I understand that the dimishing returns for supplies have gotten better in the recent patch, but I don’t understand the need for it at all. Can someone please explain the need for this mechanic in an RTS game? I understand that people can snowball without it, but thats the nature of an RTS game. The largest problem I have noticed with turtling isn’t the turrets or leader powers. If i have 3+ bases to your 1, I should be able to endlessly throw units at you to my hearts content. RTS games are usually all about map control. As soon as you know you have lost economy advantage 3/1 bases, you would gg in most RTS games. I am just looking for a decent explaination as to why this exists here.
I think it’s possibly due to limited map size and base plots. Most maps tend to have just enough plots for each player to take 2 and a mini base or 2. Removing diminishing returns entirely would promote greedy play, where an atriox teammate might for example take well beyond his share of plots due to his passive.
It’s to make turtling a somewhat viable strategy up to and during mid-game.
Somewhat.
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> It’s to make turtling a somewhat viable strategy up to and during mid-game.
>
> Somewhat.
I don’t feel like you would need the dimishing returns to achive that result. By the time I have three bases running at full capacity, it is nearing late game if not already there. Maybe a different topic all together, but i don’t feel like turtling is a valid strategy in any high level play anyways. If you are attempting to quick tech to a specific unit, and you throw up some turrets to buy you some time then thats a different story. Turtling essentially says, here take all the expansions im good with my one.
I guess what I am trying to say is that the base advantage doesn’t seem noticable beyond two. In most RTS games, when skill in micro is compareable, macro becomes very important. This is one reason APM becomes so important. The macro seems nonexistant in this game because its not worth it and its a shame because it lowers the skill ceiling.
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> > 2533274809541057;3:
> > It’s to make turtling a somewhat viable strategy up to and during mid-game.
> >
> > Somewhat.
>
> I don’t feel like you would need the dimishing returns to achive that result. By the time I have three bases running at full capacity, it is nearing late game if not already there. Maybe a different topic all together, but i don’t feel like turtling is a valid strategy in any high level play anyways. If you are attempting to quick tech to a specific unit, and you throw up some turrets to buy you some time then thats a different story. Turtling essentially says, here take all the expansions im good with my one.
>
> I guess what I am trying to say is that the base advantage doesn’t seem noticable beyond two. In most RTS games, when skill in micro is compareable, macro becomes very important. This is one reason APM becomes so important. The macro seems nonexistant in this game because its not worth it and its a shame because it lowers the skill ceiling.
Without DR, the instant someone had significantly more pads than you, the game would be lost as the sheer difference in resource production would allow for an irreconcilable difference in advantage.
With DR, additional bases provide some benefit - both in resource production and unit/building variety and numbers - but not to such an extent that someone who hasn’t expanded is up -Yoink-'s creek.
In traditional RTS with resource-collecting units, you could turtle while still collecting the same amount of resources as an enemy who has expanded (until those initial resources run out). You could continue to produce resource collecting units and temporarily continue to match the intake of your enemies while simultaneously building up an army or teching. (Although certainly not indefinitely)
You can’t do that in Halo Wars. You have such a limited number of building plots that without DR you would quickly fall behind an enemy that has expanded.
I’m not saying that HW2 achieves that perfectly or adequately, but that is essentially what it’s in place for.
Diminishing returns is the stupidest thing in this game. Oh you decided to play with yourself in 1 or 2 bases, but I went out and explored and now have 4? Good, we are both even because I can’t produce more supply pads without hurting myself. Like, what? It’s not my fault you didn’t go out there and buy another base. I just hate having to count my supply pads and generators. Oh no, I got 8!?!?!?!?! Better blow it up and build my 4th barracks. Diminishing returns promotes turtling/camping. If I expand, I should be rewarded, not punished. I should eventually out resource you and force you to leave your little safe place and explore.
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> > 2552039788857121;4:
> > > 2533274809541057;3:
> > > It’s to make turtling a somewhat viable strategy up to and during mid-game.
> > >
> > > Somewhat.
> >
> > I don’t feel like you would need the dimishing returns to achive that result. By the time I have three bases running at full capacity, it is nearing late game if not already there. Maybe a different topic all together, but i don’t feel like turtling is a valid strategy in any high level play anyways. If you are attempting to quick tech to a specific unit, and you throw up some turrets to buy you some time then thats a different story. Turtling essentially says, here take all the expansions im good with my one.
> >
> > I guess what I am trying to say is that the base advantage doesn’t seem noticable beyond two. In most RTS games, when skill in micro is compareable, macro becomes very important. This is one reason APM becomes so important. The macro seems nonexistant in this game because its not worth it and its a shame because it lowers the skill ceiling.
>
> Without DR, the instant someone had significantly more pads than you, the game would be lost as the sheer difference in resource production would allow for an irreconcilable difference in advantage.
>
> With DR, additional bases provide some benefit - both in resource production and unit/building variety and numbers - but not to such an extent that someone who hasn’t expanded is up -Yoink-'s creek.
>
> In traditional RTS with resource-collecting units, you could turtle while still collecting the same amount of resources as an enemy who has expanded (until those initial resources run out). You could continue to produce resource collecting units and temporarily continue to match the intake of your enemies while simultaneously building up an army or teching. (Although certainly not indefinitely)
>
> You can’t do that in Halo Wars. You have such a limited number of building plots that without DR you would quickly fall behind an enemy that has expanded.
>
> I’m not saying that HW2 achieves that perfectly or adequately, but that is essentially what it’s in place for.
I disagree. The advantage should be more noticeable. Also, resource advantage can still be overcome by smart counters and strong macro play.
In regards to your comment about traditional RTS games that is false. Take Starcraft for example. Each mineral node can only be harvested by one worker at a time. With maximum workers, you can double your resource income with two bases.
I understand your explaination for why they decided to go with diminishing returns, I just disagee with it. I dont expect it to get completely removed but I do hope they continue to minimize its impact in games with upcoming patches.
The curve is still pretty punishing. The reason it exists is because we don’t have worker units to collect resources taking up population.
It needs to be fixed, but only after jackrabbits have been nerfed, since doing it without a JR nerf would only buff JR players.
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> In regards to your comment about traditional RTS games that is false. Take Starcraft for example. Each mineral node can only be harvested by one worker at a time. With maximum workers, you can double your resource income with two bases.
In SC 2, while only one worker can simultaneously harvest from each crystal node, there is travel time and drop-off time to factor in, so the maximization for probes to each crystal node was actually 3 and 3 for each Vespene geyser (24 per base for max intake, or 16 for max efficiency).
I realize that 24 doesn’t take too long to get to, but it still took some time (more so for toss and terran), so staying with just one base was more viable in SC in the short-term.
So what’s the max amount of supply pads we should make ? Anyone knows ?
They could’ve explained
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> So what’s the max amount of supply pads we should make ? Anyone knows ?
>
> They could’ve explained
Someone told me 7 supply pads and 4 generators. Anything after that and you make fewer resources. Enjoy counting your supply pads and generators.
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> > 2533274799872358;10:
> > So what’s the max amount of supply pads we should make ? Anyone knows ?
> >
> > They could’ve explained
>
> Someone told me 7 supply pads and 4 generators. Anything after that and you make fewer resources. Enjoy counting your supply pads and generators.
This puzzles me sometimes when i play 40-60min game and see at the score screen that opponent actually collected 15-20k more resources even that we had 2-3 bases same time and i was using only 7 pads. Maybe in long game 10-13 pads actully gain something?
It still needs freaking fixed.
I played a guy who had 2 bases and I have every energy pylon and 4+ bases, always had a full army and stuck with me on resource production some how.
It needs fixed still
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> I think it’s possibly due to limited map size and base plots. Most maps tend to have just enough plots for each player to take 2 and a mini base or 2. Removing diminishing returns entirely would promote greedy play, where an atriox teammate might for example take well beyond his share of plots due to his passive.
Well that’s just down to teamwork. And what is true here is that NON-team players are ruining the game.
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> > 2661949065475413;2:
> > I think it’s possibly due to limited map size and base plots. Most maps tend to have just enough plots for each player to take 2 and a mini base or 2. Removing diminishing returns entirely would promote greedy play, where an atriox teammate might for example take well beyond his share of plots due to his passive.
>
> Well that’s just down to teamwork. And what is true here is that NON-team players are ruining the game.
That’s the drawback with games that use matchmaking. Not everyone is a team player.
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> > 2533274820642782;14:
> > > 2661949065475413;2:
> > > I think it’s possibly due to limited map size and base plots. Most maps tend to have just enough plots for each player to take 2 and a mini base or 2. Removing diminishing returns entirely would promote greedy play, where an atriox teammate might for example take well beyond his share of plots due to his passive.
> >
> > Well that’s just down to teamwork. And what is true here is that NON-team players are ruining the game.
>
> That’s the drawback with games that use matchmaking. Not everyone is a team player.
Unless you stack the odds in your favor and actually befriend someone and work together… It’s the best strat, can confirm.
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> > 2661949065475413;15:
> > > 2533274820642782;14:
> > > > 2661949065475413;2:
> > > > I think it’s possibly due to limited map size and base plots. Most maps tend to have just enough plots for each player to take 2 and a mini base or 2. Removing diminishing returns entirely would promote greedy play, where an atriox teammate might for example take well beyond his share of plots due to his passive.
> > >
> > > Well that’s just down to teamwork. And what is true here is that NON-team players are ruining the game.
> >
> > That’s the drawback with games that use matchmaking. Not everyone is a team player.
>
> Unless you stack the odds in your favor and actually befriend someone and work together… It’s the best strat, can confirm.
¯_(ツ)_/¯ more easy for some than others. If everyone had those resources, there would be no need for matchmaking to begin with. But I digress, this is getting off topic.
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> > 2533274820642782;16:
> > > 2661949065475413;15:
> > > > 2533274820642782;14:
> > > > > 2661949065475413;2:
> > > > > I think it’s possibly due to limited map size and base plots. Most maps tend to have just enough plots for each player to take 2 and a mini base or 2. Removing diminishing returns entirely would promote greedy play, where an atriox teammate might for example take well beyond his share of plots due to his passive.
> > > >
> > > > Well that’s just down to teamwork. And what is true here is that NON-team players are ruining the game.
> > >
> > > That’s the drawback with games that use matchmaking. Not everyone is a team player.
> >
> > Unless you stack the odds in your favor and actually befriend someone and work together… It’s the best strat, can confirm.
>
> ¯_(ツ)_/¯ more easy for some than others. If everyone had those resources, there would be no need for matchmaking to begin with. But I digress, this is getting off topic.
Whaaat? Matchmaking is fun, I say there would be a need, but I too digress 
All it does it make sure turtle players can drag a game out for as long as they want. Played 2vs2 with 7 bases to 3, took 3 hours to finish them off with because they were still getting resources at the same rate than us plus one was shipmaster so if you ever got the upper hand “nope” you get your whole army moved back across the map.
They didn’t even try to win, one set up with half pop kodiaks and another half wolverines with a few snipers, the other just sat reavers at the spots you could flank with air then put locusts on a ridge with their almost infinite range you would lose 10-20 pop before you even got in firing range. Neither bothered to attack back they just sat there the whole game even sending messages asking us to leave because the game won’t end. Spamming powers on the bases to destroy them? You just lost the unit fight and they rebuild back to full before you have a decent force again.
If you have superior map control you should be earning more supplies than the opponent and eventually overwhelm them. Those 2 were never going win that fight, they didn’t even try to. They just decided to waste as much time as possible for no reason.