(Continuation Thread) What does ADS offer Halo?

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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I recommend skipping this first part if you just wish to get to the more flushed out topic. Going to try and keep this short and sweet too.

So after watching my original thread

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/6e35355aecdf4fd0acdaee3cc4156fd4/topics/what-does-ads-offer-halo/705c97b2-7651-45ea-94ed-9b4c64fb1e24/posts?page=4

gain alot more traction that I originally assumed, I decided to add another step to it, along with giving my perspective from a neutral POV.

First I’d like to say that It seems like the halo community is really divided with ADS. I’ve noticed three groups that are divided about the subjects of most Halo topic. Each group has subgroups in them but I don’t think going to deep into those is called for.

Canon-Those who argue if the changes are canon and should be in the game.
Identity-Those who argue what truly is Halo.
Balance-Those who argue what is best for the game.

Each of these takes a small part from the other. Identity takes from Canon, Balance takes from Identity and Canon thinks itself to be balanced. Looking at the three it seems like the Balance part of the community is what is looking out for what is best in Halo. I say this because they don’t care too much for what Halo is or if it’s canon but how a functioning game can be made. The balance players wouldn’t mind if 343i made a new Halo game with none of the weapons from before but as long as it is balanced it’s ok in their eyes.

Those who fight for Canon ignore what could be good or bad but as long as it’s in the books its okay to have in the games. Those who talk about identity are the furthest on the spectrum and get themselves confused with balance.

OG Players won’t see any change or any foreign implementation as viable and The New Blood refuse their roots not out of resentment but only because of repetition.

Balance is the one I agree with the most and seems to just be out to try and make a good game with the Halo name on it. So far I agree that balance of ADS without other elements hurts Halo because it takes certain weapons out of their niche. It mixes the peas and the mashed potatoes which Halo has always done pretty well. We’ve seen what can happen when a META weapon appears with DMR or DIE!

You can stop skipping now.

Thought I agree with Balance the most it has lead me here to make a second thread because balance goes beyond just the guns ability to scope in. In Halo 5 We will be having Spartan (and hopefully Elite) abilities along with, vehicles, varying map size, grenades and melee.

So the next part of the discussion is, how will ADS work in Halo with larger maps, vehicles, abilities and the rest of the Golden Triangle being thrown into the loop. While I’m sure the balance players have a solid topic to debate over I’m still very curios of what everyone else has to say. Identity has made some pretty good points and Canon, the weakest of the three still has made me think about certain implementations.

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In Halo fps games before Halo 5 it is almost completely useless to grab an AR… and it is a weapon that I aestheticly love, so I’m very happy for this improvement, it makes autos a valuable choice!

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> In Halo fps games before Halo 5 it is almost completely useless to grab an AR… and it is a weapon that I aestheticly love, so I’m very happy for this improvement, it makes autos a valuable choice!

I’ve seen people say this alot but a friend of mine I’ll just refer to as HG back in Halo 3 widely preferred the AR and used with with great success even out dueling BR/Carbine users. He keeps his love of Autos today and is actually for the change because he knows his time is now. Claim it’s his Golden Age.

People like him will only become more powerful when he was able to get to 45 just by his AR. I’ve also preferred the SMG since Halo 2 and gone just as far as he has with it. 343i is just buffing us and I liked the border that was given to us before. Our weapon wasn’t designed for every situation but the one it was in it excelled.

IMO 343i shouldn’t buff autos they should harder press precisions to their niche. Making it harder for them to fight up close but excel better in their range.

Edit: When I said he got to 45 I meant in terms of ranked playlist, not kills sorry for the confusion.

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with ads weapons (autos) Have become useful and actually worth using, and i simply won’t believe you’re friend played against any good players at all when he can get 45 kills with an ar so its either a lie or he’s just playing against not so great players or even intermediate players.

autos now have gotten their place in a spartans arsenal and before it wasn’t so that means it wasn’t balanced before but now in my personal opinion it feels balanced.

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> with ads weapons (autos) Have become useful and actually worth using, and i simply won’t believe you’re friend played against any good players at all when he can get 45 kills with an ar so its either a lie or he’s just playing against not so great players or even intermediate players.
>
> autos now have gotten their place in a spartans arsenal and before it wasn’t so that means it wasn’t balanced before but now in my personal opinion it feels balanced.

I believe he meant skill rank 45, not 45 kills.

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The problem before was that the weapon niches were miles apart from each other. Yeah, the AR could outgun the BR from less than 10 feet away, but that’s really friggin’ close, and the gun would be completely useless at any range longer than that. You had these guns that were only viable in extremely close quarters, then you had the all-purpose Battle Rifle which could pick people off from afar, and even hold its own in close quarters.

Halo 5 isn’t blending the niches together and making every gun viable in every scenario, it’s blurring the lines between the niches so there isn’t such an enormous gap between weapons. The AR is superior at close ranges, but can now hold its own up to medium ranges. The Battle Rifle is still an all-purpose beast, but if you’re closer than mid-range versus an AR, don’t expect the fight to go your way just for using a BR like it would have in older Halos.

So far, it looks like Halo 5 has the best weapon balance of any Halo. The niches are all still there, but there’s no such thing as a downright useless weapon like there was in the past (at least from the beta weapons we saw, obviously I can’t speak to the weapons that didn’t appear).

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I have to agree with previous statements about Automatics being useful at last. But I feel that the accuracy buff on autos when scoping is too big.

And I like the scope/holographic projection idea is neat visually especialy on AR. But yes I can agree that the BR scope feels somewhat used, not something fresh or so unique.

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  1. Balance is the most important. It’s not about equal pros and cons. It’s not about point for point give and takes in or outside of niches. It’s about empowering the player with the tools the need to have fun. Fun comes from exercising what’s called “viable options.”

Of the two people “shooting perfectly,” who do you think feels more empowered at this moment? Especially if we start to increase the distance and therefore spread potential, who has the viable option? The BR can miss a shot and still beat the AR with 5 and that is suppose to be the AR’ niche (mind you there is the SMG that does the job before a puurfect H3Br, but its spread lacks the AR’s range… Meaning a shotgun would do better!)
If it was MLG, the BR would be able to get a melee kill before the AR and if 'nades or teamshooting is used, the headshotting weapon has the HUGE advantage.
Average TTK is very important as it’s about missing 1 or 2 shots and still getting the kill in an average fight… But remember how MLG hated the 5-shot H4BR because it didn’t feel as satisfying as before? It felt like being robbed with all that effort only to have to continue the battle… Even though the average TTK was as good, even better than H3’s BR battles.
Well do consider the scoping fullautos as a similar concession to making the H4BR a 4-shot again. It’s about finding ways to make the players feel empowered by their actions while keeping balance.

(And I have an M6 in H5 to deal with anyone who thinks the AR was the better idea.)

  1. Identity is important. That is why descoping has returned and basemovement isn’t affected when zoomed are part of Smart Scope. It’s why H5 allows Spartan Abilities to be disabled.
    However if we are to adhere to extremely strict rules of identity… Between CE to H2, I’m not sure how much of an adherence to classic mechanics I could agree on.

  2. Lore is the filler. It’s great and immersive but it fills in the balance and identity holes, it doesn’t create them. If it makes you feel better;
    Smart Link is the neural link to weapon scopes.
    Smart Scope is the actual MJOLNIR VISR system overriding the SL.
    Spartans don’t hipfire and they already run, not sprint, around in an assault posture. Spartans free-fire for accurate but not exactly precise shooting. When scoping, Spartans hold their weapon with more focus for precise shooting… Meaning when free-firing, Spartans can shoot a fly. When focused, Spartans shoot the wings off the fly.

more examples of lore filling in the gaps;
For gameplay reasons, the SMG, AR, DMR and BR do not feature “fire select” options, nor can the AR or SMG headshot… For lore reasons, there are no lore reasons why in-game we use limited scopes, if at all, in the previous game.

For gameplay reasons, the BR and DMR have x2 and x3 scopes but in lore it is stated that they can see a target to be engaged up to 900m away.

In lore, VISR on ODST’s, which is a lesser system to MJOLNIR (As CH said “Their suit shows me all I need to see.”), can see the infrared signature of cloaked opponents but in-game and lore the Spartans cannot see cloaked enemies.

In lore (and Starry Night, H3 teaster), the Chief sprints with his weapon down but that “ability” doesn’t show up till a… Prequel in lore but sequel in gameplay… And its reason on the Mk.V suit is that Kat found a way to override the safeties in place to prevent injuries like the heel tearing the Chief induced when sprinting at full potential during his testing days and that’s why it wasn’t in CE.

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> IMO 343i shouldn’t buff autos they should harder press precisions to their niche. Making it harder for them to fight up close but excel better in their range.

Did you like Reach’s Vanilla DMR? And what playlist did this 45 get obtained in, Squad?

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> IMO 343i shouldn’t buff autos they should harder press precisions to their niche. Making it harder for them to fight up close but excel better in their range.

I would take the opposite approach. There should be overlap between weapons at different ranges. That’s why utility weapons in Halo have been so succesful: they’re versatile enough that it’s not detrimental for the player to run into a small room with a BR. Even at the chance that they end up in a close range encounter with a close range weapon, and are at a disadvantage, the disadvantage is just large enough that there’s a risk in the decision, but small enough that they have a chance to outplay the opponent, and overcome the risk.

Versatile weapons make the risk of getting out of the weapon’s comfort zone acceptable, because the player knows that they have a chance even if they run into the unfortunate encounter. When the risk is acceptable, players are more encouraged to move around the map, and the more players dare to move around the map, the more dynamic gameplay becomes. This is why I’ve always supported making automatic weapons more viable even in mid-range encounters. The important thing to understand here is that more viability shouldn’t equal easier to use, but the opposite. The more viable a weapon is, the more difficult it should be to use. That’s why the extreme versatility of precision weapons has always been justified: they’re much more difficult to use than automatics.

Automatics should be made viable at mid-range encounters, but in some meaningful way that makes them difficult to use. I believe this could be accomplished very naturally simply by decreasing their spread to be very thight, and making the red reticle range appropriately short, so that there’d be no aim assist at mid-range. This would hardly change gameplay at close range, but at mid-range–even though difficult–it would be possible for a player with a very good aim to outplay, say, a BR, but difficult due to no aim assist or scope.

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> The problem before was that the weapon niches were miles apart from each other. Yeah, the AR could outgun the BR from less than 10 feet away, but that’s really friggin’ close, and the gun would be completely useless at any range longer than that. You had these guns that were only viable in extremely close quarters, then you had the all-purpose Battle Rifle which could pick people off from afar, and even hold its own in close quarters.

I sort of agree here. I think 343 and even Bungie to an extent made mistakes when it came to weapons. They want a fun, casual, party game. They said so when they made CE, that it was a party game that anyone could pick up and play. The problem is that as the games progressed, they tried to make the game easier for people to get involved in and nerfed the weapons to where they weren’t a good mesh. Some weapons, like the autos in H2 were only viable if the player was dual wielding them and the AR in H3 was CQC, but a little too CQC. Like Shotgun range CQC, making it useless. H4 had the AR nearly perfect. It was powerful at close range, but outside of that, you’d get stomped.

The problem is they made all the weapons too easy to use by giving some like the Beam Rifle not only Aim Assist when you weren’t scoped in, but they also put crazy amounts of bullet magnetism on every weapon. This made all the precision weapons easier to use, thus making it less likely that the ARs were needed.

One thing H5 is doing right is they are actually making the precision weapons “difficult” to use. They aren’t impossible, but they have drastically lowered the Aim Assist. They however haven’t lowered the Bullet Magnetism which makes them still easy to use. This change alone would have made the ARs more viable, but they are taking them the extra step and making the ARs easier to use also. This is causing them to be far more powerful than they need to be. They could’ve used a little range boost from previous games, yes. I’m not denying that, but they shouldn’t be able to go toe to toe with a BR or other precision weapon because they aren’t a skillful weapon. The gun is too easy to shoot because there is no need to pace shots when you are scoped in. It’s unbalanced for the niche it’s supposed to fill. And I say the niche it’s supposed to fill based on other games the gun has been in.

If 343 wants to change the way the automatics play, then they should scrap the old weapons and create new ones. That’s what Bungie did when they created the DMR to replace the BR in Reach. People want things to follow Lore, then that’s the best way to do it. It makes no sense for the AR to now be some sort of bullet hose that all of a sudden can spray better than before when it’s being controlled by Spartans who are inferior to MC in all aspects; Size, strength, armor, and technology.

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> 2533274944243845;4:
> with ads weapons (autos) Have become useful and actually worth using, and i simply won’t believe you’re friend played against any good players at all when he can get 45 kills with an ar so its either a lie or he’s just playing against not so great players or even intermediate players.
>
> autos now have gotten their place in a spartans arsenal and before it wasn’t so that means it wasn’t balanced before but now in my personal opinion it feels balanced.

45 Halo 3 Ranked not kills.

Confused, why did you think I was talking about kills? That’s just crazy no matter who you are managing that in every single game.

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I’m a big proponent of letting the developer doing whatever the heck they want unless it impacts my fun. I have yet to stop having fun with Halo so as long as they keep that up they can change whatever they want in my eyes. This includes ADS. So no I can’t come up with a good argument for why they should add ADS into the game.

All I can say is that I do not care whatsoever.

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> 2533274810150284;6:
> The problem before was that the weapon niches were miles apart from each other. Yeah, the AR could outgun the BR from less than 10 feet away, but that’s really friggin’ close, and the gun would be completely useless at any range longer than that. You had these guns that were only viable in extremely close quarters, then you had the all-purpose Battle Rifle which could pick people off from afar, and even hold its own in close quarters.
>
> Halo 5 isn’t blending the niches together and making every gun viable in every scenario, it’s blurring the lines between the niches so there isn’t such an enormous gap between weapons. The AR is superior at close ranges, but can now hold its own up to medium ranges. The Battle Rifle is still an all-purpose beast, but if you’re closer than mid-range versus an AR, don’t expect the fight to go your way just for using a BR like it would have in older Halos.
>
> So far, it looks like Halo 5 has the best weapon balance of any Halo. The niches are all still there, but there’s no such thing as a downright useless weapon like there was in the past (at least from the beta weapons we saw, obviously I can’t speak to the weapons that didn’t appear).

Sucks a lot of the BR players complained about the AR actually having critical damage for headshots so much that 343 ending up taking away critical headshot damage from the Autos like the AR and SMG after the Beta :frowning:

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> > 2533274944243845;4:
> > with ads weapons (autos) Have become useful and actually worth using, and i simply won’t believe you’re friend played against any good players at all when he can get 45 kills with an ar so its either a lie or he’s just playing against not so great players or even intermediate players.
> >
> > autos now have gotten their place in a spartans arsenal and before it wasn’t so that means it wasn’t balanced before but now in my personal opinion it feels balanced.
>
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> I believe he meant skill rank 45, not 45 kills.

thats even harder to believe,

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> Sucks a lot of the BR players complained about the AR actually having critical damage for headshots so much that 343 ending up taking away critical headshot damage from the Autos like the AR and SMG after the Beta :frowning:

I agree that the AR did way too much damage in the beta. I would sometimes get outgunned from halfway across the map by an AR while I was using a BR, because of that headshot damage buff. It makes sense for the AR to not do much extra headshot damage because it takes zero skill to hit someone in the head with it, you could even just aim at the torso and the spread will send a few bullets to the guy’s head.

I would have been okay with the weapons staying the same (it just would have meant changing my game to account for the beasty AR), but I’m glad to hear that they’re doing some tweaking. Hopefully they don’t nerf the gun to oblivion, and we get an even better AR/BR balance in the full game.

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> I agree that the AR did way too much damage in the beta. I would sometimes get outgunned from halfway across the map by an AR while I was using a BR, because of that headshot damage buff. It makes sense for the AR to not do much extra headshot damage because it takes zero skill to hit someone in the head with it, you could even just aim at the torso and the spread will send a few bullets to the guy’s head.

Are you being fair to yourself or Halo?
Replace BR with DMR and then replace the AR with a BR. You get the similar situation of the DMR vs the BR and why the BR’s intentional spread is a double-edged sword for both getting headshots but also not reliably getting full damage per hit as distance increases.

So is it that you lost to the AR because of the damage buff or is it because you were sloppy and/or too risky?
Under everything being equal, connections being good, the AR can’t return scoped fire to the BR if being hit and its free-fire scope can’t be burst shot like H4 for unscoped control.

Being serious in questioning as the beta did have server and connection issues where some players experienced what they thought were super powerful enemy weapons but the reality was, they were on the wrong end of the connection issues.
A couple mods and ex-mods from here and I rolled through the beta for a few games and we noted quite quickly how there was a noticeable difference between 3 types of matches:

  1. Things seemed even. YAAAA!
  2. The enemy were Sponge Bobs in MJOLNIR taking our bullets with a smile.
  3. The enemy were using Tactical Training Rounds. They ran in fear from our weapons as theirs had little effect.
    And for myself, I tried SS on the AR for a couple games before I found I liked my M6 for almost anything, but not quite, everything I do with an AR but quickly/more efficiently.
    From then on, my AR was nearly exclusively free-fired and I rolled with 50% hit accuracy… And I will boast that I can more than hold my own for keeping my reticle on the enemy.

So to reword the question perhaps: Was it the damage buff that caused your death or was it that the AR user was in a superior position and you didn’t take a moment to re-coup?

Note: If the DpH of the H5AR was like H3’s, I would support a headshot damage multiplier as there was. As the DpH of the H5AR allows for a quicker unassisted kill than nearly every other loadout weapon (not the M6 ;), I do not support the headshot multiplier.

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ADS (and yes it’s ADS no matter how much you split hairs) doesn’t offer the game anything except making it more accessible to COD/Battlefield players.

They should have just revamped the classic scope to look really Sci Fi and represent what it might actually look like from the Spartan’s point of view as the suits visor links up with the weapon and assists their vision & targeting.

This would have taken something that was unique to Halo among all the other shooters & made it even MORE unique and would continue to be consistent with the lore.

Instead of going in a direction that further distinguishes halo from other shooters they caved in & followed the current trend.

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> > I agree that the AR did way too much damage in the beta. I would sometimes get outgunned from halfway across the map by an AR while I was using a BR, because of that headshot damage buff. It makes sense for the AR to not do much extra headshot damage because it takes zero skill to hit someone in the head with it, you could even just aim at the torso and the spread will send a few bullets to the guy’s head.
>
>
> Are you being fair to yourself or Halo?
> Replace BR with DMR and then replace the AR with a BR. You get the similar situation of the DMR vs the BR and why the BR’s intentional spread is a double-edged sword for both getting headshots but also not reliably getting full damage per hit as distance increases.
>
>
> So is it that you lost to the AR because of the damage buff or is it because you were sloppy and/or too risky?
> Under everything being equal, connections being good, the AR can’t return scoped fire to the BR if being hit and its free-fire scope can’t be burst shot like H4 for unscoped control.
>
>
> Being serious in questioning as the beta did have server and connection issues where some players experienced what they thought were super powerful enemy weapons but the reality was, they were on the wrong end of the connection issues.
> A couple trustworthy mods and ex-mods from here and I rolled through the beta for a few games and we noted quite quickly how there was a noticeable difference between 3 types of matches:
> 1) Things seemed even. YAAAA!
> 2) The enemy were Sponge Bobs in MJOLNIR taking our bullets with a smile.
> 3) The enemy were using Tactical Training Rounds. They ran in fear from our weapons as theirs had little effect.
>
> So to reword the question perhaps: Was it the damage buff that caused your death or was it that the AR user was in a superior position and you didn’t take a moment to re-coup?
>
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> Note: If the DpH of the H5AR was like H3’s, I would support a headshot damage multiplier as there was. As the DpH of the H5AR allows for a quicker unassisted kill than nearly every other loadout weapon (not the M6 ;), I do not support the headshot multiplier.

I get what your saying that personal incredulity let the automatic weapons being nerfed unjustly. But I do support some extra damage for the AR as it had a slightly lower Killtime than the H4 AR. It gives incentive to burst at longer distance and the “randomness” associated with it was overblown by people who could not figure out to descoped an AR at long range. Also, the bonuses are not gone, they have been reduced.
H4 AR killtime: 1.21 sec ( 13 bullets)
H5 Beta AR “flawless” killtime: 1.05 sec ( 10 bullets, all Headshots)
H5 Beta AR killtime: 1.26 sec (14 bullets, no headshots)

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> I get what your saying that personal incredulity let the automatic weapons being nerfed unjustly. But I do support some extra damage for the AR as it had a slightly lower Killtime than the H4 AR. It gives incentive to burst at longer distance and the “randomness” associated with it was overblown by people who could not figure out to descoped an AR at long range. Also, the bonuses are not gone, they have been reduced.
> H4 AR killtime: 1.21 sec ( 13 bullets)
> H5 Beta AR “flawless” killtime: 1.05 sec ( 10 bullets, all Headshots)
> H5 Beta AR killtime: 1.26 sec (14 bullets, no headshots)

And will note on those stats, the headshot multiplier only applied to the unshield head. It’s wasn’t like Destiny where every headshot is a “critical hit.”

And I too prefer the the H4/H5 DpH’s. I don’t use fullautos, I use precisions like fullautos. But I’d also like to know the “real” fullautos have a fighting chance.
With Halo3, I might have been happy with sprint and SS being present as to allow the AR to get 'vantages on the BR and Sniper that were inherently there for those weapons unscoped… AND THEN the BR would be able to pressure the sniper more on BTB maps… AND THEN the dual wielding weapons might have been stronger!!!
However, I am super happy with H4 and H5 as far as potential time to kill goes on the fullautos. With sprint and H4’s bloom control and H5’s sprint and SS, there’s ways to use that potential to get farther than just CQB kills and in CQB, one can actually spray and pray against those not using their chosen weapon with skill. In other words, I feel H4 on, the fullautos have a personal bubble that can be popped but is risky while they can pop a short ranged bubble on other weapons if those other weapons aren’t used intelligently.

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> > I get what your saying that personal incredulity let the automatic weapons being nerfed unjustly. But I do support some extra damage for the AR as it had a slightly lower Killtime than the H4 AR. It gives incentive to burst at longer distance and the “randomness” associated with it was overblown by people who could not figure out to descoped an AR at long range. Also, the bonuses are not gone, they have been reduced.
> > H4 AR killtime: 1.21 sec ( 13 bullets)
> > H5 Beta AR “flawless” killtime: 1.05 sec ( 10 bullets, all Headshots)
> > H5 Beta AR killtime: 1.26 sec (14 bullets, no headshots)
>
>
> And will note on those stats, the headshot multiplier only applied to the unshield head. It’s wasn’t like Destiny where every headshot is a “critical hit.”
>
> And I too prefer the the H4/H5 DpH’s. I don’t use fullautos, I use precisions like fullautos. But I’d also like to know the “real” fullautos have a fighting chance.
> With Halo3, I might have been happy with sprint and SS being present as to allow the AR to get 'vantages on the BR and Sniper that were inherently there for those weapons unscoped… AND THEN the BR would be able to pressure the sniper more on BTB maps… AND THEN the dual wielding weapons might have been stronger!!!
> However, I am super happy with H4 and H5 as far as potential time to kill goes on the fullautos. With sprint and H4’s bloom control and H5’s sprint and SS, there’s ways to use that potential to get farther than just CQB kills and in CQB, one can actually spray and pray against those not using their chosen weapon with skill. In other words, I feel H4 on, the fullautos have a personal bubble that can be popped but is risky while they can pop a short ranged bubble on other weapons if those other weapons aren’t used intelligently.

That is actually not true. All weapons except the BR did increase damage to the head on a shielded opponent. The pistol and light rifle for example did slightly more shield damage when aimed at the head. But the lack of bleed thorught made it so that there was a set amount of shots needed to break shields.
I perfer the Halo 5 reticule with a more controllable bloom rate and no recoil when not in smart link. H4’s AR bloom was a little too heavy and expanded too quickly. But it’s accruacy was increased and aim assist was decreased after the patch.
Oh and thanks for the reminder of H3 terrible weapon balance. I was just about to rant about that.