Ditch loadouts?

I am thinking that it may be better if loadouts are ditched in the next halo. In halo 3 guns that you would not start with like the carbine felt powerful and useful, but in halo 4 I feel like in the attempt to balance it as a starting weapon it lost its usability, perhaps this is just me but I think loadouts should be ditched in order to give each weapon more of an edge in intended roles rather than having them toned down so that they are balanced for use on each map at any time. Thoughts?

Pre-Set loadouts have their place in certain game modes such as Invasion. They can also be useful in making some custom games, so they should still be included.

For just your standard slayer and other competitive gametypes though I feel there is no need for them.

> Thoughts?

I doubt very much that Loadouts are going to get axed.

At best we’re going to preset or no loadouts in a few select gametypes/playlists.

And like I keep saying: The problem isn’t Loadouts but specific items. Specifically: Jetpack, Camo, the PP, and Stickies.

Add replacements for the PP and Stickies and move them and most of the AAs to map pickups and the problems are gone.

> > Thoughts?
>
> I doubt very much that Loadouts are going to get axed.
>
> At best we’re going to preset or no loadouts in a few select gametypes/playlists.
>
> And like I keep saying: The problem isn’t Loadouts but specific items. Specifically: Jetpack, Camo, the PP, and Stickies.
>
> Add replacements for the PP and Stickies and move them and most of the AAs to map pickups and the problems are gone.

Exactly. A real shame that the prevailing mentality to fixing broken things in H4 is to scrap them entirely.

I think the DMR for one should be made a map pickup, along with PP/Stickies. Something I am uncertain about is the future of perks. I certainly don’t like them and I’m not sure if they can be done correctly for a Halo game.

No.

Instead, ditch the causes of how they harm the game.

Vehicle Combat broken because everyone spawns with PP/PGs? Remove the PPs and PGs.

Scoped weaponry being too powerful due to flinch? Remove flinch, and bring back descope-when-shot mechanic.

CQB too claustrophobic due to BS? Remove BS.

A particular weapon is just so damn good that using the other weapon is actually a bad idea? Buff or Nerf aspects of the two guns.

Boom. About 90% of the issues associated with
Loadouts are gone. I’ll let you all decide on the 10% as those are a bit more touchy than the others listed above.

Loadout’s not the problem. The individual aspects are what causes the problem. Limit the list of weapons, fix broken mechanics and have a really good weapon balance at launch. I think this is something 343 is capable of when making the next game.

(Sorry of the post is weird. Typing this on a phone is kinda weird.)

> And like I keep saying: The problem isn’t Loadouts but specific items. Specifically: Jetpack, Camo, the PP, and Stickies.

Even if all “OP” options for loadouts were removed, custom loadouts would still break the game. The OP options just make the brokenness more clear.

Loadouts (i.e., Halo: Reach) should not be ditched. Custom loadouts, however, should definitely be trashed and never to be seen again in a Halo game.

> > And like I keep saying: The problem isn’t Loadouts but specific items. Specifically: Jetpack, Camo, the PP, and Stickies.
>
> Even if all “OP” options for loadouts were removed, custom loadouts would still break the game. The OP options just make the brokenness more clear.

Can you elaborate on how without “OP options”, Loadouts would continue to break the game?

On this forum there seems to be two extremes of thought, things either “break” the game or they don’t. The prevailing use of the term “gamebreaking” really brings me to question do people actually know how to use the word properly.

A player with an ar and a player with a BR see each other at the same time and begin firing at the same time. Who wins? Did that person win because they were more skilled or because their weapon was better suited for the situation? There isn’t enough information to tell.

That’s how load outs break the game. They make it so no useful information can be gathered from any encounter of load out weapons.

This is different if everyone spawns the same or if everyone has the same load out options. Only with preset load outs how do you balance the weapons. For range? That leads to rock paper scissors when skill is normalized. For optimal kill time? That leads to autos being better due to the smaller difference between average and optimal kill time. For average kill time? That causes weapons to have a inverse ratio between rate of fire and optimal kill time. The slower a weapon fires the greater the difference between average an optimal becomes, assuming all other characteristics constant.

All of those problems cease to exist when all players spawn with the same weapon.

Explanation of the problems load outs cause.

> A player with an ar and a player with a BR see each other at the same time and begin firing at the same time. Who wins? Did that person win because they were more skilled or because their weapon was better suited for the situation? There isn’t enough information to tell.

We don’t know. One gun is good at close range. The other is better at long ranges. How close were they? (10 meters? 30 meters? That makes a huge difference) How many shots did the BR guy landed before the AR guy fired back? Same going the other way.

Of course there isn’t enough information to tell. Your scenario is too vague to even come up with an answer.

> That’s how load outs break the game. They make it so no useful information can be gathered from any encounter if load out weapons.

That isn’t why loadouts break the game. Again, your vague scenario doesn’t help your argument against Loadouts. You need to have more detail. Even still, you are implying that every gun works the same as the other, which is never the case in any of the Halo games.

> This is different if everyone spawns the same or if everyone has the same load out options. Only with preset load outs how do you balance the weapons. For range? That leads to rock paper scissors when skill is normalized. For optimal kill time? That leads to autos being better due to the smaller difference between average and optimal kill time. For average kill time? That causes weapons to have a inverse ratio between rate of fire and optimal kill time. The slower a weapon fires the greater the difference between average an optimal becomes, assuming all other characteristics constant.

True. However, I do not see how this is an argument against loadouts. It just improves upon those that agree that if weapons are actually balanced, players will end up playing differently based on what they got.

If anything, Halo 2 and 3 always had the “Rock, Paper, Scissors” gameplay. Especially in Halo 3 where the BR was the dominate medium range gun, the shotgun ends up being the dominant close range gun and the Sniper ends up as the dominant long range gun in MLG tourneys.

> All of those problems cease to exist when all players spawn with the same weapon.
>
> Explanation of the problems load outs cause.

All of those problems cease to exist if there is only ONE gun in the game, and that is what 343, and anybody who actually wants to use anything other than a BR or DMR or whatever gun of the game is going to be, is trying to avoid.

That isn’t an explanation. Your scenario is vague, and your other paragraphs are based on that vague idea that ends up actually supporting how loadouts can exist if balanced properly.

Weapon a and weapon b are balanced so that from x-y range weapon a wins, from
Y-z range both weapons trade, and from farther than z distance weapon b wins. When skill is normalized, every encounter will play out that way. Player input ceases to matter, only weapon selection.
That loos exactly like rock paper scissors to me.

The sniper and the shotgun were on the map in contested positions or in an equal number per side. Either both teams have capability of having the same weapons or the team that has the power weapon killed the other team for it. In halo ce-3 all players had the same chance of obtaining the power weapon.

Try to secure rockets on the pit, with an AR, when an opponent of equal skill has a weapon with more range than yours.

Also which type of balance would you like between load out weapons? Range, optimal, or average kill time?

> Weapon a and weapon b are balanced so that from x-y range weapon a wins, from
> Y-z range both weapons trade, and from farther than z distance weapon b wins. When skill is normalized, <mark>every encounter will play out that way</mark>. Player input ceases to matter, only weapon selection.
> That loos exactly like rock paper scissors to me.
>
> The sniper and the shotgun were on the map in contested positions or in an equal number per side. Either both teams have capability of having the same weapons or the team that has the power weapon killed the other team for it. In halo ce-3 all players had the same chance of obtaining the power weapon.
>
> Try to secure rockets on the pit, with an AR, when an opponent of equal skill has a weapon with more range than yours.
>
> Also which type of balance would you like between load out weapons? Range, optimal, or average kill time?

Every encounter will play out that way? I guess you could say that if you ignore grenade throwing, teamwork, surprise attacks, and cover.

While it is true that loadouts are somewhat unbalanced, it’s not complete chance like rock paper scissors.

> Can you elaborate on how without “OP options”, Loadouts would continue to break the game?
>
> On this forum there seems to be two extremes of thought, things either “break” the game or they don’t. The prevailing use of the term “gamebreaking” really brings me to question do people actually know how to use the word properly.

In this forum, people way too often create new topics about subjects already being discussed in other topics. There are, what, four topics now about loadouts that have been active in the last three days? I’m not going to provide a detailed dissertation of every problem with everything in every one. Not unless someone gives me a reason to.

> While it is true that loadouts are somewhat unbalanced, it’s not complete chance like rock paper scissors.

Not always, but sometimes. In an encounter between two players who are both using ARs or both using BRs, there is no difference between them except skill, and therefore, we know that the most skilled will win.

When you equip them both with different weapons, we are now judging one player’s skill with a BR against the other’s skill with an AR. Which takes more skill to kill an opponent? There’s no way to tell; we are comparing apples and oranges.

It is also possible that a player could have won an engagement because he happened to choose the Rock loadout instead of the Scissors loadout, giving him an advantage in that situation that he may not have known he would need. To put it another way, a loadout is chosen before a player knows what types of situations he will encounter. When choosing a loadout, a player can only make an educated guess on what situations he will encounter and thus what he will need to use. Engagements can then come down to not only who made the better decisions during the engagement, but who made the better pre-spawn guess.

> Weapon a and weapon b are balanced so that from x-y range weapon a wins, from
> Y-z range both weapons trade, and from farther than z distance weapon b wins. When skill is normalized, every encounter will play out that way. Player input ceases to matter, only weapon selection.
> That loos exactly like rock paper scissors to me.

Ok…the problem with that is…what? That it boiled down to who knows their weapons, fired the first few shots and ultimately didn’t lose their aim? Which technically should have been happening anyway to avoid having a 1-gun game? You are also not considering the fact that not everyone will stand there or not use grenades.

> The sniper and the shotgun were on the map in contested positions or in an equal number per side. Either both teams have capability of having the same weapons or the team that has the power weapon killed the other team for it. In halo ce-3 all players had the same chance of obtaining the power weapon.

What’s that got to do with loadouts? That part hasn’t been changed(well, if you want be technical, returned due to random ordnance drop being a very crappy replacement).

If both players know where the weapon spawns, and how the teams normally flow, they’ll equip themselves appropriately for the situation and have a plan to deal with it.

> Try to secure rockets on the pit, with an AR, when an opponent of equal skill has a weapon with more range than yours.

Did it. Results in death because its the perfect situation for the precision weapon: A target going in a straight line with a weapon that can’t do jack past mid-range.

You know what else I done? Use the AR, a close-range gun, against a BR in a small room. Results in death to the BR because I played it out, and set the enemy up for an easy kill that is possible for an AR.

The game has depth. You will need to learn the gun’s strengths and weaknesses, and which places on the map they are good at if you want to use them effectively. We are moving away from the whole “Illusion of Choice” Halo 2, 3, Reach, and Halo 4 pre-weapon update provided that resulted in the whole, “Spam the head til ded!” or “Spam the chest than the head til ded” gameplay they ended up providing a huge chunk of the time.

> Also which type of balance would you like between load out weapons? Range, optimal, or average kill time?

All. Range is restricted to the weapon, that ultimately results in its optimal kill time, while the versatile weapon will have the average kill time due to it being the better option of what the other guns CAN’T do(Vs AR: Get in long range to kill it. Vs DMR: Get in close range to kill it).

Versatility doesn’t mean easy mode. It mean you need to take into consideration of your position and the enemy’s position in order to be effective. You are given a MT. You have teammates, audio cues, grenades, melee, and several more. If you want to wreck face with just one gun, that’s fine. But you need to learn the map, the gun and where you will need to be in order to do what you need to do to survive.

Even without loadouts, you will still run into multiple weapons and you will need to deal with them appropriately to survive. Sometimes, your chances are in your favor. Sometimes it’s 50-50. Other times you are just screwed. That is how the game works.

just keep it like reach u pic your armor ability and thats it

> > > Thoughts?
> >
> > I doubt very much that Loadouts are going to get axed.
> >
> > At best we’re going to preset or no loadouts in a few select gametypes/playlists.
> >
> > And like I keep saying: The problem isn’t Loadouts but specific items. Specifically: Jetpack, Camo, the PP, and Stickies.
> >
> > Add replacements for the PP and Stickies and move them and most of the AAs to map pickups and the problems are gone.
>
> Exactly. <mark>A real shame that the prevailing mentality to fixing broken things in H4 is to scrap them entirely.</mark>
>
> I think the DMR for one should be made a map pickup, along with PP/Stickies. Something I am uncertain about is the future of perks. <mark>I certainly don’t like them and I’m not sure if they can be done correctly for a Halo game.</mark>

This is a prime example of a broken thing that must be axed. The reason the mentality prevails is because you cannot fix most of these things past being a hindrance or annoying. Sprint being the main culprit of this circumstance, as well as perks or maybe even some AA’s.

Could you fix Armor Lock? Camo (without making it more stupid than it’s already become?) Nope. You cannot always fix what is broken.

> > Can you elaborate on how without “OP options”, Loadouts would continue to break the game?
> >
> > On this forum there seems to be two extremes of thought, things either “break” the game or they don’t. The prevailing use of the term “gamebreaking” really brings me to question do people actually know how to use the word properly.
>
> In this forum, people way too often create new topics about subjects already being discussed in other topics. There are, what, four topics now about loadouts that have been active in the last three days? I’m not going to provide a detailed dissertation of every problem with everything in every one. Not unless someone gives me a reason to.

In this forum people seem to talk as if they actually know what they are saying. If you find the amount of threads redundant why did you even comment on this?

Despite redundancy, you will gladly impart your disapproval yet withhold any explanation. Nice double standard.

Loadouts offer the player the chance to make decisions that allows them to play the game to their preferred play style. which isn’t a bad thing. where loadouts start to warp halo into something it is not is where a problem arises. the customization in halo 4 went way to far, and added to much randomness to every encounter.

AAs for one are heavily imbalanced, with some being to prominent. such as jetpack and active camo and PV just being borderline hacking. those three AAs overshadow the rest of AAs, making the choice of your loadouts AAs less of personal preference and more of a number crunching optimization, detracting from the choice all together. I believe the most supported solution to AAs is to make them map pick ups instead of a loadout option, which would reduce the frequency of running into the predominate three AAs and would cut back on the randomness over customization of loadouts bring to encounters.

The perks are the other half of the randomness problem, some of the perks were created from baseline traits everyone possessed in previous titles, which forced veteran players to feel like they had either been stripped of a ability or force to choose the perks that would allow them to play halo how’d they have been playing halo for years. others were directly contributing to the increased randomness like dexterity which allows players to recover faster from misplaced shots from weapons with longer reloads such as rockets or the shotgun which have a long reload time due to their lethality. some were also borderline hacking like survivor is. Overall perks as an option should be cut with the former baseline traits returning.

With both of those loadout options cut the randomness from Loadouts could be manageable with some tweaks, for one Primary Weapons options should be limited to the AR BR and their covenant counterparts, with the only tweaking being balancing the AR vs BR with equal kill times and similar accuracies at mid range, so the only factor in most encounters being who is more consistent with their preferred weapon. similarly secondary weapons should be limited to Magnums, SMGs, Plasma Pistols, and a covenant plasma SMG. grenades should be limited to frags and plasmas with grenades counts being limited to 1 to reduce grenade spam.

To ensure plasma pistols and plasma grenades don’t devastate vehicles the UNSC and Covenant should stop making them out of paper mache and make them out of whatever they were making out of in halo 3. with this condensing of loadout options the number of loadouts should also be reduced to one with the inclusion of being able to edit loadouts during games particularly in between spawns. I feel this would reinforce players to choose the weapons they prefer to use and make changes when the situation calls for it while reducing the random factors to a minimum.

> Loadouts offer the player the chance to make decisions that allows them to play the game to their preferred play style.

It has nothing to do with a specific play-style. Load-outs offers things that supports your weakness and will help you “solve” the game. You may very well define solving the game as doing everything correct. In high level game-play where people do things correct, attacks and counter-attacks are extremely similar in every situation.

I say Perks are far more harmful to Loadouts (and Halo) than AA’s.

x2if the next Halo learns to trim the AA feature set and give a generous nerf to some of the more problematic ones like JP or AC.