Design experiment: Working with 343's vision

Games Other Halo
1

A lot of the series older fans are kind of frustrated with the direction halo’s been going. For some of us things started going wrong earlier than others, with some people who feel that Halo started going wrong with 2. Most of the threads I’ve seen that detail fixes for perceived shortcomings boil down to “make it less like this and more like the last Halo I liked”. I’ve been guilty of that one myself on several occasions, but I don’t know if it’s doing any good.

343 really wants to sell us on their new ideas, and really want to take the franchise in a different direction. It’s really frustrating to know that the core gameplay I loved is never coming back. (barring an online enabled H2 arcade, which would be amazing, hint hint.) To a certain extent I even kind of agree that it wouldn’t be the best idea to just make the same game over and over again. But maybe some of these new features don’t have to be so bad.

That brings me to today’s experiment. I want all the other bittervets to work with me and brainstorm some ways to improve new halo without turning it into old halo. Just because it’s a new thing doesn’t mean it can’t be a good thing.

Here are the rules for this session:

  1. A proposed change can not remove a feature. Ordinance stays. Flagnums stay. Instant respawns stay. Etc.

  2. No touching the weapon or vehicle sandbox, hitboxes, or other tweaky stuff. We’re only messing with the new things.

  3. Smaller and more easily implemented changes over large sweeping ones.

  4. If your change increases the skillgap, try to do it in a way that will also appeal to a new player. Make it flashy and intuitive. Remember, they’re the target demographic as much as we are, if not more.

  5. If your change breaks something, fix that thing too. (If you make ordinance not random, you have to redesign the specialization that lets you reroll your ordinance into something suitable, for instance.)

  6. Keep in mind why a change you don’t like was originally made. See if you can make it better without going against the spirit of why they changed it.

Lets all toss ideas out there, and once we have a few I’ll compile them and describe how the redesigned gametypes would play out.

I’ll start a simple one:

Flag juggling: I get that this was removed because it was loud and fiddly. The announcer yelled at you constantly, the hud flashed weirdly where the flag was, and it was never really intended functionality. Also, it was an unintuitive thing for a new player to learn and made objective games a bit more of a brick wall than they needed to be. We can’t drop the flag at all now, I think partly because of it, to the game’s detriment. The skill gap dropped a bit when we lost it, but not because of the manual dexterity needed to actually juggle the flag effectively as much as because it restricted possible choices and strategy.

Flag juggling allowed a simple choice between moving quickly and giving away your location or moving slowly and being hidden. That was the core reason we flag juggled, and the core loss from it’s removal. To that end, my change is to add the ability to sprint with the flag. If you sprint with the flag you show up on the hud. If you walk normally, you don’t. This satisfies the strategic role that flag juggling filled while also fixing most of it’s shortcomings. A new player will intuitively attempt to sprint when they first get the flag, so it will be easy to pick up and learn.

The sprint and walk speeds would need to be tweaked a bit to make them appropriate, and we’d need a cool animation that shows that your spartan is really booking it with the flag, but other than that it would be a fairly simple change.

Alright, your turn:

2

[Reserved for community ideas]

3

I like this thread. Its nice to see a waypoint thread inspiring creativity and cooperation!

Let the creative juices flow!

4

I like what you’re doing here, but what I want is just more symmetrical maps that are not designed for vehicle use because this game lacks it a lot.

I would also like initial drops to respawn every now and then, because in slayer we now might get a powerweapon every 2 minutes, but on maps like the pit in Halo 3, you had an overshield, a camo, 2 sniper rifles, a rocket launcher, 2 shotguns and 2 maulers all spawning within 3 minutes or less. it added strategy to the game to learn the spawns and use them to your advantage in order to win the game, and I just want initial drops like on Ragnarok on every map, because the snipers on ragnarok spawn every 3 minutes I believe. it’s not really a mechanic change, but they could just do this in order to make weapon spawning predictable and in order to support map movement, because all what everyone does on Haven is run to the middle, die/kill and die afterwards, mash xxxxxxx, repeat. it feels kind of dull because everyone is just running and gunning in stead of playing strategically.

5

I think a fun playlist would be Infinity fiesta. Everyone starts with one of the secondary weapons and the ordnance drops would be a selection of the starting primary weapons. You can also reroll your drop with something that im not sure of what it could be. This playlist would appeal to both casual and hardcore players.

6

> Here are the rules for this session:
>
> 1. A proposed change can not remove a feature. Ordinance stays. Flagnums stay. Instant respawns stay. Etc.

Sadly, the very first rule is too restrictive to allow for a “perfect” Halo game. If it’s not possible to even come close to perfection, it seems like a waste of time.

For example, that means we can’t remove the feature of not being able to drop the Flag, which means CTF isn’t really CTF, but a stylized game of VIP. There are many, many more.

But I’ll give one set of suggestions under your rules regarding Ordnance: Make ordnance non-random by being able to choose what you want dropped in your loadouts (like COD). Better weapons and items require more “ordnance points” than others. For example, dropping a speed boost takes much less time to do than dropping in a Binary Rifle. Dying makes your ordnance meter go backwards slightly. Betrayals completely reset it. Make Camo an ordinance drop item and make it function so that movement doesn’t affect the transparency. Make ordinance be able to be dropped anywhere you choose on the map so that you can also use it to support team mates if necessary.

7

I refuse for such an amazing thread to get buried under complaints. Also small maps would be amazing.

8

Btw OP, 343’s “vision” as you put it isn’t really “theirs” so to speak, nor are their “new ideas”. The suggestions we are discussing now have already been talked about 5+ years ago on the bungie.net forums and countless other places and the ideas back then were even more advanced than what 343 has even come close to implementing in Halo 4. So yeah, the ideas aren’t anything close to original or creative, they are just obvious things which we all knew would eventually get put into the game if the series went on long enough.

9

> Sadly, the very first rule is too restrictive to allow for a “perfect” Halo game. If it’s not possible to even come close to perfection, it seems like a waste of time.

That’s exactly the point of this thread. You echo a sentiment that I’ve had for a long time, but I don’t know if it’s a constructive sentiment anymore. Especially since if I get a working version of H2 again, I’d probably play that more than a new halo anyway, even if it were fairly good. Also, if 343 really love their new changes, we’re not likely to see them make a huge about face, so it might be better to work with what we have.

> For example, that means we can’t remove the feature of not being able to drop the Flag, which means CTF isn’t really CTF, but a stylized game of VIP. There are many, many more.

That’s exactly the challenge. Can CTF be made skillful and deep again without undoing the changes that 343 liked? That’s what we’re here to try and find out. I think the flag juggling change I mentioned before would help a bit, but it needs more. Ideas?

> But I’ll give one set of suggestions under your rules regarding Ordnance: Make ordnance non-random by being able to choose what you want dropped in your loadouts (like COD). Better weapons and items require more “ordnance points” than others. For example, dropping a speed boost takes much less time to do than dropping in a Binary Rifle. Dying makes your ordnance meter go backwards slightly. Betrayals completely reset it. Make Camo an ordinance drop item and make it function so that movement doesn’t affect the transparency. Make ordinance be able to be dropped anywhere you choose on the map so that you can also use it to support team mates if necessary.

I like this change and I agree that fixing the randomness is one of the most important fixes to ordinance. (However, the randomness might be a large part of why 343 likes it, so we might need to work some controlled randomness in elsewhere.) I have some ideas for revamping ordinance and I’ll trickle them in as thread bumps throughout the week. :smiley:

> Btw OP, 343’s “vision” as you put it isn’t really “theirs” so to speak, nor are their “new ideas”. The suggestions we are discussing now have already been talked about 5+ years ago on the bungie.net forums and countless other places and the ideas back then were even more advanced than what 343 has even come close to implementing in Halo 4. So yeah, the ideas aren’t anything close to original or creative, they are just obvious things which we all knew would eventually get put into the game if the series went on long enough.

I don’t care where the ideas came from. All that matters is 343 implemented them and still want them to be in the game, and that they’re not likely to go away any time soon. I’d rather work with what we’re getting than whine pointlessly or leave, like I’ve been tempted to do sometimes. D:

10

I dont think you can call it 343s new idea when they are just straight up copying call of duty?

11

What we need is a Traditional Aspect for Halo 4 and NO Team Slayer Pro, isn’t anywhere near Traditional.

12

Flood mode revisions- let flood hold other weapons besides the claw/sword. Also Humans can have custom colors

Assault gametype being added in.

Grifball MM

Race being added in.

More comunity maps in MM

13

> More comunity maps in MM

I think it would be fun if there were a “community sawdust room” playlist where you get totally unmoderated random maps and gametypes from the community and then at the end of the session you can rate how fun the map was. Then they make a “best of” playlist where you play the highest voted games.

14

> > Here are the rules for this session:
> >
> > 1. A proposed change can not remove a feature. Ordinance stays. Flagnums stay. Instant respawns stay. Etc.
>
> Sadly, the very first rule is too restrictive to allow for a “perfect” Halo game. If it’s not possible to even come close to perfection, it seems like a waste of time.
>
> For example, that means we can’t remove the feature of not being able to drop the Flag, which means CTF isn’t really CTF, but a stylized game of VIP. There are many, many more.
>
> But I’ll give one set of suggestions under your rules regarding Ordnance: Make ordnance non-random by being able to choose what you want dropped in your loadouts (like COD). Better weapons and items require more “ordnance points” than others. For example, dropping a speed boost takes much less time to do than dropping in a Binary Rifle. Dying makes your ordnance meter go backwards slightly. Betrayals completely reset it. Make Camo an ordinance drop item and make it function so that movement doesn’t affect the transparency. Make ordinance be able to be dropped anywhere you choose on the map so that you can also use it to support team mates if necessary.

I think a more simple solution would be better here. But first, about world ornances, I think that they should drop in very specific, known locations every time. I think the weapons for each location should be set, and should drop three times a match, or every four minutes. This would bring back a element of skill and remove skill-heedless randomness, without completely copying the CE to Reach weapon system. The above system should be for power weapons, but it hink a less stringent system for the avaerage weapons would be good. For example, the weapon locations would not have to be set, and the drops would occur every 30 seconds. Though it adds a little randomness, it is better than the current world ordnance system.

For personal ordnances, I think there should be three set powerups or weapons for every map/gametype. Instead of using the COD system which adds randomness, the three set powerups would be available to everbody and would never change. This would solve the problem of getting a needler in an ordnance drop when your enemy, who did just as well as you, gets a beam rifle.

15

Okay, I think I’m ready to tackle ordinance. Let me know if you guys like what I’m outlining here or how you’d change it.

Step 1: We split all the ordinance weapons and buffs into three tiers. (I’ll explain why soon. Keep in mind that the items in each tier won’t need to be exactly balanced with each other.) Tier 3 includes the speed buff and the weakest ordinance weapons. These are the weapons that are barely better than the starters, but only in very specific situations. Needler, gravity hammer, concussion rifle, LMG, and possibly the shotguns. Tier 2 includes the overshield and the majority of the power weapons: snipers/rockets/stick launcher/laser. These are weapons which are useful in more situations and generally kill in one hit Tier 1 includes the damage buff and the most powerful power weapons. Binary rifle, incendiary launcher, and possibly the fuel rod gun. The first two are really easy to get 1shots with and are basically guaranteed kills, and the FRG which has so much ammo it can fire for days.

Lets split the vehicles up too, since that might be useful later. T3: Mongoose/ghost/regular hog. T2:Banshee, rocket hog, wraith. T1:Gauss hog, scorpion, mantis.

Next, we’re going to add an extra customization menu into the loadout system for ordinance. In that menu, players will choose a weapon (or buff) and a vehicle from each tier. This is separate from your loadouts.

In each map, there will be a certain number of ordinance drop stations. I’ll use ragnarok as an example because everyone is familiar with it and how matches play out. In ragnarok, there would be four to six of these stations. One at each base, one on the hill in the middle, one by turret, and possibly one by each tunnel. Gathering points for ordinance would work exactly the same as it does now, but you would only be able to call down ordinance at the designated ordinance spawn areas.

Each ordinance choice will have a certain point cost in order to call it down. These point values will not be the same for each item in a tier, but all items in a lower tier will be cheaper than the items in the higher tier. When you get enough points to purchase your tier 3 item, you’ll be informed by the ui that you can do so and be prompted to get to a station to purchase your item. At the station, the options to get your tier 2 and tier 1 drop will be grayed out until you have enough to purchase them. This means that players will have to choose whether to buy their tier 3 asset quickly or save up to purchase their higher tier assets.

To promote movement, we can have several different kinds of ordinance drop locations. For the sake of brainstorming, I’ll call these High value, mid value, low value, and vehicle stations. Low value stations (one in each base in our ragnarok example.) call in your ordinance as normal and everyone can use them. Mid and High value stations would offer your asset drops at a reduced price (Or would refund you with a certain amount after a purchase, if that’s too complicated to understand), but would be placed in contentious locations (mid value at turret and possibly by tunnels, and high value near laser spawn on the hill). These locations would go on cooldown after use, promoting map movement. Oh, and we can also add a vehicle station to each base that lets you spend your points on vehicles instead.

When an asset is called in, every player is informed what asset was called and where, so that tactical reactions are possible. A loadout perk could remove or weaken this callout. Engineer would be a good choice for this because this setup would completely break it as is.

Here are the advantages I think the above setup would bring:

  1. Randomness is almost completely removed. Everyone has to work an appropriate amount for their assets and rewards are never given unfairly.

  2. Map control is restored, with people fighting over high value weapon spawns.

  3. Map movement is restored as people move from spawner to spawner to maximize power gain.

  4. A coordinated team will always be able to respond intelligently to situations.

  5. This setup adds many knobs that can be tweaked to improve balance in update. (Most importantly, the price and tier location of each weapon.)

Here are some possible disadvantages

  1. A lot of complexity is added in. Players might be overwhelmed by numbers and icons if the UI doesn’t explain itself really well. This could be a little bit daunting to new players.

  2. Randomness is almost completely removed. Some players like randomness. A solution could be to add a “grab bag” option for each weapon tier that gives you a random weapon from that tier for a reduced cost. Do you want to gamble, or do you want to roll with the same weapon each time? Would this be enough randomness to offset the changes?

What do you guys think? Does this setup mesh well with what you were considering for messing with ordinance? Do you think this setup would play well? If not, how would you change it?

16

Actually, it occurs to me that a lot of the complexity could be harmlessly removed by making it so that all of the ordinance drop locations work like high value locations and the functionality of low value spawners is available everywhere. That way, you’d be able to call in ordinance everywhere, but you’d get it for cheaper at those locations.

Actually, at that point, couldn’t you just spawn in a credit box you could pick up at those locations? Possibilities abound.

Actually, I kind of like the idea of credit pickups to promote map movement in the place of weapon or powerup spawns.

17

I think people would a lot more forgiving if the changes were new ideas and not ripped straight out of COD.

18

> I think people would a lot more forgiving if the changes were new ideas and not ripped straight out of COD.

I get that, and my first instinct when I got to see the first few tricklings of H4 details was “UGH, I play halo instead of CoD for a reason!”

But on reflection none of the individual changes necessarily change the things that make halo at it’s core different from CoD. These are slow tactical combat with chances for comebacks, intelligent map design which promotes map control and movement, and a balanced skillful sandbox. None of the large changes necessarily break those things. I think even instant respawn if handled correctly could be fine. (Hint: spawning further away is more tolerable to people than spawning close after a timer.)

19

Nope.

Sugarcoating the gameplay that Halo has devolved into is the reason that the series continues to net more and more player frustration.

343 has no vision for Halo because they’re a bunch of rag-tag developers from different companies thrown together to try and make a game. I had high hopes for Frank because he’s a Halo veteran, but the fact that he allowed Halo 4’s changes to take place tells me that nobody there understands Halo or why it used to be so good.

20

> Nope.
>
> Sugarcoating the gameplay that Halo has devolved into is the reason that the series continues to net more and more player frustration.
>
> 343 has no vision for Halo because they’re a bunch of rag-tag developers from different companies thrown together to try and make a game. I had high hopes for Frank because he’s a Halo veteran, but the fact that he allowed Halo 4’s changes to take place tells me that nobody there understands Halo or why it used to be so good.

Well the way I see it we have three options. We can leave, we can work with 343 and potentially be listened to, or we can try and turn new halo back into old halo, which seems really unlikely.

I’d rather choose the option that gives me a chance to play a good halo again, especially considering the possibility that we might get an online enabled halo 2 again, which I’d play instead of a more modern halo even if they did revert most of the changes.