Counter-arguements against anti-Sangheili claims

Notice: Now before you say “not another one of THESE threads”, I created this post in another thread, and I thought that this warranted a thread of it’s own, especially considering it’s length. Below is a list of arguements that I commonly see against the reinclusion of Sangheili in multiplayer. They are all very poorly developed and short sighted, with solutions that are so obvious, that it makes me wonder how much attention people put into this subject when countering it.

So I have typed up abridged versions of these arguements and have put in my counter-arguements against them. I hope with this, that I may spark a few lightbulbs in your heads, and for you to help meet a compromise on this increasingly dire issue. Let us begin:

  1. Halo’s multiplayer is cannon now, and Sangheili wouldn’t be training or operating with Spartans:

Actually, the Anvil Initiative says otherwise, and Hunters in the Dark’s plot revolves around a joint-Sangheili/Human operation. So the canon excuse is out the window.

  1. No it isn’t, multiplayer is taking place on Infinity, not Anvil Station, and Sangheili would never be allowed on the UNSC’s flagship!

Even if all of above is true, I find that where the exact location of the Holo-room is to be irrelevant. This can be resolved with an incredibly simple retcon.

  1. Well Sangheili are a foot taller than Spartans, so their height would disrupt balance.

There’s quite a few compromises to this. First off, the Sangheili were actually the same height as Spartans in CE and 2, it wasn’t till Bungie hunched them over in 3 and put them on stilts in Reach that they became so tall. And even then, Sangheili have a much wider height range than humans do, with 7’ 4" Sangheili being as common as a 5’ 8" human male, which is more common than you would think.

  1. But I like Sangheili being taller than Spartans, it makes them unique and not a reskin. It also makes gametypes like invasion really enjoyable.

I understand that, and my proposal to this is to make it so that we can customize each species’ traits indepently, including height/hitbox. In competitive game modes, they will be reskins of Spartans and in Invasion, they will have unique traits. Not only would this allow for equal starts in competitive, fun game modes like invasion, and restore a dying community, this will empower the creative side of the community, allowing us to create a much wide variety of game modes, make quality machinimas, and much more.

  1. Well, theres still the problem with the poor hitboxes, that was really annoying, plus their anatomy is to weird for the hitboxes to ever be the same.

Then the obvious answer is to just give them the same hitboxes as the Spartans. And the last part can be addressed by using the Reach models, I tested it, and they actually had the exact same hitbox, just bigger.

  1. Ok, but it would cost 343 to much resources to make them playable, Sangheili usually dont get as much armor as Spartans do, and the Sangheili community is to small to warrant anything.

I actually find it to be a waste of resources for 343 to not put them in; they make all these armors and models for them in the campaign yet they dont put those same models in multiplayer. And besides, it would also be worth it if they actually gave the Sangheili just as much customization options as Spartans, as that was one of the main things that was turning off players from playing as them, so if they empower the sanghieli community, then aformentioned community will grow bigger, thus it would be resources well spent.

  1. If there was a Sangheili community in the first place, then where were they the whole time I was playing Halo 2/3?

The Sangheili community tends to reserve themselves to custom games and campaign, as the lot of us usually tend to be lore nuts.

  1. But Sangheili players tend to be children that are bad at the game.

That is a sweeping generalization, in fact, some of the better players I have met were Sangheili fans.

  1. Well, the Sangheili community has been really rude to 343 lately and are acting entitled!

Can you blame them? They haven’t really seen any communication from 343, even when they were polite. Mosts of their posts and questions are just straight ignored or shot down, and 343 won’t give them a reason as to why they removed the Sangheili. And this has been going on for 3 years now. Besides, if you want to talk on terms of behaviour, then you should be dissatisfied with virtually every Halo sub-community, as each one has had it’s fair share of bashers, but those communities were never really punished for the actions of a few now, were they?

  1. “Spartan” abilities not “Elite” abilities.

Nomenclature should not dictate the canonical capabilities of a species. As far as I’m concerned, Sangheili are fully capable of sprinting, climbing, sliding, aiming, and charging. And last I heard, the Sangheili are several millenia ahead of humanity in technology, so equiping their armor with thrusters isn’t so far fetched. Besides, GI mentioned that the Halo 5 Sangheili were indeed using thrusters liberally, so this is not and shouldn’t be an issue.

Halo Online War Games = Anvil Station = ANVIL Initiative = Hunters in the Dark
H4 & H5 War Games = Infinity
Palmer is narrating Warzone which practically confirms this takes place on the Infifnity. So yes, Elites are probably not on a UNSC flagship. Plus Elites aren’t in MM for balancing issues I.e. Hitboxes and so on. As far as what I’ve heard many people complain about

What you say males sense but they are still fun to play as. In halo MCC I play as elites in all modes I can.

> 2533274881937413;2:
> Halo Online War Games = Anvil Station = ANVIL Initiative = Hunters in the Dark
> H4 & H5 War Games = Infinity
> Palmer is narrating Warzone which practically confirms this takes place on the Infifnity. So yes, Elites are probably not on a UNSC flagship. Plus Elites aren’t in MM for balancing issues I.e. Hitboxes and so on. As far as what I’ve heard many people complain about

Points 2,3, and 5 rebuke those arguements, and point 4 offers a compromise for the hitbox.

> 2533274822366750;1:
> Notice: Now before you say “not another one of THESE threads”, I created this post in another thread, and I thought that this warranted a thread of it’s own, especially considering it’s length. Below is a list of arguements that I commonly see against the reinclusion of Sangheili in multiplayer. They are all very poorly developed and short sighted, with solutions that are so obvious, that it makes me wonder how much attention people put into this subject when countering it.
>
> So I have typed up abridged versions of these arguements and have put in my counter-arguements against them. I hope with this, that I may spark a few lightbulbs in your heads, and for you to help meet a compromise on this increasingly dire issue. Let us begin:
>
> 1. Halo’s multiplayer is cannon now, and Sangheili wouldn’t be training or operating with Spartans:
> Actually, the Anvil Initiative says otherwise, and Hunters in the Dark’s plot revolves around a joint-Sangheili/Human operation. So the canon excuse is out the window.
> Are there any on the Infinity? Last I checked no. Thats where the games MP takes place.
>
> 2. No it isn’t, multiplayer is taking place on Infinity, not Anvil Station, and Sangheili would never be allowed on the UNSC’s flagship!
> Even if all of above is true, I find that where the exact location of the Holo-room is to be irrelevant. This can be resolved with an incredibly simple retcon.
> Then they complain about retconning
>
> 3. Well Sangheili are a foot taller than Spartans, so their height would disrupt balance.
> There’s quite a few compromises to this. First off, the Sangheili were actually the same height as Spartans in CE and 2, it wasn’t till Bungie hunched them over in 3 and put them on stilts in Reach that they became so tall. And even then, Sangheili have a much wider height range than humans do, with 7’ 4" Sangheili being as common as a 5’ 8" human male, which is more common than you would think.
> In the books they are bigger. A normal Elite was almost as strong as a Spartan in armor.
>
> 4. But I like Sangheili being taller than Spartans, it makes them unique and not a reskin. It also makes gametypes like invasion really enjoyable.
> I understand that, and my proposal to this is to make it so that we can customize each species’ traits indepently, including height/hitbox. In competitive game modes, they will be reskins of Spartans and in Invasion, they will have unique traits. Not only would this allow for equal starts in competitive, fun game modes like invasion, and restore a dying community, this will empower the creative side of the community, allowing us to create a much wide variety of game modes, make quality machinimas, and much more.
>
> 5. Well, theres still the problem with the poor hitboxes, that was really annoying, plus their anatomy is to weird for the hitboxes to ever be the same.
> Then the obvious answer is to just give them the same hitboxes as the Spartans. And the last part can be addressed by using the Reach models, I tested it, and they actually had the exact same hitbox, just bigger.
> Not the same hitbox if its bigger. Either they are made smaller going against canon for MP or there are different hitboxes.
> 6. Ok, but it would cost 343 to much resources to make them playable, Sangheili usually dont get as much armor as Spartans do, and the Sangheili community is to small to warrant anything.
> I actually find it to be a waste of resources for 343 to not put them in; they make all these armors and models for them in the campaign yet they dont put those same models in multiplayer. And besides, it would also be worth it if they actually gave the Sangheili just as much customization options as Spartans, as that was one of the main things that was turning off players from playing as them, so if they empower the sanghieli community, then aformentioned community will grow bigger, thus it would be resources well spent.
> Point
> 7. If there was a Sangheili community in the first place, then where were they the whole time I was playing Halo 2/3?
> The Sangheili community tends to reserve themselves to custom games and campaign, as the lot of us usually tend to be lore nuts.
> How does…Playing custom games make you more of a lore nuts? And campaign doesn’t have Elites as playable in it anyway. Or at least not as an option in any game.
>
> 8. But Sangheili players tend to be children that are bad at the game.
> That is a sweeping generalization, in fact, some of the better players I have met were Sangheili fans.
> First I have heard of this.
>
> 9. Well, the Sangheili community has been really rude to 343 lately and are acting entitled!
> Can you blame them? They haven’t really seen any communication from 343, even when they were polite. Mosts of their posts and questions are just straight ignored or shot down, and 343 won’t give them a reason as to why they removed the Sangheili. And this has been going on for 3 years now. Besides, if you want to talk on terms of behaviour, then you should be dissatisfied with virtually every Halo sub-community, as each one has had it’s fair share of bashers, but those communities were never really punished for the actions of a few now, were they?
> They did give a reason. It “wasn’t” canon for their multiplayer. Its unreasonable to expect them to answer every post when they have answered a few already.
>
> 10. “Spartan” abilities not “Elite” abilities.
> Nomenclature should not dictate the canonical capabilities of a species. As far as I’m concerned, Sangheili are fully capable of sprinting, climbing, sliding, aiming, and charging. And last I heard, the Sangheili are several millenia ahead of humanity in technology, so equiping their armor with thrusters isn’t so far fetched. Besides, GI mentioned that the Halo 5 Sangheili were indeed using thrusters liberally, so this is not and shouldn’t be an issue.
> Actually does. Differnet body make ups. Hinged legs would make climbing…Weird? Maybe? They’d have to animate all that for the game for it.
> They don’t actually make their own technology. Most of what they have they have reverse engineered from the Forerunners

Look. Im not saying you don’t have valid points. I’m also not saying they shouldn’t be in the game. I am…Pointing stuff out. Or something. Honestly I do not care.

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> > 2533274881937413;2:
> > Halo Online War Games = Anvil Station = ANVIL Initiative = Hunters in the Dark
> > H4 & H5 War Games = Infinity
> > Palmer is narrating Warzone which practically confirms this takes place on the Infifnity. So yes, Elites are probably not on a UNSC flagship. Plus Elites aren’t in MM for balancing issues I.e. Hitboxes and so on. As far as what I’ve heard many people complain about
>
>
> Points 2,3, and 5 rebuke those arguements, and point 4 offers a compromise for the hitbox.

Buddy, I just said if Palmer is present, it’s on the Infinity. Just like H4. Unless explicitly stated otherwise that H5 War Games is not on Infinity, it’s on Infinity. So no, no Elites on a UNSC warship

343i does need to come out and say why Elites are not being included in the multiplayer thus far. The ‘it breaks the lore’ argument became invaild since the reveal of ANVIL.
If balance is the issue then just tell us so the sangheili fans can get some assurance. I mean the reluctance to even say elites are not playable untill is really poor communication.
btw if you call me a 343i hater, i have supported 343i with some drastic changes and love the direction halo 5 is going. I was a kid when playing h3 and i loved being an elite and think its a shame they still are not back.

> 2533274816487930;7:
> 343i does need to come out and say why Elites are not being included in the multiplayer thus far. The ‘it breaks the lore’ argument became invaild since the reveal of ANVIL.
> If balance is the issue then just tell us so the sangheili fans can get some assurance. I mean the reluctance to even say elites are not playable untill is really poor communication.
> btw if you call me a 343i hater, i have supported 343i with some drastic changes and love the direction halo 5 is going. I was a kid when playing h3 and i loved being an elite and think its a shame they still are not back.

So far the ANVIL Initiative only takes place on the Anvil Station in Halo Online. H5 isn’t on the Anvil Station it’s on the infinity. There’s no Elites on a UNSC warship that’s on voyage. Maybe if it’s docked, but not when it’s in operations. A station is different than a ship

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>
>
> Buddy, I just said if Palmer is present, it’s on the Infinity. Just like H4. Unless explicitly stated otherwise that H5 War Games is not on Infinity, it’s on Infinity

Palmer isn’t going to be briefing the Spartans for EVERY excersise that they are doing. I’m pretty sure there are many different training sessions going on simultaneously, so the commentary is likely pre-recorded.

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> > Buddy, I just said if Palmer is present, it’s on the Infinity. Just like H4. Unless explicitly stated otherwise that H5 War Games is not on Infinity, it’s on Infinity
>
>
> Palmer isn’t going to be briefing the Spartans for EVERY excersise that they are doing. I’m pretty sure there are many different training sessions going on simultaneously, so the commentary is likely pre-recorded.

Its multiplayer. It’s like saying Jeff Steitzer isn’t at every online game announcing yet he’s still there with pre-recorded messages. Like I’ve said, unless 343 says otherwise, we’re back on the Infinity just like H4. As far as we, the in-game Spartan in concerned, yes, Palmer is there. Just like Spartan Ops

> 2533274881937413;2:
> Halo Online War Games = Anvil Station = ANVIL Initiative = Hunters in the Dark
> H4 & H5 War Games = Infinity
> Palmer is narrating Warzone which practically confirms this takes place on the Infifnity. So yes, Elites are probably not on a UNSC flagship. Plus Elites aren’t in MM for balancing issues I.e. Hitboxes and so on. As far as what I’ve heard many people complain about

But flood are on infinity? It is a simulation, they can take on the form of an elite, if we are going done the “lore” excuse path.

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>
> Its multiplayer. It’s like saying Jeff Steitzer isn’t at every online game announcing yet he’s still there with pre-recorded messages. Like I’ve said, unless 343 says otherwise, we’re back on the Infinity just like H4. As far as we, the in-game Spartan in concerned, yes, Palmer is there. Just like Spartan Ops

If you read point 2, then you would know that this can easily retconed without any negative repercussions.

> 2533274898131165;11:
> > 2533274881937413;2:
> > Halo Online War Games = Anvil Station = ANVIL Initiative = Hunters in the Dark
> > H4 & H5 War Games = Infinity
> > Palmer is narrating Warzone which practically confirms this takes place on the Infifnity. So yes, Elites are probably not on a UNSC flagship. Plus Elites aren’t in MM for balancing issues I.e. Hitboxes and so on. As far as what I’ve heard many people complain about
>
>
> But flood are on infinity? It is a simulation, they can take on the form of an elite, if we are going done the “lore” excuse path.

The flood aren’t on Infinity. Yes it’s a simulation but it’s one of those casual playlists. Just like Griffball is. Why would you be playing Griffball when you’re supposed to be training? You yourself are not a simulation. Only the environment is. You don’t have a virtual avatar to use while in War Games, you’re yourself in your suit of armor that’s why you cannot be an Elite, you’re not a simulation. All the casual gametypes can be assumed to be an exception. It’s one of those unranked for fun gametypes

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> > Its multiplayer. It’s like saying Jeff Steitzer isn’t at every online game announcing yet he’s still there with pre-recorded messages. Like I’ve said, unless 343 says otherwise, we’re back on the Infinity just like H4. As far as we, the in-game Spartan in concerned, yes, Palmer is there. Just like Spartan Ops
>
>
> If you read point 2, then you would know that this can easily retconed ithout ay negative repercussions.

Omg dude. Yes it can be retconned, has it been retconned? NO. So far we are on the Infinity unless explicitly stated by 343 that we are not on Infinity and we are somewhere else

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> Omg dude. Yes it can be retconned, has it been retconned? NO. So far we are on the Infinity unless explicitly stated by 343 that we are not on Infinity and we are somewhere else

Then you understand that your Infinity arguement wasn’t a viable one?

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> > Omg dude. Yes it can be retconned, has it been retconned? NO. So far we are on the Infinity unless explicitly stated by 343 that we are not on Infinity and we are somewhere else
>
>
> Then you understand that your Infinity arguement wasn’t a viable one?

Then you understand that your retconned argument isn’t valid? Because it hasn’t been retconned yet. You are seriously confusing me, you’re saying that it can be retconned (which it hasn’t) so therefore there should be Elites, but why would there be Elites on a UNSC ship? As of right now we’re on the Infinity because 343 hasn’t said that we’re not on the Infinity

> 2533274881937413;13:
> > 2533274898131165;11:
> > > 2533274881937413;2:
> > > Halo Online War Games = Anvil Station = ANVIL Initiative = Hunters in the Dark
> > > H4 & H5 War Games = Infinity
> > > Palmer is narrating Warzone which practically confirms this takes place on the Infifnity. So yes, Elites are probably not on a UNSC flagship. Plus Elites aren’t in MM for balancing issues I.e. Hitboxes and so on. As far as what I’ve heard many people complain about
> >
> >
> > But flood are on infinity? It is a simulation, they can take on the form of an elite, if we are going done the “lore” excuse path.
>
>
> The flood aren’t on Infinity. Yes it’s a simulation but it’s one of those casual playlists. Just like Griffball is. Why would you be playing Griffball when you’re supposed to be training? You yourself are not a simulation. Only the environment is. You don’t have a virtual avatar to use while in War Games, you’re yourself in your suit of armor that’s why you cannot be an Elite, you’re not a simulation. All the casual gametypes can be assumed to be an exception. It’s one of those unranked for fun gametypes

So, elites could be played in a simulation similar to the flood was my point. If you regard the casual playlists as not in the lore, we should also be able to play as elites for fun.

Elites don’t fit into 343’s vision of Halo multiplayer. 343 wants to focus on creating the player experience around what it means to be a Spartan. This is clearly shown with Spartan Abilities.

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> > > > Halo Online War Games = Anvil Station = ANVIL Initiative = Hunters in the Dark
> > > > H4 & H5 War Games = Infinity
> > > > Palmer is narrating Warzone which practically confirms this takes place on the Infifnity. So yes, Elites are probably not on a UNSC flagship. Plus Elites aren’t in MM for balancing issues I.e. Hitboxes and so on. As far as what I’ve heard many people complain about
> > >
> > >
> > > But flood are on infinity? It is a simulation, they can take on the form of an elite, if we are going done the “lore” excuse path.
> >
> >
> > The flood aren’t on Infinity. Yes it’s a simulation but it’s one of those casual playlists. Just like Griffball is. Why would you be playing Griffball when you’re supposed to be training? You yourself are not a simulation. Only the environment is. You don’t have a virtual avatar to use while in War Games, you’re yourself in your suit of armor that’s why you cannot be an Elite, you’re not a simulation. All the casual gametypes can be assumed to be an exception. It’s one of those unranked for fun gametypes
>
>
> So, elites could be played in a simulation similar to the flood was my point. If you regard the casual playlists as not in the lore, we should also be able to play as elites for fun.

Damn you got me in a corner here…uh…uh…

> 2533274833600810;18:
> Elites don’t fit into 343’s vision of Halo multiplayer. 343 wants to focus on creating the player experience around what it means to be a Spartan.

YES! Because of that ^

> 2533274833600810;18:
> Elites don’t fit into 343’s vision of Halo multiplayer. 343 wants to focus on creating the player experience around what it means to be a Spartan.

This.

Since my post was ignored…This