Disappointment

[sorry for some grammatical errors, i used google translate.]

I’m very angry.

In the past this game was BR based because it required skill. All other weapons (except power weapons) were ineffective against a good BR. There was a reason for all of this: At a certain level, if everyone uses the same weapon (BR), duels are won by the better player. This was a unique feature of Halo, which made it special compared to other games.

Now there are a lot of powerful weapons that do not require skill: in the close combact, a noob player with a SMG or a Storm Rifle can kill a better one with the BR. From the average distance a noob player with a boltshot or a needler can put anyone in serious difficulty. Certainly the 2% of Onyx or Champions does not give you escape in any case… But for everyone else the game has changed for the worse.

This is a list of the time to kill of some weapons: H5 TTK

Now, duels are between different weapons, and the victory is a a mix of skill and randomness. Perhaps now the game is more realistic because it has good weapons for every situation: in close combat, medium range and far away. But it is no longer a special game. It’s a game like many other: mainstream. A lot of tools to reduce the skill gap and help everyone to do a few more kills and fewer deaths.

Low TTK for easily weapons, remote controlled rockets (Hydra Launcher), Sniper too easy for everyone thanks to the stabilizer instead of the old Jump & Scope, thurster pack to give everyone the chance to evade shots. Also promethean grenades are atomic bombs and they don’t required any skill.

I’m not saying that you have to go back to Halo 3. The problem is not sprint, or some ability. the problem is that you have turned off the magical soul of this game. Halo Reach is probably the worse Bungie’s Halo ever: It had abilities, and many peoples liked its, but competitive gaming (MLG settings) were still good.

You have the right to make the game as you wish. And I will never tire of saying that I do not like this gameplay. As the Halo community is still divided 50 and 50 in this regard, my proposal (because this is not just a post of complaint) is:

Return to split the competitive gaming from all others playlists. Use abilities in team slayer and many others and make an HCS playlists without abilities and BR based (with the old weapon sandbox, so increase the time to kill of many weapons over the BR ttk). This means having two different games? yes, it has always been this way and it was better.

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Noob

Some good points here, especially the one about the BR making Halo a special game. I, too, feel like Halo lost a lot of its identity after all the sandbox updates. Many believe the abilities totally wrecked the game, but I still think they have a place just like you said. It’s pretty disappointing that playlists which were traditionally considered Halo pillars like BTB are currently in the process of being replaced with Super Fiesta versions. It’s cool and all, but it takes so much away from what made Halo special compared to the other big game series. Unlike what many would say, a strong BR does not lessen the effectiveness of power weapons. In Halo 2, the sword was always something players fought over and it was not easy to grab it from another player. It’s weird, the team currently working on 5 will do everything possible to other weapons to balance out the BR, including changing REQ levels for certain weapons like the H2BR, but they won’t revert the changes made to the sandbox which caused this fiasco in the first place.

My hydra rockets lock and then fly off into the sky. But God forbid someone hydras ME. Those rockets will turn 90 degrees if need be.

> 2535461189558984;2:
> Noob

  1. Actually i’m Diamond 2 and i’m playing solo. When I played in a team i was onyx, so i’m not too strong but also not noob.You’ve never been onyx i see… good man :wink:
  2. When i played Halo 2 mlg settings in clan wars and tournaments in 2004-2005 you probably you did not even know halo. I know what I’m talking about.

> 2533274824050480;3:
> Some good points here, especially the one about the BR making Halo a special game. I, too, feel like Halo lost a lot of its identity after all the sandbox updates. Many believe the abilities totally wrecked the game, but I still think they have a place just like you said. It’s pretty disappointing that playlists which were traditionally considered Halo pillars like BTB are currently in the process of being replaced with Super Fiesta versions. It’s cool and all, but it takes so much away from what made Halo special compared to the other big game series. Unlike what many would say, a strong BR does not lessen the effectiveness of power weapons. In Halo 2, the sword was always something players fought over and it was not easy to grab it from another player. It’s weird, the team currently working on 5 will do everything possible to other weapons to balance out the BR, including changing REQ levels for certain weapons like the H2BR, but they won’t revert the changes made to the sandbox which caused this fiasco in the first place.

Yes man, I think that abilities are good for the 90% of the players… but competitive gaming must be return to old. In the past (Halo reach also for example) the playlists Arena and MLG was only the 5% of the total players. So the 95% plays team slayer with abilities but the competitive gaming was without abilities.

About weapons… I have no feeling with the system magnum + thruster pack. I prefer playing more on the ground with the classic strafe system and, obviously, with the BR.

Halo ce and halo 2 is where its at.

> 2533274794211667;7:
> Halo ce and halo 2 is where its at.

But in fact I do not say that halo infinity must be equal to halo 2 or halo ce. I took the example of reach where there was ablities, but sandbox and physic where still good!

In my modest opinion, a good compromise:

  • keep sprint, clamber and ground pound and remove all other abilities.
  • buff many weapons increasing their ttk (magnum also).
  • return to old physic: more basic speed and less gravity

I suggest playing team arena if you don’t like all the splinter/auto stuff. It’s the best way to experience H5 because it doesn’t have that stuff, the magnum is basically the new BR since they ruined the BR halfway through the games’ life cycle. Be be ready for sweat though.

> 2533274824050480;3:
> Some good points here, especially the one about the BR making Halo a special game. I, too, feel like Halo lost a lot of its identity after all the sandbox updates. Many believe the abilities totally wrecked the game, but I still think they have a place just like you said. It’s pretty disappointing that playlists which were traditionally considered Halo pillars like BTB are currently in the process of being replaced with Super Fiesta versions. It’s cool and all, but it takes so much away from what made Halo special compared to the other big game series. Unlike what many would say, a strong BR does not lessen the effectiveness of power weapons. In Halo 2, the sword was always something players fought over and it was not easy to grab it from another player. It’s weird, the team currently working on 5 will do everything possible to other weapons to balance out the BR, including changing REQ levels for certain weapons like the H2BR, but they won’t revert the changes made to the sandbox which caused this fiasco in the first place.

I’m pretty sure most people agree that the weapons update overall was good, MINUS the BR and SMG. Most feel those weapons are garbage now and I would agree. The AR is also debatable but I feel most think it’s in a good spot.

> 2533274815533909;10:
> > 2533274824050480;3:
> > Some good points here, especially the one about the BR making Halo a special game. I, too, feel like Halo lost a lot of its identity after all the sandbox updates. Many believe the abilities totally wrecked the game, but I still think they have a place just like you said. It’s pretty disappointing that playlists which were traditionally considered Halo pillars like BTB are currently in the process of being replaced with Super Fiesta versions. It’s cool and all, but it takes so much away from what made Halo special compared to the other big game series. Unlike what many would say, a strong BR does not lessen the effectiveness of power weapons. In Halo 2, the sword was always something players fought over and it was not easy to grab it from another player. It’s weird, the team currently working on 5 will do everything possible to other weapons to balance out the BR, including changing REQ levels for certain weapons like the H2BR, but they won’t revert the changes made to the sandbox which caused this fiasco in the first place.
>
> I’m pretty sure most people agree that the weapons update overall was good, MINUS the BR and SMG. Most feel those weapons are garbage now and I would agree. The AR is also debatable but I feel most think it’s in a good spot.

Most people of actual population. Many of them are young and didn’t know the golden age of Halo…

but, it would be good to have also only the classic BR (H2A version) and not this magnum.

> 2533274874453277;1:
> In the past this game was BR based because it required skill. All other weapons (except power weapons) were ineffective against a good BR. There was a reason for all of this: At a certain level, if everyone uses the same weapon (BR), duels are won by the better player. This was a unique feature of Halo, which made it special compared to other games.

This is kind of a shallow view on how Halo works that focuses too much on raw aiming skill while ignoring all the rest. The reality is that there is more to weapon use than raw aiming skill. Power weapons are the most obvious example of this, since they are what the game revolves around. However, there is more to power weapons than map control, since even if you have the weapon, there are various levels of effectiveness at which you can make use of them. The obvious thing that everyone understands is not to get in close range encounters with a sniper rifle, but what is less obvious is how to avoid said situation and put yourself in a position where having the sniper rifle gives you the greatest advantage.

The understanding of what having a specific weapon means for you, and why you should care about specific weapons extends beyond power weapons. If everybody in the game spawns with a powerful close range weapon, and you go into every encounter with a precision weapon “because that’s what good players use” and you lose, you’re a bad player. If you get caught off guard by that weapon, and have no chance to fight back because it kills so fast at close range, it’s not because it’s an “OP noob weapons”, it’s because you had bad awareness and were caught by surprise. If you drop that powerful close range weapon for a sniper rifle, leaving you with the sniper rifle and a utility weapon, and you get killed at close range by a superior weapon, you had poor awareness or didn’t understand the ramifications of your weapon choice.

The main utility weapon (whether it be a Magnum, a BR, or a DMR) is there for you to be able to have sensible fire power at any range. It is in fact at its best at mid- to long range, which happens to be the range at which you will most likely need to fight back most of the time. However, it is not there for you to dominate or excel at every encounter you might find yourself in. The sandbox a collection of niche weapons that are in some situations better than the main utility weapon. Having the understanding and ability to make use of these niche weapons makes you a better player. Having these weapons in the sandbox requires the player to have a deeper understanding of the sandbox, to understand the ramifications of their weapon choices, and it puts more emphasis on both situational awareness and understanding of the playspace. Halo is not, and should not be, a one gun + power weapons games. The niche weapons serve a very concrete purpose of increasing the strategic depth of the weapon sandbox.

Of course, all the above comments are entirely hypothetical. Whether a given Halo game does a good job of executing the niche weapon portion of the sandbox is another matter. Halo CE does it the best to date, Halo 3 does perhaps the poorest job of it, and Halo 5 tries by giving weapons more power but fails because it misses the point of “niche”. However, the fact that the current game has a poor niche weapon sandbox is a bad argument against ignoring niche weapons altogether. Rather Halo Infinite should improve on the failures of Halo 5 to create interesting niche weapons, giving the weapons unique attributes that make them functionally different (in contrast to, e.g., the Storm Rifle being just a Covenant version of the AR) while also tightening the niches of weapons.

The bottom line, in any case, is that a game where an AR user beats a BR user at some range is overall a deeper game than one where the BR user always dominates.

> 2533274825830455;12:
> > 2533274874453277;1:
> > In the past this game was BR based because it required skill. All other weapons (except power weapons) were ineffective against a good BR. There was a reason for all of this: At a certain level, if everyone uses the same weapon (BR), duels are won by the better player. This was a unique feature of Halo, which made it special compared to other games.
>
> This is kind of a shallow view on how Halo works that focuses too much on raw aiming skill while ignoring all the rest. The reality is that there is more to weapon use than raw aiming skill. Power weapons are the most obvious example of this, since they are what the game revolves around. However, there is more to power weapons than map control, since even if you have the weapon, there are various levels of effectiveness at which you can make use of them. The obvious thing that everyone understands is not to get in close range encounters with a sniper rifle, but what is less obvious is how to avoid said situation and put yourself in a position where having the sniper rifle gives you the greatest advantage.
>
> The understanding of what having a specific weapon means for you, and why you should care about specific weapons extends beyond power weapons. If everybody in the game spawns with a powerful close range weapon, and you go into every encounter with a precision weapon “because that’s what good players use” and you lose, you’re a bad player. If you get caught off guard by that weapon, and have no chance to fight back because it kills so fast at close range, it’s not because it’s an “OP noob weapons”, it’s because you had bad awareness and were caught by surprise. If you drop that powerful close range weapon for a sniper rifle, leaving you with the sniper rifle and a utility weapon, and you get killed at close range by a superior weapon, you had poor awareness or didn’t understand the ramifications of your weapon choice.
>
> The main utility weapon (whether it be a Magnum, a BR, or a DMR) is there for you to be able to have sensible fire power at any range. It is in fact at its best at mid- to long range, which happens to be the range at which you will most likely need to fight back most of the time. However, it is not there for you to dominate or excel at every encounter you might find yourself in. The sandbox a collection of niche weapons that are in some situations better than the main utility weapon. Having the understanding and ability to make use of these niche weapons makes you a better player. Having these weapons in the sandbox requires the player to have a deeper understanding of the sandbox, to understand the ramifications of their weapon choices, and it puts more emphasis on both situational awareness and understanding of the playspace. Halo is not, and should not be, a one gun + power weapons games. The niche weapons serve a very concrete purpose of increasing the strategic depth of the weapon sandbox.
>
> Of course, all the above comments are entirely hypothetical. Whether a given Halo game does a good job of executing the niche weapon portion of the sandbox is another matter. Halo CE does it the best to date, Halo 3 does perhaps the poorest job of it, and Halo 5 tries by giving weapons more power but fails because it misses the point of “niche”. However, the fact that the current game has a poor niche weapon sandbox is a bad argument against ignoring niche weapons altogether. Rather Halo Infinite should improve on the failures of Halo 5 to create interesting niche weapons, giving the weapons unique attributes that make them functionally different (in contrast to, e.g., the Storm Rifle being just a Covenant version of the AR) while also tightening the niches of weapons.
>
> The bottom line, in any case, is that a game where an AR user beats a BR user at some range is overall a deeper game than one where the BR user always dominates.

Imho, the problem is not ignorance about niche weapons, or not being in the condition to always have the best weapon at the best moment.

Inevitably, the game leads to situations where you do not have the ideal weapon. The respawn for example, is a phase in which you look for your ideal weapons (smg or storm rifle for the close distance and a BR or DMR for the medium-long). But it happens that around the corner you find an enemy that push you with a most suitable weapon of yours, and inevitably you at that moment are disadvantaged.

Seen from the opposite point of view, I’m happy if I have a storm rifle and I find a nearby enemy with the magnum. I kill him fast. But what would have happened if I had to kill him with the magnum? would I kill him anyway? Using a magnum requires more skill than a storm rifle. It does not seem right to blame my enemy because he did not have a storm rifle him too, maybe it’s just spawned or the area of the map where it is is inaccessible at that time.

All this may seem obvious and normal, but i remember the times when close combact was solved with the BR because it was better than an SMG and do you want to know something? It was fantastic. Because there is not any satisfaction to kill an enemy from behind with an SMG, but there was more satisfaction to do it with a BR or DMR, perhaps having the precision of putting a frag grenade under his feet. And having both the same weapon, you could not blame anything else but yourself if you died.

It also happened that you surprise an enemy behind him and start shooting at him, but he is better than you and he had time to turn around and, although he was already half shielded, could kill you. These were the unique things that happened in Halo. Today with the power of new weapons, it happens very rarely.

Now, Halo is more realistic and rational. As in reality, every weapon has its own reason. Now, Halo is a good game, better than any others. But at the time it was epic, and imho, it was better.

> 2533274874453277;13:
> Inevitably, the game leads to situations where you do not have the ideal weapon. The respawn for example, is a phase in which you look for your ideal weapons (smg or storm rifle for the close distance and a BR or DMR for the medium-long). But it happens that around the corner you find an enemy that push you with a most suitable weapon of yours, and inevitably you at that moment are disadvantaged.

So? There will be situations where you are at a disadvantage. That’s just how the game work. That’s how it works with niche weapons, and that’s how it works without niche weapons. The skill in the game is to minimize the frequency of those situations by making decisions. At the start of the match, everyone begins with the same weapons, and an equal opportunity to succeed. If you die ofter that, it can only be because you got outplayed, in which case the opponents deserve whatever advantage they gain from your death. If you believe that every encounter in the game should occur with both players having equal chances of winning the encounter, you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the game.

> 2533274825830455;14:
> > 2533274874453277;13:
> > Inevitably, the game leads to situations where you do not have the ideal weapon. The respawn for example, is a phase in which you look for your ideal weapons (smg or storm rifle for the close distance and a BR or DMR for the medium-long). But it happens that around the corner you find an enemy that push you with a most suitable weapon of yours, and inevitably you at that moment are disadvantaged.
>
> If you believe that every encounter in the game should occur with both players having equal chances of winning the encounter, you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the game.

This is exactly the point. Once upon a time it was so and imho was better. I hope I have not hurt anyone’s sensitivity in expressing my opinion about it. GG

Automatic weapons post-halo 3 have always been balanced to be more effective at close range. Although it feels like the range for a lot of these weapons to be effective have been increased too much. Beginning with Halo Reach, the assault rifle was way too powerful at mid-range, especially considering that the precision weapons were handicapped by bloom. With Halo 5, you run into not only the issue of over-powered automatic weapons, but also the fact that there are far more of them on the map. I think having more automatic weapons might even be the bigger offender.

The OP does have a point about the game being more about precision weapons with the first three halo games. That may not have been intentional, but the weapon sandbox dictated that you better get good with precision weapons or else die a bunch. In Halo Reach and Halo 5, you can run full-time with an automatic and do just fine.

I’m not gonna complain about one thing or the other, but I do prefer a game centered around precision weapons. Automatic weapons, especially if there are too many of them, just makes Halo feel more like Call of Duty.

> 2533274804182731;16:
> Automatic weapons post-halo 3 have always been balanced to be more effective at close range. Although it feels like the range for a lot of these weapons to be effective have been increased too much. Beginning with Halo Reach, the assault rifle was way too powerful at mid-range, especially considering that the precision weapons were handicapped by bloom. With Halo 5, you run into not only the issue of over-powered automatic weapons, but also the fact that there are far more of them on the map. I think having more automatic weapons might even be the bigger offender.
>
> The OP does have a point about the game being more about precision weapons with the first three halo games. That may not have been intentional, but the weapon sandbox dictated that you better get good with precision weapons or else die a bunch. In Halo Reach and Halo 5, you can run full-time with an automatic and do just fine.
>
> I’m not gonna complain about one thing or the other, but I do prefer a game centered around precision weapons. Automatic weapons, especially if there are too many of them, just makes Halo feel more like Call of Duty.

The problem is that a non-power weapon should only ever have two of three: ease of use, range, power. It’s fine for automatics to be easy to use and powerful if that power is limited to a very close range. The issue with the Halo 5 automatics seems to be that it’s not. Either the range should be limited, or the weapons should be made more difficult to use. The third option—making the weapons useless against precision weapons at any range—is not a good one, because if you’re going to make a weapon useless, you might as well remove it entirely.

> 2533274874453277;15:
> > 2533274825830455;14:
> > If you believe that every encounter in the game should occur with both players having equal chances of winning the encounter, you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the game.
>
> This is exactly the point. Once upon a time it was so and imho was better. I hope I have not hurt anyone’s sensitivity in expressing my opinion about it. GG

It has never been the case in Halo that both players entering an encounter always had an equal chance of winning. Even in Halo 3 which had the worst weapon sandbox in the franchise, the encounter would often be decided by the weapon each player had. If it was at close range and one player had a shotgun, they won. If it was at mid range with neither player having a height advantage and the other having a rocket launcher, they won. Ignoring power weapons, the player with height advantage would always be more likely to win the encounter, one player might attack the oher from behind. In general, one player could have an advantage by having a better position both physically and strategically. It was never solely about who had the better aim and the better strafe.

> 2533274825830455;17:
> > 2533274804182731;16:
> > Automatic weapons post-halo 3 have always been balanced to be more effective at close range. Although it feels like the range for a lot of these weapons to be effective have been increased too much. Beginning with Halo Reach, the assault rifle was way too powerful at mid-range, especially considering that the precision weapons were handicapped by bloom. With Halo 5, you run into not only the issue of over-powered automatic weapons, but also the fact that there are far more of them on the map. I think having more automatic weapons might even be the bigger offender.
> >
> > The OP does have a point about the game being more about precision weapons with the first three halo games. That may not have been intentional, but the weapon sandbox dictated that you better get good with precision weapons or else die a bunch. In Halo Reach and Halo 5, you can run full-time with an automatic and do just fine.
> >
> > I’m not gonna complain about one thing or the other, but I do prefer a game centered around precision weapons. Automatic weapons, especially if there are too many of them, just makes Halo feel more like Call of Duty.
>
> The problem is that a non-power weapon should only ever have two of three: ease of use, range, power. It’s fine for automatics to be easy to use and powerful if that power is limited to a very close range. The issue with the Halo 5 automatics seems to be that it’s not. Either the range should be limited, or the weapons should be made more difficult to use. The third option—making the weapons useless against precision weapons at any range—is not a good one, because if you’re going to make a weapon useless, you might as well remove it entirely.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274874453277;15:
> > > 2533274825830455;14:
> > > If you believe that every encounter in the game should occur with both players having equal chances of winning the encounter, you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the game.
> >
> > This is exactly the point. Once upon a time it was so and imho was better. I hope I have not hurt anyone’s sensitivity in expressing my opinion about it. GG
>
> Even in Halo 3 which had the worst weapon sandbox in the franchise, the encounter would often be decided by the weapon each player had. If it was at close range and one player had a shotgun, they won. If it was at mid range with neither player having a height advantage and the other having a rocket launcher, they won. Ignoring power weapons, the player with height advantage would always be more likely to win the encounter, one player might attack the oher from behind. In general, one player could have an advantage by having a better position both physically and strategically. It was never solely about who had the better aim and the better strafe.

obviously in my speech the power weapons were excluded, and I did not mean that two players had the exact same chances, in a scientific way. I mean that duels 1vs1 with the same weapon, makes sure that the victory does not depend on the weapon you used but on all the other factors: skill, strategy, positioning, teamwork ecc.

Of course, even at the time there were exceptions, but it was enough to have a sandbox that rewarded the use of the same weapon. So in MLG settings, it was enough to set BR as the primary weapon and no one dared to use a needler or an smg against a br, in close combact also.

look at this piece of history of Halo:
2006 MLG Las Vegas - National Championships: Carbon vs Final Boss

> 2533274874453277;18:
> obviously in my speech the power weapons were excluded, and I did not mean that two players had the exact same chances, in a scientific way. I mean that duels 1vs1 with the same weapon, makes sure that the victory does not depend on the weapon you used but on all the other factors: skill, strategy, positioning, teamwork ecc.

The outcome of an encounter is a result of the choices made by both players up to that point. The ability to make the choices that lead to your victory is the “skill” here. When you talk about “skill”, it implicitly includes having had the foresight to pick an appropriate weapon for the encounter. Choosing to ignore it doesn’t make it go away.

Also, why would you exclude power weapons when you want a one gun game? All the points you have made thus far apply equally well to power weapons, so if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, there should only ever be one gun in the game.

If you happen to prefer the BR + power weapons style of gameplay, that’s fine. However, don’t try to make it seem like abolishing niche weapons will create the most skill-based game, because it really won’t. It just naively ignores a huge resource.

> 2533274825830455;19:
> > 2533274874453277;18:
> > obviously in my speech the power weapons were excluded, and I did not mean that two players had the exact same chances, in a scientific way. I mean that duels 1vs1 with the same weapon, makes sure that the victory does not depend on the weapon you used but on all the other factors: skill, strategy, positioning, teamwork ecc.
>
> The outcome of an encounter is a result of the choices made by both players up to that point. The ability to make the choices that lead to your victory is the “skill” here. When you talk about “skill”, it implicitly includes having had the foresight to pick an appropriate weapon for the encounter. Choosing to ignore it doesn’t make it go away.
>
> Also, why would you exclude power weapons when you want a one gun game? All the points you have made thus far apply equally well to power weapons, so if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, there should only ever be one gun in the game.
>
> If you happen to prefer the BR + power weapons style of gameplay, that’s fine. However, don’t try to make it seem like abolishing niche weapons will create the most skill-based game, because it really won’t. It just naively ignores a huge resource.

Maybe I did not spy well. My ideal gameplay is BR + some power weapon, like in that video.

Making niche weapons less effective makes gameplay more skill-based because it takes more skills to use a precision weapon (BR or Magnum) than a niche weapon (Needler, Boltshot etc.).

The ability to map control and grab the best weapons is a basic concept of teamwork, but it must be done to get the power weapons, certainly not for a boltshot or needler.
This is my point of view.