DMRs and Boltshots shouldn't be in loadouts.

Due to a shortage of characters in the subject box, the actual name of the topic is "Why the DMR and Boltshot shouldn’t be in loadouts.

No, it’s not one of THOSE topics. Instead of bashing the weapons completely and advocating the removal of these guns, I will voice my opinion on why they shouldn’t be loadout weapons, but are completely fine in MP.

The Boltshot

If you didn’t know already, the Boltshot is a pistol/shotgun hybrid which is possibly the most used secondary weapon in the game. Many players favor the weapon for its shotgun function, as it tends to give them an edge in close quarters when equipped with a precision weapon. The troubling aspect of this function, however, is that its range surpasses that of even some shotguns in the game. For the most part, the Boltshot can outdo most close-quarters weapons (even some power weapons) in battle. At some point, every Halo 4 player has lost a close-quarters battle to a Boltshot, which often leads to some frustration. Another detriment this situation poses is that instead encouraging more aggression in close quarters, players will be able to safely pick off enemies from a distance with a precision weapon. If one of them attempts to seek out the person or people staying back, that player will ultimately be defeated by the Boltshot.

This thread is starting to sound an awful lot like a rant, but hear me out.

The above paragraph describes its capabilities, and so far it seems quite ridiculous that such a weapon is available to a player once they spawn. The Boltshot, then, shouldn’t be a loadout weapon, but would make a suitable ordinance weapon. Such an idea makes sense, as it is more fair for everyone in a game if only a few people had access to a Boltshot through ordinance drops, than everyone having one. Although the solution sounds a bit unfair in itself, less confrontations would end in a player killing the other because they had a weapon that is far superior in close quarters than most others. Restricting the gun to ordinance only allows the gun to be kept for as long as the player lives, instead of having a newly filled Boltshot every respawn. An example of this idea in action can be seen with the Mauler in Halo 3. Although underrated, the Mauler was also a handheld shotgun with great capabilities, and instead was a weapon that was picked up off the ground. In conclusion, it would be satisfactory to many Halo 4 players if such a change was made.

The DMR

The DMR is a long-to-mid range precision weapon which is also very popular among Halo 4 players. The community has also had primarily negative feedback about this gun as well. Before I address this weapon, I would like to make a claim:

Let’s face it, the Halo series has focused more on short-range combat rather than long-range.

Innovation is key in making a new game, and it won’t always be accepted by everyone. However, the placement of the DMR in loadouts alongside the other precision weapons was another mistake. Yes, I understand we won’t be able to win all battles from long range when pitted against the DMR, but the inclusion of a long-range weapon available from the start in a game that has been primarily about close-range engagements is quite a big change, and one that is rendering most other loadout weapons obsolete in some confrontations. Most of the other precision rifles don’t have the long-to-mid range capabilities of the DMR. So, naturally, players will drift toward the weapon they believe will yield more success. The Battle Rifle and Covenant Carbine do not have much capabilities outside of mid-range, and the LightRifle can only do so much at long range, but still cannot match the DMR in a battle. As so, playlists with large maps such as Big Team Slayer have many, if not all, players utilizing the DMR. As a result, if you expect to do well in a Big Team Slayer match, you would want to include a DMR in your loadout, because it will defeat all other rifles at these maps with long lines of sight. It may not seem so bad if everyone used a DMR, but the reason so many people, including myself, detest the rifle is because it discourages variety. Most players won’t want to use another rifle that will not promise as much success as the DMR. Some players, as well as I, love to use other weapons, and at times will have great success in some games. But unfortunately, we will always encounter those who have adapted to use the DMR, and take advantage of the sight lines they have over us.

Some could argue:
“Just get up close to the player with a DMR and you can overpower them.”
The approach is possibly the most difficult aspect of killing an enemy, which is especially difficult if the enemy is peppering you with DMR shots, or if the person awaits you with a Boltshot once you have reached them.

“Adapt to the game.”
Adapting to the game is quite difficult when there is potential for variety in this game. I, along with so many others, don’t want to perform poorly simply because we decide to vary in our weapons.

As such, the DMR would also be fair as an ordinance weapon.
With such range and accuracy, it would fill this niche better and would be welcomed by the community. For the same reason the Boltshot should be a power weapon, it is more fair for only a few to have access to the DMR, than be dominated by a team whose members are all using it. Also, the sniper rifle is another long range rifle that is only available from ordinance, and it fits in the game well, just as it always has.

If you’ve made it this far, I appreciate the fact you took the time to read and understand my point of view. I will admit that I dislike both of the weapons discussed, and as such some bias may be present. My intention was not to discourage the use of the weapons nor to pointlessly complain about 343’s decision to include them.

Feel free to comment and add insight into this idea.

If the Bolt Shot was in ordinance, no one would use it. Even if all three options are terrible, because of its low ammo count and charge time it would never be called in. If you increased the ammo count and removed the charge time then you just have a Scattershot.

The DMR is overpowered on big open maps which previous games didn’t see because they were BR focused. The DMR is not the problem, the maps are. Maps need to have more cover and more tunnels to run through and use short to mid range weapons. If the maps were made correctly the red cursor LOS would not be half the map like Ragnarok but maybe the distance from your base to where the Gravity Cannon ends.

Thanks for the post!
I don’t think anyone has already said this before!

A lot of the problems with the DMR could be solved with flinch being removed and going back to being knocked out of ADS upon being hit. It would largely decrease its dominance on large maps.

Honestly though…this community was clamoring for more options in starting weapons and now that its there we have a problem. It is a simple fact seen in shooters, racing games, sports games, MMOs… There is ALWAYS a most valuable option. In H4 its the DMR.

I don’t understand why everyone wanted all this differentiation between starting weapons… All it really is, is the illusion of choice. The more options you have the more one is likely to be deemed to OP.

Stick, meet dead horse…again…

Honestly, I appreciate more input on this issue but I don’t think the OP touched on everything they should or could have.

Yes, both these weapons would largely be sorted if they were ordnance drops.

Remove flinch, increase the bloom and slightly lower the fire rate of the DMR and it would be fine.

To over charge with the bolt shot, you must have a full mag, Lower the range of the BS, Longer overheat after overcharge and decrease it’s damage so it is not a 1-hit kill.

If those two weapons were in ordnance then why pick them? Why would I pick a DMR over a Over-shield or a Scatter shot.

The DMR is my biggest grip in the sandbox(other then map balance). To me it seems to have no weak area of engagement. It’s supposed to be a long range weapon but can easily beat any short range weapon in their area of engagement .

I would suggest a RoF decrease as well as an extra shot to kill. The extra shot to kill is to balance it with the BR. As we all know the BR in halo 4 has a bullet spread and not all bullets hit during an engagement leading to more shots needing to be fired. Where the DMR is one bullet.

I won’t get into the hitscan /bullet magnetism argument as I feel this “could” fix the problem without havering to change the code done for bullets.

Largely agreeing with the OP’s views on the matter.

The prevalence of certain weapons being godly has always been a problem that has plagued Loadout shooters since the dawn of time, because who would deprive themselves of the chance to be better? However, I honestly don’t believe the current situation is not salvageable.

The biggest problem, as the OP points out, is that the current balance deprives VARIETY. I use a Carbine, I like the way it works and it plays at the ranges I like to be at. It frustrates me that a DMR user can walk into a Carbines optimal range and roflstomp the Carbine user with flinch. Except it isn’t one DMR user on the map, they ALL have DMR’s.

So, effectively, the Carbine is now useless. Although BR’s have spread and recoil, this is kinda the grounding issue with BR users aswell, that the DMR out-performs their weapon of choice outside of its ideal range. Lightrifles should, technically, beat the DMR at range duels but don’t due to OP range assist and ridiculous magnetism.

So, simply, tune it. It doesn’t need removing, or hitting so heavily with the nerf bat that it fires custard, just those values tweaking. Reduce Aim-assist ranges and magnetism, and a rate of fire nerf. Skilled with a DMR? Want to shoot across the map? Thats fine, thats what it was made to do. If you can get 5 headshots on me from across Longbow you deserve that kill. Just dont expect to beat me in close-med range with a Carbine, and certainly not in close range with an Assault Rifle.

As a Carbine user, I feel I should only fear the following situations, which I should lose 90% of the time against skilled players:

  1. Trying to outshoot a DMR/LR user at long range
  2. Trying to duel a BR/LR user at mid-long range
  3. Trying to stop the Assault user steamrolling me in my face

Med-Close range? You’re in my territory now.

As for the Boltshot… noone would choose it as ordinance, it isnt strong enough. But I agree that people hiding round corners with it isn’t just irritating, its game-breaking for assault users. Reduce clipsize, total ammo count and increase cooldown time after firing charged shot. Reduce range so its practically melee. This stops people double derpshotting skilled users.

Boltshot me once, shame on me. Boltshot me twice… I’ll hunt you for the remainder of the game.

> I won’t get into the hitscan /bullet magnetism argument as I feel this “could” fix the problem without havering to change the code done for bullets.

Ya please dont get into it. Cause you would be another player whose takes their opinion and dillusional ideas and forms a Statement like “dmr and boltshot is OP”.

I say opinion cause its not a fact, you cant speak for all the players. THe other precison weapons are MUCH harder to use but I have ALOT more fun using them now I understand how to utilize them properly. I have pleanty of video, or stats to show I can use a LR/pistol against any players on any level.

And also I say dellusional ideas cause you were about to talk about hitscan/bullet magnetism. WHich isnt a big of an issue as once thought cause all the precision weapons have the SAME bullet magnetism except the carbine, and ALL are Hitscan. Previosuly people thought just the DMR was hitsacn.

http://www.halocouncil.com/community/index.php?/topic/12399-r-the-halo-utility-weapon-thread-by-duji-and-k2five/

Honestly, you are better off using a BR on the smaller maps.

There are only 2 downsides of the BR vs the DMR on small maps: 1) 2 less shots in the clip, and 2) less aim-assist range (less important on small maps but to be fair is existent). On a larger map you have the spread that makes the BR not so effective, but that is why I suggest using the BR on small maps.

What you gain: the ability to 4 shot where the DMR would be a 5 shot.

Did you throw a grenade and just scrape their shields? 4 shot BR kill, 5 shot DMR. DMR shots not bleeding through shields is such a big deal that it is absolutely fascinating how often it is ignored.

The rumor of a DMR killing faster is sham.

Boltshot is just a more skilled version of throwing a plasma grenade. There are currently 3 ways to be threatening (through loadout weapons) in very close quarters: 1) boltshot, 2) plasma grenade, 3) plasma pistol + melee. Boltshot takes the most skill and has little utility outside of its niche. The other options take little skill and have lots of utility. People get upset about the boltshot because it is new… there are more infuriating things out there.

> The DMR is my biggest grip in the sandbox(other then map balance). To me it seems to have no weak area of engagement. It’s supposed to be a long range weapon but can easily beat any short range weapon in their area of engagement .
>
> I would suggest a RoF decrease as well as an extra shot to kill. The extra shot to kill is to balance it with the BR. As we all know the BR in halo 4 has a bullet spread and not all bullets hit during an engagement leading to more shots needing to be fired. Where the DMR is one bullet.
>
> I won’t get into the hitscan /bullet magnetism argument as I feel this “could” fix the problem without havering to change the code done for bullets.

I agree. The bullet magnetism is just so off that you can see yourself die from a boltshot or DMR while you’re way out of the other person’s range sometimes…but yes, that fix is would fix all this. To be honest, this is one of my only complaints about the game.

> > The DMR is my biggest grip in the sandbox(other then map balance). To me it seems to have no weak area of engagement. It’s supposed to be a long range weapon but can easily beat any short range weapon in their area of engagement .
> >
> > I would suggest a RoF decrease as well as an extra shot to kill. The extra shot to kill is to balance it with the BR. As we all know the BR in halo 4 has a bullet spread and not all bullets hit during an engagement leading to more shots needing to be fired. Where the DMR is one bullet.
> >
> > I won’t get into the hitscan /bullet magnetism argument as I feel this “could” fix the problem without havering to change the code done for bullets.
>
> I agree. The bullet magnetism is just so off that you can see yourself die from a boltshot or DMR while you’re way out of the other person’s range sometimes…but yes, that fix is would fix all this. To be honest, this is one of my only complaints about the game.

I never feel any form of “simpathy” for people who obviously are getttin owned, then they make such GRAND statements like a weapons is unbalanced when they dont even understand all the mechanics.

I dont really care about bullet magnetism and have never noticed it. Its EQUAL in all precisions except the carbine, which shows you that people are simply delusional and need to stop making stuff up and concentrate on getting better.

> Honestly, you are better off using a BR on the smaller maps.
>
> There are only 2 downsides of the BR vs the DMR on small maps: 1) 2 less shots in the clip, and 2) less aim-assist range (less important on small maps but to be fair is existent). On a larger map you have the spread that makes the BR not so effective, but that is why I suggest using the BR on small maps.
>
> What you gain: the ability to 4 shot where the DMR would be a 5 shot.
>
> Did you throw a grenade and just scrape their shields? 4 shot BR kill, 5 shot DMR. DMR shots not bleeding through shields is such a big deal that it is absolutely fascinating how often it is ignored.
>
> The rumor of a DMR killing faster is sham.
>
> Boltshot is just a more skilled version of throwing a plasma grenade. There are currently 3 ways to be threatening (through loadout weapons) in very close quarters: 1) boltshot, 2) plasma grenade, 3) plasma pistol + melee. Boltshot takes the most skill and has little utility outside of its niche. The other options take little skill and have lots of utility. People get upset about the boltshot because it is new… there are more infuriating things out there.

The boltshot is a skilled version of plasma grenades? Wtf am I even reading? If you think the bolt shot takes skill I would stick to Minecraft or something. That game is probably more your pace.

> Honestly, you are better off using a BR on the smaller maps.
>
> There are only 2 downsides of the BR vs the DMR on small maps: 1) 2 less shots in the clip, and 2) less aim-assist range (less important on small maps but to be fair is existent). On a larger map you have the spread that makes the BR not so effective, but that is why I suggest using the BR on small maps.
>
> What you gain: the ability to 4 shot where the DMR would be a 5 shot.
>
> Did you throw a grenade and just scrape their shields? 4 shot BR kill, 5 shot DMR. DMR shots not bleeding through shields is such a big deal that it is absolutely fascinating how often it is ignored.
>
> The rumor of a DMR killing faster is sham.
>
> Boltshot is just a more skilled version of throwing a plasma grenade. There are currently 3 ways to be threatening (through loadout weapons) in very close quarters: 1) boltshot, 2) plasma grenade, 3) plasma pistol + melee. Boltshot takes the most skill and has little utility outside of its niche. The other options take little skill and have lots of utility. People get upset about the boltshot because it is new… there are more infuriating things out there.

Everything you said is spot on and is information people seem to forget.

I like to spam the pistol then switch to the BR for a killing head shot. WHY the BR? Cause it takes 4 bullets plus 1 BR to kill instead of the 5 plus 1 dmr head shot.

True with the PP too. 3 shots plus 1 BR/LR instead of 4 need for DMR to get the enemy into 1 shot headshot kill health level.

The boltshot is going to stay a loadout weapon and it’s going to keep its OSK function IF they even change it at all. They might make the charge take a whole clip, or reduce its range, but people waiting for it to be a ordinance are going to be really pissed when it doesn’t happen. The weapon skin, the commendation unlocks, and the general function of the gun would be completely useless. the same goes for the DMR. They are both going to stay loadout weapons and maybe get minor balancing tweaks to make the community shut up.

The DMR is the only thing that gets me mad sometimes, a little nerf and I think the game will be a whole lot better. I have no problem with the boltshot. You get into it’s range and you don’t have a counter thought out, you deserve to lay down.

Okay, I’ll bite Contract.

I can see your SR130, clearly have some skills and appreciate the other secondaries in available loadouts. Good for you. You use a BR, good for you. The bleed-through effect gives you a distinct advantage in certain conditions and the gun is well balanced and awesome.

Yet your favored weapon is a DMR according to waypoint… I cant check your detailed stats because im surfing through my XBOX.

In regards to your boltshot comments, how exactly do you pop 4 pistol rounds and 1 BR headshot into someone when they have just 1SK’d you from a distance of 2 yards as you were walking around a corner? and if they missed… they can do it again while running toward you before you could pull off that little combo.

You cannot deny that there are balance issues that need adressing here. And don’t reply with “Stop whining, be better, like me, trolololol” like I can see you have replied with in this, and other posts around the forums. Constructive arguments are the best ones.

The DMR is fine. The DMR isn’t the gun to kill to kill the fastest. Its primary function is to shoot at a distance (maximum over 90 m, minimal 30 m). Everyone that I encountered using a DMR uses distance as their best friend and either a well placed grenade, having some cover, using effective teamwork, and fighting in close quarters does the trick. I swap for an AR or a storm rifle in small maps or swap to a BR and still win.

However, I certainly agree that it should be much riskier to use the “pocket shotgun” by making one CQ shot take an entire clip, and increase its reload/ recharge time (or just take an entire clip to reload).

I like them in loadouts, but I’d like to see them adjusted so they aren’t so clearly the best guns in their slots.

I really think a .1 or .15 second decrease on the DMR’s ROF would go a long way. It would tame the weapon for close and medium range fighting, but it still would excel in long-range fighting, which is how it was meant to be designed. It still would offer the advantages of the most powerful scope, large clip and ammo reserve, and hit scan accuracy. A DMR ROF decrease would also mean the light rifle would be more viable to compete at long range, but the light rifle comes with its own weaknesses, such as being the worst precision weapon from the hip and not having hit scan functionality, affecting it’s performance over range.

The boltshot was simply a faulty design. I’d much prefer seeing the charge shot being a machine pistol equivalent instead of a shotgun. That said, buffing the damage of it’s single shot would make using it for mid range a bit more viable. Reducing the damage and range on its charge shot would help tame it there, too. It should never be a OSK. A charge shot should only ever drop shields at best, like the mauler in Halo 3.

Simple fixes. Variety maintained. Balance restored.

the dmr requires less skill to use than the ar, true fact there.