What necessary changes are needed to aid them, particularly against warthogs and marauders, without rendering vehicles useless again?
I’d say energy reduction. Its very punishing to have to double pump them to fight off vehicles, and leaves you from being able to get their tech 3 upgrade a lot of the time when its really needed.
That and base dps. But Anti Vehicles arent bad atm, they are just punishing for the late game when someone is pushing something thats nonstop supplies and gets t3 and armory upgrades while your stuck countering
Maybe a decrease in power cost and population count?
Are we referring to both factions? Cyclops definitely need a change. Our options for any unit are power cost, supply cost, health, dps, and movement speed. Cyclops have a luxury in that they have an upgrade as well that can be modified. Perhaps reduce the upgrade to T2 plus a movement buff to counter the punishing power costs and movement speeds of early vehicle rushes (T1 and T2 vehicles are fast).
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> I’d say energy reduction. Its very punishing to have to double pump them to fight off vehicles, and leaves you from being able to get their tech 3 upgrade a lot of the time when its really needed.
>
> That and base dps. But Anti Vehicles arent bad atm, they are just punishing for the late game when someone is pushing something thats nonstop supplies and gets t3 and armory upgrades while your stuck countering
agree, its hard to tec up when your forced to use Hunters and cyclopes against vehicles. AV is slow and only good against vehicles with T3 upgrade. I would recommend a small power change by maybe 20 power to supplies might work rather well.
all counter units cost considerable power & supplies when compared to mainline units like marines, hogs/tanks, and banshees soo reducing the power cost of 1 counter unit throws the group of counter units out of intended alignment.
However, I agree that these units should be better in their respective engagements.
Engineer shields and shrouds help keep the anti-vehicle alive. Seems obvious but no one ever builds them.
Speed and damage increase is in order. Not only do they not trade well, there’s no way to keep up with hogs even a little bit. I do like the vehicle meta, but AV needs to do it’s job to some extent.
The true counter to vehicles is air. While I agree that AV infantry could use a SMALL buff to damage to compensate for all the recent vehicle buffs, all this talk of speed and health increases is concerning. The whole point of increasing the power cost of counter units and strengthening core unit was to promote mixed armies and dissuade people from building solely counter units. There is a very fine line here. If cyclops are too good at their job, vehicles are useless and air will become prevalent again. If cyclops aren’t good enough, we’ll still have this vehicle-doninated meta
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> The true counter to vehicles is air. While I agree that AV infantry could use a SMALL buff to damage to compensate for all the recent vehicle buffs, all this talk of speed and health increases is concerning. The whole point of increasing the power cost of counter units and strengthening core unit was to promote mixed armies and dissuade people from building solely counter units. There is a very fine line here. If cyclops are too good at their job, vehicles are useless and air will become prevalent again. If cyclops aren’t good enough, we’ll still have this vehicle-doninated meta
The problem with air countering vehicles is bad because a vehicle army with wolverines now counter air. I am not sure what, but something has to be done about the AV because when someone has scouted and they see their opponent going really heavy on vehicles and decide to go vehicle mixed in with AV as a counter they should be rewarded with winning because of the good counter. But with certain leader powers and great vehicle speed, the guy who didn’t scout and who just pumped vehicles non-stop might actual end up winning. Maybe a slight dps buff or health buff or speed, anything really; not to much to overwhelm the vehicles, but a nice small buff to help out the actual role of AV.
IMO without having completed testing interactions and only going by gameplay, cyclopes and hunters area bit too expensive, don’t quite counter vehicles as efficiently as they should, and have very poor base DPS. While I agree that hunters shouldn’t function as an everything killer, it just seems more practical to out vehicle your opponent than to try and double down on infantry with hunters. some possible solutions I can think of include a modest t2 vehicle DPS buff (3-4%) and 1 of the following
- Give core infantry a t3 upgrades that makes them more reliable building killers
- make rush units more resistant to leader powers like hunters brand, mac blasts, (Going infantry against voridus is an auto loss)
- give hunters/ cyclopes more building DPS so it isn’t as much of a trade off between “army killing” and “base killing”
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> Maybe a decrease in power cost and population count?
Just lowering their population count would be a huge buff. The biggest buff marauders and hogs got was lowering their pop. So having that much more AV in an army could turn the tides. If they do lower their pop then their cost should at least stay the same since they’ll have much more combat prowess per pop.
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> IMO without having completed testing interactions and only going by gameplay, cyclopes and hunters area bit too expensive, don’t quite counter vehicles as efficiently as they should, and have very poor base DPS. While I agree that hunters shouldn’t function as an everything killer, it just seems more practical to out vehicle your opponent than to try and double down on infantry with hunters. some possible solutions I can think of include a modest t2 vehicle DPS buff (3-4%) and 1 of the following
> 1) Give core infantry a t3 upgrades that makes them more reliable building killers
> 2) make rush units more resistant to leader powers like hunters brand, mac blasts, (Going infantry against voridus is an auto loss)
> 3) give hunters/ cyclopes more building DPS so it isn’t as much of a trade off between “army killing” and “base killing”
Hunters and Cyclopes are great AV but without T3 upgrade, they are garbage then for damage for very high cost. They cost too much power to upgrade to T3 and get upgrade so you pretty much build vehicle vs vehicle or you lose control during mid game.
In my opinion when they nerfed anti vehicles interaction with t2 vehicles by 33% they literally ruined 1/3 of this game along with certain leaders such as cutter and certain builds with Jerome/kisano. the other day i was in customs with some friends i usually play with and decided you know what lets give cutter a try and give my old Jerome build a try. i was so disappointed i am here now posting in this thread.
that 33% nerf to anti vehicle was at the same level as the forge hogs 300% buff on ruining certain leaders and builds. if you test 1 cyclops vs 1 warthog the outcome is stupid, the cyclops wins with about 1/4 of its health remaining here’s the issue. anti vehicle cost power, power is far more valuable than supply and slower to gain. warthogs cost 250 supply and are massable while teching up while cyclops slow your tech to a hault without actually hard countering the only supply costing unit. this is the same outcome with hunters, if you think making cyclops slows your tech without actually hard countering hogs giving u map control then you have no idea. you cant even gain map control with making ANTI VEHICLE AT TECH 2 how dumb is this meta LOL.
my solution is simple, increase cyclops dps vs t2 by 15% and reduce cyclops cost by 40 power and 30 supply’s. reduce hunter cost by at least 30 supply’s 30 power. i don’t want this game to be a counter mass again but for the love of god make cutter great again, make infantry builds great again, make barracks at tech 3 great again.
on a side note, cyclops at tech 3 fully upgraded actually counter tech 3 vehicles, why don’t cyclops at tech 2 counter a tech 2 vehicle or have a tougher time. makes no since and i am sick of getting rolled by warthogs because i play cutter and do what cutters should be able to do, make infantry all game. infantry should be viable just like vehicles and air are.
rant over
Edit- 1 more thing, killing cyclops/hunters with ability’s is far easier since they have lower health bars while warthogs have massive health bars and even if you lost a couple who cares because they only cost supply’s. that’s another issue cyclops hauling tech without giving u full map control is utter shity