Since there have been multiple threads on this topic, I felt that it would be a good idea to wrap all of the arguments against Jetpack up into one single thread so people can easily make a judgement off of it.
First and foremost, the problem with the Jetpack (in its Reach iteration), is the way that it functions as an Armor Ability.
very long duration
quick recharge
ridiculous height gain, much more than is necessary to simply get to another level
a hover effect
increased vertical lift when going off a mancannon
What are the problems that arise from these mechanics? Well here’s a list :
instant height advantage off spawn, completely negating any need to acquire map control and any form of cover other players are taking (spawn across the map, instantly jetpack up and help out your teammate despite failing beforehand)
ability to exploit soft kill zones. yes, you don’t actually have to leave right when the countdown starts, you can stay up in that zone for 10 full seconds, wait a little while, then jetpack up for another 10 full seconds of abuse
completely bypasses Rockets and Grenades. what other armor ability completely bypassed rockets and grenades? AL, except you couldnt move during AL
when you fly directly over an opponent, it drastically increases the difficulty for them to hit a headshot on you, while making it easier for yourself
jetpacking while going off a mancannon literally puts you hundreds of feet above the map, letting you put shots and pretty much anyone anywhere
Does any of that sound like something a “balanced” Armor Ability should do? And before anyone brings up maps, NO the issue is NOT map design, the issue is the AA itself. There is absolutely NO reason maps should be built around a secondary AA. Halo 4’s maps should be built with Sprint in mind only, and the other AA’s should be balanced accordingly to work with EVERY map. Limiting map design for the sake of one ability pretty much forces everyone to use it, which is not good. Do you want to know what a map designed for Jetpack use is like? Look at Swordbase. Jetpack can, and will break every single map in Reach.
Now for the closing part of my argument. Something I said in the other Jetpack thread so everyone would understand where competitive players are truly coming from.
> I don’t expect you to fully grasp the argument until you have played against a team that truly knows how to abuse the jetpack. AA’s should be balanced to the point where they aren’t broken at all player skill levels. Jet pack just so happens to be extremely broken at the higher skill levels in Reach due to its mechanics. Posting arguments based off of your experiences doesn’t amount to much. My arguments are based off of what CAN be done with Jetpack. Most people simply won’t experience how truly broken jetpack is due to being capped off at a certain trueskill, resulting in some bias from them.
I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
> I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
>
> To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
> > I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
> >
> > To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
>
> Read the bottom part of the OP.
I did. You posting arguments about what can be done counts for even less than arguments about what is actually done. The two most common AAs I play against are sprint and AL., jetpack is rarely used and it is even rarer to see it being used to any degree of success.
> > > I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
> > >
> > > To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
> >
> > Read the bottom part of the OP.
>
> I did. You posting arguments about what can be done counts for even less than arguments about what is actually done. The two most common AAs I play against are sprint and AL., jetpack is rarely used and it is even rarer to see it being used to any degree of success.
So because it isn’t commonly abused, it shouldn’t be fixed so it can’t be abused at all? That’s like saying an invincibility glitch shouldn’t be fixed because only 5% of people know how to regularly do it.
> > > > I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
> > > >
> > > > To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
> > >
> > > Read the bottom part of the OP.
> >
> > I did. You posting arguments about what can be done counts for even less than arguments about what is actually done. The two most common AAs I play against are sprint and AL., jetpack is rarely used and it is even rarer to see it being used to any degree of success.
>
> So because it isn’t commonly abused, it shouldn’t be fixed so it can’t be abused at all? That’s like saying an invincibility glitch shouldn’t be fixed because only 5% of people know how to regularly do it.
As I have yet to see any evidence of it being abused, or even having the potential to be abused, I can’t say that it should be fixed.
Show me a video of a team of jetpackers breaking map control in a way that can’t simply be explained by an incompetent team. Then I will agree with you.
> > > > > I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
> > > >
> > > > Read the bottom part of the OP.
> > >
> > > I did. You posting arguments about what can be done counts for even less than arguments about what is actually done. The two most common AAs I play against are sprint and AL., jetpack is rarely used and it is even rarer to see it being used to any degree of success.
> >
> > So because it isn’t commonly abused, it shouldn’t be fixed so it can’t be abused at all? That’s like saying an invincibility glitch shouldn’t be fixed because only 5% of people know how to regularly do it.
>
> As I have yet to see any evidence of it being abused, or even having the potential to be abused, I can’t say that it should be fixed.
>
> Show me a video of a team of jetpackers breaking map control in a way that can’t simply be explained by an incompetent team. Then I will agree with you.
I totally agree with you. In some cases, I found jetpack to be worse than armor lock. To me, the issue is not about map control and getting to good spots. I actually don’t mind it then. It was the people who, upon seeing an enemy and engaging in combat, just start the jetpack and fly up and above me. Not only does this give them a height advantage and a way to go straight over me and land behind me, it ruins my ability to aim for their head. As a person who uses Magnums and DMR’s almost all the time in Halo, this gets horrendously annoying. It needs out.
> > > > > > I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Read the bottom part of the OP.
> > > >
> > > > I did. You posting arguments about what can be done counts for even less than arguments about what is actually done. The two most common AAs I play against are sprint and AL., jetpack is rarely used and it is even rarer to see it being used to any degree of success.
> > >
> > > So because it isn’t commonly abused, it shouldn’t be fixed so it can’t be abused at all? That’s like saying an invincibility glitch shouldn’t be fixed because only 5% of people know how to regularly do it.
> >
> > As I have yet to see any evidence of it being abused, or even having the potential to be abused, I can’t say that it should be fixed.
> >
> > Show me a video of a team of jetpackers breaking map control in a way that can’t simply be explained by an incompetent team. Then I will agree with you.
>
> High level Onyx gameplay with only 1 person abusing jetpack
>
>
> I assume you can imagine what a full team would be like abusing it.
What I see in that video is someone getting more kills when he isn’t using jetpack. He abuses poor map design and player boundaries: which are problems with Reach not the jetpack.
Believing every map should allow for the same ratio of balance for every weapon or AA gives us a very limited pool of map options.
It’s ok for a map to cater to a certain weapon, AA or vehicle more so than others, as long as there is another map that offers something different and nearly polar opposite ideals.
It’s ok for a map or 2 to be JP dominate, as long as there is a map or 2 where JP is pretty useless.
Just like it’s ok to have a map or 2 where the Scorpion rules the other vehicles, but on others it is the Banshee that owns the land.
Of course it would be nice to have a map or 2 designed for an equal-all-around balanced feel for everything, but to design every map under the same ideals, and have many maps… It’s a wonder why the change in scenery is ever needed in the first place.
Without maps to make players feel like their element carries more weight, without maps that give a home field advantage feeling, you remove a great aspect of gaming.
Before you begin mentioning how easy it is to look up and shoot (because that is just common sense), you must take all of the factors into the equation. When someone argues that Jetpack is fine, it is usually argued in the situation of a 1v1 with every other person in the game fighting their own battles (See Example A). People who disagree with this and say Jetpack is broken do so because of what they experience when playing a full team working together that includes Jetpackers (See Example B).
Example A: Sprinter spawns in the rocks on Asylum and sees an opponent Jetpacker fly out of his courtyard above the Sprinter’s carbine.
Example B: Sprinter spawns in the rocks on Asylum and sees an opponent standing on his carbine, and another opponent standing on his street. They both open fire as the Sprinter notices an enemy Jetpacker fly out of his courtyard above the Sprinter’s carbine.
In both examples, if you are the Sprinter and wish to deal with the Jetpacker all you need to do is simply look up a little and there’s little he can do. But in example B, the Jetpacker is only Jetpacking because your attention is distracted by the 2 opponents in power positions over your spawns (aka map control) allowing him to deal damage and gain kills from areas of the map he wouldn’t normally be able to access without the use of his Jetpack.
This is one reason why people say Jetpack is broken. Not because of what normally happens in the average game, but because of what’s capable of happening when a team wants to win badly enough.
> > > > > > > I have never had a problem with jetpacks. It has never negated map control in any game I have been.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To me it seems like it is simply a method of getting from A to B. It adds another dimension to combat, especially in maps like Sword Base. Instead of just watching the lift and stairs, I have to watch the lower walkways to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Read the bottom part of the OP.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did. You posting arguments about what can be done counts for even less than arguments about what is actually done. The two most common AAs I play against are sprint and AL., jetpack is rarely used and it is even rarer to see it being used to any degree of success.
> > > >
> > > > So because it isn’t commonly abused, it shouldn’t be fixed so it can’t be abused at all? That’s like saying an invincibility glitch shouldn’t be fixed because only 5% of people know how to regularly do it.
> > >
> > > As I have yet to see any evidence of it being abused, or even having the potential to be abused, I can’t say that it should be fixed.
> > >
> > > Show me a video of a team of jetpackers breaking map control in a way that can’t simply be explained by an incompetent team. Then I will agree with you.
> >
> > High level Onyx gameplay with only 1 person abusing jetpack
> >
> >
> > I assume you can imagine what a full team would be like abusing it.
>
> What I see in that video is someone getting more kills when he isn’t using jetpack. He abuses poor map design and player boundaries: which are problems with Reach not the jetpack.
> This is one reason why people say Jetpack is broken. Not because of what normally happens in the average game, but because of what’s capable of happening when a team wants to win badly enough.
When it’s used skillfully and as a team, it’s broken?
Would you say static spawns would amplify the feeling of helplessness or deter it?
What happens if we use the H2 or H3 BR in the same context?
In the average game, the previous BR’s are balanced with the sandbox because of the majority of players’ inability stay on target or read a strafe. But when the BR is in the hands of a player who wants to win, who is technically skilled and can read the game, well suddenly the weapon is a demi-god.
> > This is one reason why people say Jetpack is broken. Not because of what normally happens in the average game, but because of what’s capable of happening when a team wants to win badly enough.
>
> When it’s used skillfully and as a team, it’s broken?
> Would you say static spawns would amplify the feeling of helplessness or deter it?
> What happens if we use the H2 or H3 BR in the same context?
> In the average game, the previous BR’s are balanced with the sandbox because of the majority of players’ inability stay on target or read a strafe. But when the BR is in the hands of a player who wants to win, who is technically skilled and can read the game, well suddenly the weapon is a demi-god.
Comparing weapons to AAs is comparing apples to oranges. They are 2 completely different elements of the game with different functions in how they can affect the gameplay overall.
If you’re making this argument, it can safely be assumed that your experiences in the average game =/= the experiences of the people in top-tier competition.
The overall issue in question is balance, and if players are feeling forced to choose a particular style of play to combat that same particular style of play (fighting Jetpack with Jetpack), that particular style of play is imbalanced and needs to be looked at. Simply because you personally haven’t experienced the imbalance, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
I completely agree OP and JP, if it’s in Halo 4’s MP, needs to change. If it was changed to be the equivalent of a jump pack (dbl jump) then it’ll be fine.
> > > This is one reason why people say Jetpack is broken. Not because of what normally happens in the average game, but because of what’s capable of happening when a team wants to win badly enough.
> >
> > When it’s used skillfully and as a team, it’s broken?
> > Would you say static spawns would amplify the feeling of helplessness or deter it?
> > What happens if we use the H2 or H3 BR in the same context?
> > In the average game, the previous BR’s are balanced with the sandbox because of the majority of players’ inability stay on target or read a strafe. But when the BR is in the hands of a player who wants to win, who is technically skilled and can read the game, well suddenly the weapon is a demi-god.
>
> Comparing weapons to AAs is comparing apples to oranges. They are 2 completely different elements of the game with different functions in how they can affect the gameplay overall.
Ahhh, so the definitions apply only when it fits your ideology.
It doesn’t matter if an ability is offensive or passive, the same rules apply.
Yes AA’s and weapons are different corners of the games, the way they are balanced is not different.
> If you’re making this argument, it can safely be assumed that your experiences in the average game =/= the experiences of the people in top-tier competition.
With an assumption like this it is safe to say that you don’t understand your next paragraph
> The overall issue in question is balance, and if players are feeling forced to choose a particular style of play to combat that same particular style of play (fighting Jetpack with Jetpack), that particular style of play is imbalanced and needs to be looked at.
In Halo2 or 3, if you have a BR, what do I need to compete with you?
Certainly I can use any non-BR+non-PW to take you on on any map in H2 or H3 and as long as I have the technical skill then I can beat you right?
> Simply because you personally haven’t experienced the imbalance, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Just because something is tiered higher than others doesn’t make it imbalanced.
It is the gap in tier capabilities that determines imbalance.
That is why the H2/H3 BR’s are OP but the DMR or JP are not.
The problems with jetpack were its ridiculously long hover time and ALL of the maps it touched. Rather than designing every map to work perfectly with jetpack (thus diminishing the value of potentially good maps), it would be easier to just severely nerf or remove jetpack. It should NEVER be possible to abuse soft kill zones (they really should just return to invisible barriers), and it should NEVER be possible to navigate the map quicker than anyone in the entire game. Also, don’t give me that stupid “you can choose jetpack too” -Yoink-; I don’t want to use a broken element of the game. That’s like saying “super jumping in Halo 2 is okay because you can do it too!”
Make the jetpack a short jump pack, or don’t put it into War Games. Keep it for SPops and Campaign.