 1 option for the one shot one melee combo because the shot must be charged and the charged sound can be heard which is a warning to enemies, which means it is much more balanced than the Mangler.
That said, the Mangler is about to become useless. It is a 3 shot kill if you hit your headshot, but with how challenging it is to hit with the slower projectiles you are more likely to miss and die at the hands of an AR or Sidekick. I think they should slightly boost the projectile speed of the Mangler which would makes it a little easier to use. The Mangler would then become a “Magnum” type weapon which would be more rewarding for skilled players that can hit their headshots.
I agree with everything you’re saying about the PP. I still don’t think the Mangler needs a nerf. I think it needs to be moved to a tier 2 and the PP needs a slight buff to help fulfill its role as a shield remover.
Like you said this will just make the Mangler useless. It will be relegated to only being used to prime people for headshots which is what the PP and PC are for.
The Mangler is a strong revolver shotgun pistol that fires slug rounds. It should be strong at close range and has the blades to boot which means it should do extra melee. People lump it in with the other pistol weapons and say that it’s to strong or is to frequently available. Like I said, just make it a tier 2 and fix the weapons spawns.
And allow me to posit this. If they add the original Magnum with it’s rapid fire and power would they not add it in as an off the rack tier 2 weapon? It’s definitely not a tier 1 in it’s classic state. If it’s balanced to be like the Magnum in Reach then that might be okay.