Cross-play Balance

Games Halo Infinite
1

Hello all, Onyx The Wolf here!

So, as is implied by the title, I want to raise the concern of cross-play balance.

Anyone who has played MCC on PC knows that 343i does not thus far have a good track record of balancing cross-play PvP. and I think it is important, that in the vein of their statement about designing this game from the ground up for PC and Console alike, that we ask the hard questions about the behind the scenes weapon functionality for the two systems.

Reason being that, if we do not grill them about it, then we may end up with a second coming of MCC where anyone using twin sticks is at a clear and unfair advantage. I believe that, above all else, the game play should be as consistent as possible regardless of input.

NOW, from what we have seen thus far, it seems promising, all the crosshairs that we have seen seem to indicate and incredibly narrow cone of fire for many weapons, which by itself will make life easier for KB+M players, but I really don’t want a situation where PC players are outright quitting because of a “controllers or bust” mentality that has permeated MCC, and was only worsened by the addition of a input based matchmaking queue wherein the game becomes extremely fragmented and people flippantly state “just use input based MM” whenever someone brings up the legitimate issues that exist in the mechanical balancing of MCC.

This is a short one compared to things I’ve written in the past, but I want to get people talking about this all the same. it is important for a healthy cross-play community

Thank you all for your time and have a wonderful day!

See Y’all Starside!

2

Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.

3

> 2533274866536985;2:
> Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.

here is hoping that matchmaking times arent -Yoink- like input based matching in MCC, Free to Play should help, but beyond that, not everyone plays comp, in fact, MOST people DON’T play competitive, and the gameplay experience NEEDS to feel fair and consistent in cross-play. otherwise we just end up right where we are with MCC.

4

> 2533274866536985;2:
> Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.

will there be a way to turn it off for ranked for people who dont care? and still want to play with friends who use different inputs

5

> 2533274894525958;1:
> Hello all, Onyx The Wolf here!
>
> So, as is implied by the title, I want to raise the concern of cross-play balance.
>
> Anyone who has played MCC on PC knows that 343i does not thus far have a good track record of balancing cross-play PvP. and I think it is important, that in the vein of their statement about designing this game from the ground up for PC and Console alike, that we ask the hard questions about the behind the scenes weapon functionality for the two systems.
>
> Reason being that, if we do not grill them about it, then we may end up with a second coming of MCC where anyone using twin sticks is at a clear and unfair advantage. I believe that, above all else, the game play should be as consistent as possible regardless of input.
>
> NOW, from what we have seen thus far, it seems promising, all the crosshairs that we have seen seem to indicate and incredibly narrow cone of fire for many weapons, which by itself will make life easier for KB+M players, but I really don’t want a situation where PC players are outright quitting because of a “controllers or bust” mentality that has permeated MCC, and was only worsened by the addition of a input based matchmaking queue wherein the game becomes extremely fragmented and people flippantly state “just use input based MM” whenever someone brings up the legitimate issues that exist in the mechanical balancing of MCC.
>
> This is a short one compared to things I’ve written in the past, but I want to get people talking about this all the same. it is important for a healthy cross-play community
>
> Thank you all for your time and have a wonderful day!
>
> See Y’all Starside!

Yeah it won’t be balanced to the degree that would ever meet our reality. First thing I am doing is switching it to controller input only.

6

> 2533274800955039;4:
> > 2533274866536985;2:
> > Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.
>
> will there be a way to turn it off for ranked for people who dont care? and still want to play with friends who use different inputs

That is not clear at this time. I think the challenge you would face is that you would need everyone on both teams to have turned it off for that too work. So maybe but I suspect you’ll have greater wait times as you’ll only be queuing against people who also want mixed input ranked.

7

Upfront, I have never touched MCC on PC.

In my experience, and from my understanding of community sentiments, M+K players are generally far better off than controller players when in a match up. I’m surprised to hear that MCC is tougher on M+K.

I think the problem with balancing for M+K is that the skill range on M+K is far far wider than on keyboard. If I make the guns feel comparable to controller for a newer or average PC player, than advanced players will dominate comparably skilled controller players with laser aim.
If I balance for the skilled players to be comparable equally skilled controller players, the newer players will not be able to play at all.

Looking at a game without cross play but a large population on console and PC, Destiny on PC is completely different than on console with the M+K making many guns feel like lasers when the same gun feels okay on console.

It’s a balancing act for sure and it sounds like 343 could tune MCC better for PC, but i imagine it’s far harder to balance M+K for the widest range of players than doing thr same for controllers.

8

> 2535469609708123;7:
> Upfront, I have never touched MCC on PC.
>
> In my experience, and from my understanding of community sentiments, M+K players are generally far better off than controller players when in a match up. I’m surprised to hear that MCC is tougher on M+K.
>
> I think the problem with balancing for M+K is that the skill range on M+K is far far wider than on keyboard. If I make the guns feel comparable to controller for a newer or average PC player, than advanced players will dominate comparably skilled controller players with laser aim.
> If I balance for the skilled players to be comparable equally skilled controller players, the newer players will not be able to play at all.
>
> Looking at a game without cross play but a large population on console and PC, Destiny on PC is completely different than on console with the M+K making many guns feel like lasers when the same gun feels okay on console.
>
> It’s a balancing act for sure and it sounds like 343 could tune MCC better for PC, but i imagine it’s far harder to balance M+K for the widest range of players than doing thr same for controllers.

Games SHOULD NOT be balanced around the top 1% of players.

also, self plug HERE for what it is actually like to play on pc with KB+M in MCC

EDIT: you will also see people who would rather dismiss the problem than actually spur conversation about fixing it

EDIT 2: To be clear, I am not saying there shouldnt be a high skill celling, I am simply saying that the game shouldnt be designed assuming everyone is already at that celling. there should absolutely be potential to reach it, but the top 1% of players shouldnt dictate the design seeing as much of what is in the game will be disabled for pro play anyway

9

> 2535469609708123;7:
> Upfront, I have never touched MCC on PC.
>
> In my experience, and from my understanding of community sentiments, M+K players are generally far better off than controller players when in a match up. I’m surprised to hear that MCC is tougher on M+K.
>
> I think the problem with balancing for M+K is that the skill range on M+K is far far wider than on keyboard. If I make the guns feel comparable to controller for a newer or average PC player, than advanced players will dominate comparably skilled controller players with laser aim.
> If I balance for the skilled players to be comparable equally skilled controller players, the newer players will not be able to play at all.
>
> Looking at a game without cross play but a large population on console and PC, Destiny on PC is completely different than on console with the M+K making many guns feel like lasers when the same gun feels okay on console.
>
> It’s a balancing act for sure and it sounds like 343 could tune MCC better for PC, but i imagine it’s far harder to balance M+K for the widest range of players than doing thr same for controllers.

Thats why you are saying this. Because how the game is built mkb population is already dying in mcc. Also with a controller you can easily dominate a mkb controller in many games in mcc. So no both are at advantage and disadvantage. Also trust me with these kind of conversations you wont go anywhere. I have seen it in halo already so whatever happens every one has to deal with it

10

> 2535410664632466;9:
> > 2535469609708123;7:
> > Upfront, I have never touched MCC on PC.
> >
> > In my experience, and from my understanding of community sentiments, M+K players are generally far better off than controller players when in a match up. I’m surprised to hear that MCC is tougher on M+K.
> >
> > I think the problem with balancing for M+K is that the skill range on M+K is far far wider than on keyboard. If I make the guns feel comparable to controller for a newer or average PC player, than advanced players will dominate comparably skilled controller players with laser aim.
> > If I balance for the skilled players to be comparable equally skilled controller players, the newer players will not be able to play at all.
> >
> > Looking at a game without cross play but a large population on console and PC, Destiny on PC is completely different than on console with the M+K making many guns feel like lasers when the same gun feels okay on console.
> >
> > It’s a balancing act for sure and it sounds like 343 could tune MCC better for PC, but i imagine it’s far harder to balance M+K for the widest range of players than doing thr same for controllers.
>
> Thats why you are saying this. Because how the game is built mkb population is already dying in mcc. Also with a controller you can easily dominate a mkb controller in many games in mcc. So no both are at advantage and disadvantage. Also trust me with these kind of conversations you wont go anywhere. I have seen it in halo already so whatever happens every one has to deal with it

Yeah tbh the only reason I comment on these posts is A) to point out its not as easy as “just balance it” B) so that readers and 343 understand that the conversation is not one-sided if they read these posts. I don’t expect to change people’s opinions on any issue as they are generally based more in their perception than in reality and while I can argue about the reality of the situation, their perception is something that is valid to them, and something I can not really comment on.

11

Just use a controller to be on an even playing field.

12

The game does not need to be any more balanced for input devices than mcc already is.

Bullet magnetism works for kbm and controller, so landing shots is already easier for kbm player then they are used to.

From my estimation, they addressed issues which plagued kbm early on which was the inconsistency with aiming.

The reality is your top kbm players do NOT play Halo. They play other games. Let’s take the game closest to Halo in feel/play which has a large population of kbm and controller players. Destiny 2. Your best pvp players in destiny 2 we’re kbm players, more often than not.

Kbm players are not disadvantaged in mcc. It’s simply that they are not trained enough, and the population was never there.

13

Obviously I can’t say for certain as none of us have played it yet, but judging from the overview it appears there’s much less bullet magnetism than previous titles and if that is the case I hope that will at least help with controller/kbm balancing. I have a feeling there will be less aim assist as well.

14

Unlike MCC, Infinite was designed for PC from the beginning, so I think many M&K players are going to be pleasantly surprised at how balanced the game will feel compared to what happened to Reach when it first arrived on PC.

If anything, I think 343 wants to make the game as balanced as possible for both inputs. That said, I feel like the core gameplay loop of Halo still tends to favor controller players, since the game largely doesn’t have recoil patterns for guns like other FPS games.

It’ll be difficult for them to do, but I think what they are going for is reducing overall aim assist for controller, and I personally think that’s a good thing. It’ll increase the skill gap, while also balancing out the 2 inputs a bit more.

15

> 2535469609708123;10:
> > 2535410664632466;9:
> > > 2535469609708123;7:
> > > Upfront, I have never touched MCC on PC.
> > >
> > > In my experience, and from my understanding of community sentiments, M+K players are generally far better off than controller players when in a match up. I’m surprised to hear that MCC is tougher on M+K.
> > >
> > > I think the problem with balancing for M+K is that the skill range on M+K is far far wider than on keyboard. If I make the guns feel comparable to controller for a newer or average PC player, than advanced players will dominate comparably skilled controller players with laser aim.
> > > If I balance for the skilled players to be comparable equally skilled controller players, the newer players will not be able to play at all.
> > >
> > > Looking at a game without cross play but a large population on console and PC, Destiny on PC is completely different than on console with the M+K making many guns feel like lasers when the same gun feels okay on console.
> > >
> > > It’s a balancing act for sure and it sounds like 343 could tune MCC better for PC, but i imagine it’s far harder to balance M+K for the widest range of players than doing thr same for controllers.
> >
> > Thats why you are saying this. Because how the game is built mkb population is already dying in mcc. Also with a controller you can easily dominate a mkb controller in many games in mcc. So no both are at advantage and disadvantage. Also trust me with these kind of conversations you wont go anywhere. I have seen it in halo already so whatever happens every one has to deal with it
>
> Yeah tbh the only reason I comment on these posts is A) to point out its not as easy as “just balance it” B) so that readers and 343 understand that the conversation is not one-sided if they read these posts. I don’t expect to change people’s opinions on any issue as they are generally based more in their perception than in reality and while I can argue about the reality of the situation, their perception is something that is valid to them, and something I can not really comment on.

if you checked the link I shared earlier, I detail a lot of the problems that KB+M has in MCC compared to Gamepad, also I am aware that it’s not as easy as “just balance it”, but the point is to make sure that the conversation happens.

> 2533274818084099;11:
> Just use a controller to be on an even playing field.

And the reward for the least helpful comment goes to. . .

> 2533274804556982;12:
> The game does not need to be any more balanced for input devices than mcc already is.
>
> Bullet magnetism works for kbm and controller, so landing shots is already easier for kbm player then they are used to.
>
> From my estimation, they addressed issues which plagued kbm early on which was the inconsistency with aiming.
>
> The reality is your top kbm players do NOT play Halo. They play other games. Let’s take the game closest to Halo in feel/play which has a large population of kbm and controller players. Destiny 2. Your best pvp players in destiny 2 we’re kbm players, more often than not.
>
> Kbm players are not disadvantaged in mcc. It’s simply that they are not trained enough, and the population was never there.

Have you tried using KB+M on Halo PC? Because its quite easy to say from the perspective of someone who hasnt used it that it is perfectly balanced. Also, Destiny is hardly a comparable game, as it is one of the easiest games with the most forgiving hitboxes of almost any FPS, to the point of even not having aim assist on PC is hardly an issue, and its TTK’s are still considerably quicker in Destiny than they are in Halo, the longer you have to maintain your target, the harder it gets to use KB+M on account of having to manually micro-adjust your shots, compared to Gamepad where the aim assist takes care of those micro adjustments for you. In Halo 3, as an example, it is nearly impossible to get a 4SK against anyone who isn’t running straight at you due to the entire aim assist and bullet magnetism system being gutted for M+KB, and your bursts will not reliably land on target, and the reliability drops of MUCH sooner than it does when those systems are active.

> 2533275031939856;13:
> Obviously I can’t say for certain as none of us have played it yet, but judging from the overview it appears there’s much less bullet magnetism than previous titles and if that is the case I hope that will at least help with controller/kbm balancing. I have a feeling there will be less aim assist as well.

> 2533274840471901;14:
> Unlike MCC, Infinite was designed for PC from the beginning, so I think many M&K players are going to be pleasantly surprised at how balanced the game will feel compared to what happened to Reach when it first arrived on PC.
>
> If anything, I think 343 wants to make the game as balanced as possible for both inputs. That said, I feel like the core gameplay loop of Halo still tends to favor controller players, since the game largely doesn’t have recoil patterns for guns like other FPS games.
>
> It’ll be difficult for them to do, but I think what they are going for is reducing overall aim assist for controller, and I personally think that’s a good thing. It’ll increase the skill gap, while also balancing out the 2 inputs a bit more.

I’m getting the same sense that it will be far more balanced in infinite, but the situation in MCC is in my opinion cause for concern as it is STILL an issue, and people are dismissive to the point of 343i thinking that simply adding a band-aid toggle fixed the issue, while more and more PC players just leave the game.

16

> 2533274800955039;4:
> > 2533274866536985;2:
> > Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.
>
> will there be a way to turn it off for ranked for people who dont care? and still want to play with friends who use different inputs

Yeah this is my BIGGEST complaint.
As of right now there is no way to play comp with my MnK friends. I was really hoping they would have a separate playlist for both inputs enabled in ranked.

But so far it’s not looking like it. Super disappointing.

17

> 2533274811807878;16:
> > 2533274800955039;4:
> > > 2533274866536985;2:
> > > Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.
> >
> > will there be a way to turn it off for ranked for people who dont care? and still want to play with friends who use different inputs
>
> Yeah this is my BIGGEST complaint.
> As of right now there is no way to play comp with my MnK friends. I was really hoping they would have a separate playlist for both inputs enabled in ranked.
>
> But so far it’s not looking like it. Super disappointing.

Personally I think separating the player base is the band-aid solution. the more difficult, but far preferable option would be to ensure a balance between the two control types. the band-aid solution already resulted in a lackluster PC showing in MCC

18

> 2533274894525958;17:
> > 2533274811807878;16:
> > > 2533274800955039;4:
> > > > 2533274866536985;2:
> > > > Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.
> > >
> > > will there be a way to turn it off for ranked for people who dont care? and still want to play with friends who use different inputs
> >
> > Yeah this is my BIGGEST complaint.
> > As of right now there is no way to play comp with my MnK friends. I was really hoping they would have a separate playlist for both inputs enabled in ranked.
> >
> > But so far it’s not looking like it. Super disappointing.
>
> Personally I think separating the player base is the band-aid solution. the more difficult, but far preferable option would be to ensure a balance between the two control types. the band-aid solution already resulted in a lackluster PC showing in MCC

While I don’t disagree with the PC showing being “lack luster”

I do disagree with your statements of it being a bandaid solution. You have to remember the halo series was built on xbox first and than ported later(Which is why h1/h2) feel good on MnK.

You also have to remember ALOT of the players on mcc have been playing halo for min +10 years. So of course it’s easy to blame AA and magnetism (There are plenty of amazing MnK players (activee being the best imo) But those players are outwayed by ex pros/ 50’ grinders etc etc who have been on controller for X amount of years. It’s a problem that is a hard fix because it seems that alot of MnK players think that they should naturally be better and that AA/magnetism make a HUGE difference and they truely don’t. And this is someone who frags about the same on MnK/controller, And than go on to blame any number of reasons for getting dumpstered etc

19

> 2533274811807878;18:
> > 2533274894525958;17:
> > > 2533274811807878;16:
> > > > 2533274800955039;4:
> > > > > 2533274866536985;2:
> > > > > Halo infinite’s solution will be to have input based matching on by default in ranked playlists. Social it will be optional.
> > > >
> > > > will there be a way to turn it off for ranked for people who dont care? and still want to play with friends who use different inputs
> > >
> > > Yeah this is my BIGGEST complaint.
> > > As of right now there is no way to play comp with my MnK friends. I was really hoping they would have a separate playlist for both inputs enabled in ranked.
> > >
> > > But so far it’s not looking like it. Super disappointing.
> >
> > Personally I think separating the player base is the band-aid solution. the more difficult, but far preferable option would be to ensure a balance between the two control types. the band-aid solution already resulted in a lackluster PC showing in MCC
>
> While I don’t disagree with the PC showing being “lack luster”
>
> I do disagree with your statements of it being a bandaid solution. You have to remember the halo series was built on xbox first and than ported later(Which is why h1/h2) feel good on MnK.
>
> You also have to remember ALOT of the players on mcc have been playing halo for min +10 years. So of course it’s easy to blame AA and magnetism (There are plenty of amazing MnK players (activee being the best imo) But those players are outwayed by ex pros/ 50’ grinders etc etc who have been on controller for X amount of years. It’s a problem that is a hard fix because it seems that alot of MnK players think that they should naturally be better and that AA/magnetism make a HUGE difference and they truely don’t. And this is someone who frags about the same on MnK/controller, And than go on to blame any number of reasons for getting dumpstered etc

Reaching into anecdotal stuff, I have a post in the MCC Forums regarding the objective info, but anecdotally, I have played halo both on Console and on PC, and have been comfortable playing on both for extended periods at different times, there is a DEFINITE disparity, and as you pointed out, the games were designed on console, as a result, they were specifically built around systems like aim assist and bullet magnetism, and gutting them legitimately breaks certain weapons to the point of near un-usability, and these are amplified by using PC specific setting that the games were equally never designed to accommodate.

20

Could you go more into details about this disparity that you’re mentioning? I don’t play MCC PvP that much (doing SLASO, finished CE recently!) and am curious on what the big issues are.