Discussion - SPARTAN and Immorality

Community Halo Universe
1

Probably the most commonly debated topic on these forums, and due to Karen Traviss’ lovely additions to the Halo franchise, it just comes up more and more. So here’s my take.

I think everyone can agree that the ethics of the SPARTAN programs have never been in doubt. It’s unethical as the gates of hell to abduct children, indoctrinate them, subject them to extreme military training, experiment on them, and then send them off to war for the vast majority of there lives… ‘Replacing’ them with imperfect flash clones also was never a good idea, good intentions or not.

Based on the ‘Carver Findings’, the project was done to prevent a massive civil war and a destabilization of humanity as a whole. Preventing open war that would have killed billions of people and a complete upheaval of human society as it was. The S-II’s mostly quelled that threat and allowed humanity to fight as a united species against a superior aggressor. If humanity was fractured into separate interests or knee deep in civil war, the end-result of the Human-Covenant war would have been certain extinction.

Despite the moral failures of the project(s), much scientific knowledge was gained from the programs. The members of all the ORION/SPARTAN programs were pivotal in humanities success in the war against the Covenant, insurrectionists, and later in the discovery of Forerunner technology and the events that followed. All things that were completely capable of wiping our species from the galaxy.

As for who’s to blame for all of it… The answer is ONI, the admirals, and those who agreed to work on the project knowing it’s true nature. The hard truth is that Doctor Halsey is no more to blame than the people who funded the projects or worked on it with her. By BB’s (Black Box) admission, she’s is a hate figure because high command & ONI don’t want to take the fall for the project that they supported themselves. Colonel Ackerson taking the fall for the S-III project obviously isn’t going to happen.

Doctor Halsey may be a twisted individual with a lack of morals, humanity, compassion (at one point or another), and a serious superiority complex; but you can’t argue the fact that the results of her “baby” project were pivotal in saving the human race from extinction. Many people on these forums (and elsewhere) think people are Haley apologists. To the educated fan of the series, that simply isn’t true. We all know the projects were wrong. That doesn’t make Dr. Halsey some sort of saint or make the projects OK. But it provides understanding and context to the decisions that were made.

When faced with the Carver findings, would you sacrifice a hundred people to save billions? Do you then sacrifice a few thousand more to stall a coalition of advanced alien races from obliterating your species? When faced with certain death or outright extinction, survival wins out. It is basic instinct on the most primal level across the animal kingdom. Humanity is no different in that regard. What’s more humane and ethically sound? Sacrificing the few, so that the many can live? Or letting billions die of there own choice?

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Well, given that humanity is still around to discuss these moral conundrums, I would have to say the Spartan-II and III Programs were necessary in the end. Another thing that rarely comes up though is the role of the Librarian and Assembly in all this. Obviously this isn’t to absolve any one of their respective blame, but it’s something to consider.

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> Well, given that humanity is still around to discuss these moral conundrums, I would have to say the Spartan-II and III Programs were necessary in the end. Another thing that rarely comes up though is the role of the Librarian and Assembly in all this. Obviously this isn’t to absolve any one of their respective blame, but it’s something to consider.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Nicely said, Cobra.

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The UNSC fleet’s already out numbered the innies 1000 to 1. Better tech, soldiers and so on. I fail to see the necessity of creating these picture-perfect soldiers in order to subdue the outer colonies, when they already had the military might to do so. Why did they need to use kidnapped children instead of consenting adults? For sake of time? Or just a lack of patience and/or restraint?

I’m also far to cynical to believe Halsey had only humanities best interest at heart, and wasn’t just working to persue her undying desire to acquire new knowledge and see her theories applied. The fact that she’s so remorseful and guilt stricken now only cements this belief.

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> Well, given that humanity is still around to discuss these moral conundrums, I would have to say the Spartan-II and III Programs were necessary in the end. Another thing that rarely comes up though is the role of the Librarian and Assembly in all this. Obviously this isn’t to absolve any one of their respective blame, but it’s something to consider.

I’ve been putting some thought into the Librarian’s involvement and have come to a few questions.

One of them being why start with adults when that was going to fail? Why would the geas produce human scientists that would create a doomed project? Sure the ORION project produced valuable information that would be used in the SIIs but if ORION were to of used children in the first place then that probably would’ve provided more information and by the time the SIIIs came around we probably would’ve been able to use adults.

The only answer that I can think of is that using children was all part of a programmed survival mechanism. When ORION was first started it wasn’t known that the Insurrection would lead to the collapse of the UNSC. At that time the geas would’ve been set so that humanity would take the slower yet moral route in creating Spartans. So as long humanity stays safe and is not under any huge threat the geas will have humanity take their time and develop the Spartan’s using adult volunteers, although I’d imagine that doing it this way they wouldn’t have semi perfect augmentations until the fifth or sixth generation.

But Halsey was a human that had a special geas ( there have probably been a few humans with a similar geas throughout history in case of an emergency). This geas will not be activated unless the person became aware that a huge threat to humanity was coming. Once this geas is activated the human will take control of the Spartan/ORION research and use children to speed up the process and use them as a means to end the threat. That threat being the civil war that would be caused by the Insurrection.

It’s possible that Ackerson had phase two of this emergency geas. With an even bigger threat looming (The Covenant). He then made his own Spartans that were large in numbers and designed to fight the new threat.

And once it became known that humanity was no longer in major danger the Spartans were put back on the moral course they’re on now due to the geas of the individuals involved in the SIVs.

So my geas theory in a nut shell:

Humanity will create Spartans the slow but moral way unless a threat shows up.
If a threat shows up use children to accelerate the program and stop it.
If a bigger threat shows up increase the number of Spartans and all that other stuff regarding the SIII’s differences to the SIIs.
Once there is no longer a threat go back to doing things the moral way.

Although I could just be overestimating the influence of humanity’s geas and thinking that everything that has ever happened is the direct result of a geas.

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> The UNSC fleet’s already out numbered the innies 1000 to 1. Better tech, soldiers and so on. I fail to see the necessity of creating these picture-perfect soldiers in order to subdue the outer colonies, when they already had the military might to do so. Why did they need to use kidnapped children instead of consenting adults? For sake of time? Or just a lack of patience and/or restraint?

The UNSC may have had better tech, but the numerous examples of guerrilla fighters posing a massive threat to a superior power show that might isn’t always enough. The Insurrection was able to blend in with the civilian population and strike at any point. As we saw with Mamore, the innies didn’t need a huge fleet to activate a nuke on a colony and kill millions. The Spartans are for surgical strikes rather than “Nuke Everything!” option that the UNSC did on Far Isle.

As for the use of children, that is easy. Their bodies are more malleable for the augmentations and are easy to indoctrinate. Otherwise, we get a lot of dead Spartans before they even make it out the door, as in ORION, and Spartans with insurrectionist sympathies, again in ORION and seemingly in the Spartan-IVs.

> I’m also far to cynical to believe Halsey had only humanities best interest at heart, and wasn’t just working to persue her undying desire to acquire new knowledge and see her theories applied.

Well, given how she signed onto the program only after the rebels nuked Mamore and was won over by the disastrous conclusions predicted in the Carver findings, I don’t see the whole “She only did it for knowledge” angle really working. I’ve never really understood this point of her being a scientist meaning that she only cared about knowledge. All scientists want to further knowledge, that isn’t a bad thing.

> The fact that she’s so remorseful and guilt stricken now only cements this belief.

She may feel remorse and guilt over what she did, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t think she did the right thing. Nor do I see how this confirms the notion she did it for only knowledge and that only.

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> Well, given that humanity is still around to discuss these moral conundrums, I would have to say the Spartan-II and III Programs were necessary in the end. Another thing that rarely comes up though is the role of the Librarian and Assembly in all this. Obviously this isn’t to absolve any one of their respective blame, but it’s something to consider.

My understanding of the whole Forerunner geas thing was that it implanted a unconscious urge, desire, or predisposition towards a certain thing. To me, all this means is that the geas would urge humanity toward physical augmentation, creating A.I.'s, and the development of assisted powered armor. Not necessarily dictating the methods used to reach that goal.

> The UNSC fleet’s already out numbered the innies 1000 to 1. Better tech, soldiers and so on. I fail to see the necessity of creating these picture-perfect soldiers in order to subdue the outer colonies, when they already had the military might to do so. Why did they need to use kidnapped children instead of consenting adults? For sake of time? Or just a lack of patience and/or restraint?

I already addressed this in the topic post and it’s addressed in TFoR. The UNSC did not want to have a full-scale war with the Insurrection and specifically wanted to avoid a massive loss of life & collateral damage. The UNSC already tried with consenting adults, the end result wasn’t ‘satisfactory’ and the members of the original ORION project were reintegrated into standard forces (I.E. Avery Johnson). The technology & scientific knowledge wasn’t there for the project to work on consenting adults, and based on the Carver Findings, they would run out of time before it would be. Thus, the SPARTAN-II project was approved.

> I’m also far to cynical to believe Halsey had only humanities best interest at heart, and wasn’t just working to pursue her undying desire to acquire new knowledge and see her theories applied. The fact that she’s so remorseful and guilt stricken now only cements this belief.

Based on her journal entries and continual sentiments regarding her SPARTAN’s and her contributions to the project throughout the series, it’s quite obviously both. Personal opinion is fine, but try not to be overly biased.

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> As for who’s to blame for all of it… The answer is ONI, the admirals, and those who agreed to work on the project knowing it’s true nature. The hard truth is that Doctor Halsey is no more to blame than the people who funded the projects or worked on it with her. By BB’s (Black Box) admission, she’s is a hate figure because high command & ONI don’t want to take the fall for the project that they supported themselves. Colonel Ackerson taking the fall for the S-III project obviously isn’t going to happen.

Well, the first chunk of this paragraph we’re in agreement on at least. Halsey isn’t the one to really throw the blame at for the Spartan IIs, it’s ONI and the rest of the select few who were in the know/authorized the program.

Where we’re going to have to disagree is the rest of this. The whole branding Halsey as a scape-goat by Parangosky and those higher up in the chain of command just letting her do it does not make any sense within the universe. The Spartan IIs are one, if not the most closely guarded secret in the UNSC, anyone who so much as thought about revealing any of the information about beyond the fact that the Spartan IIs exist and they’re super-soldiers, would be quietly tried and executed or locked away for the rest of their life for committing treason. It doesn’t matter who the UNSC or ONI would try to pin it on, revealing it at all would spark an Insurrection ten-thousand times worse than what the Spartans created to stop in the first place. This is something that is never going to come out intentionally or deliberately be revealed by anyone in ONI or the UNSC in the interest of self-preservation. Nothing would happen to Halsey, because nothing would ever be said about the Spartans in the first place. It’s never going to come out within the life-times of anyone who was in the know or approved funding/creation of the Spartan IIs.

> Doctor Halsey may be a twisted individual with a lack of morals, humanity, compassion (at one point or another), and a serious superiority complex; but you can’t argue the fact that the results of her “baby” project were pivotal in saving the human race from extinction. Many people on these forums (and elsewhere) think people are Haley apologists. To the educated fan of the series, that simply isn’t true. We all know the projects were wrong. That doesn’t make Dr. Halsey some sort of saint or make the projects OK. But it provides understanding and context to the decisions that were made.

And here’s where we’re not going to have any kind of agreement whatsoever, none of those descriptors you used for Halsey are even remotely close to the mark and miss it by miles. The only one you have any standing with is a superiority complex…nothing else even remotely sticks or comes close to describing the character. There is nothing twisted or lacking in compassion, humanity, or morals about Halsey.

Halsey knew each and every one of her Spartans on a personal level, whether they were inside or out of the armor and always called each of them by name, the Spartans were viewed and treated like human beings by Halsey and more or less viewed as if they were her children. She went out of her way to try and make sure that each and every one survived augmentations to the point where if she tried to delay it any longer ONI were going to replace her with someone else. And then after the augmentations Halsey worked to heal and/or revive all of the washouts to be as close to a normal life as she could whether they’d actually be able to serve in the field and active combat as a Spartan or not. And for all the knowledge you seem to have and research you’ve seem to have done, it looks to me almost as if you’re glossing over the fact that the Carver Findings and the bombing of the Haven Arcology are what specifically prompted Halsey to sign on with managing the Spartan II Project after initially flat-out refusing to do it or be involved with it. If she was lacking in morals or completely absent in them as you imply, then she wouldn’t have refused involvement with the Spartan Project when first approached about it, she would have jumped at the chance and wouldn’t have needed the convincing of the Carver Findings and Arcology bombing.

Of course no one is going to say that the Spartan Program is something ok or something fine morally, but in the face of the Insurrection it’s totally and completely justified in its existence. It doesn’t change the moral standing of the program, but it’s justified. If anyone is to be criticized or face the repercussions of the moral shortcomings, it should be those who created and approve the program in the first place and would have done it with or without Halsey’s involvement and regardless of whether Halsey had agreed to sign on.

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> Where we’re going to have to disagree is the rest of this. The whole branding Halsey as a scape-goat by Parangosky and those higher up in the chain of command just letting her do it does not make any sense within the universe. The Spartan IIs are one, if not the most closely guarded secret in the UNSC, anyone who so much as thought about revealing any of the information about beyond the fact that the Spartan IIs exist and they’re super-soldiers, would be quietly tried and executed or locked away for the rest of their life for committing treason. It doesn’t matter who the UNSC or ONI would try to pin it on, revealing it at all would spark an Insurrection ten-thousand times worse than what the Spartans created to stop in the first place. This is something that is never going to come out intentionally or deliberately be revealed by anyone in ONI or the UNSC in the interest of self-preservation. Nothing would happen to Halsey, because nothing would ever be said about the Spartans in the first place. It’s never going to come out within the life-times of anyone who was in the know or approved funding/creation of the Spartan IIs.

I know that and you know that, especially in the context of the society we live in today. But the moral ambiguity of the project and Halsey-centric discussion of the series (and these boards) is the drama surrounding the relevant characters in the series right now. If I recall correctly, there was someone, somewhere, entertaining the idea of exposing the program. I could easily be wrong though… My brain blocks out most of Karen Traviss’ books to protect itself from further damage.

> And here’s where we’re not going to have any kind of agreement whatsoever, none of those descriptors you used for Halsey are even remotely close to the mark and miss it by miles. The only one you have any standing with is a superiority complex…nothing else even remotely sticks or comes close to describing the character. There is nothing twisted or lacking in compassion, humanity, or morals about Halsey.

I’m in complete agreement with you. The problem is that most of the Halsey ‘bashing’ in the novels and on these boards paints her in such light. The argument can even be made that someone willing to work on such a project/experiment is morally bankrupt, regardless of there intentions. I own the books, the journal, played all the games, and I pay attention. Your history lesson is irrelevant because I already know everything you’ve written and again agree with you. I know this, but the anti-Halsey crusade conveniently ignores her reluctance/refusal to work on the program initially, and the compassion she displays towards the candidates during and after training.

> Of course no one is going to say that the Spartan Program is something ok or something fine morally, but in the face of the Insurrection it’s totally and completely justified in its existence. It doesn’t change the moral standing of the program, but it’s justified. If anyone is to be criticized or face the repercussions of the moral shortcomings, it should be those who created and approve the program in the first place and would have done it with or without Halsey’s involvement and regardless of whether Halsey had agreed to sign on.

Exactly my point.