for the past few weeks I couldn’t help but notice the increasing conflict between Pros / competitive players and the casual community. I think this conflict is based on a few misunderstandings and I’m worried that if we continue this way it will be devastating for the Halo community as a whole. So here’s my take on this…
To the competitive community:
We don’t need a game that’s built for competitive play. Halo 1, 2 and 3 were not games built for competitive play (according to Bungie). We need a game with really good mechanics, gunplay and maps + 1 playlist that is customized for competitive play (just like it has been in the past with the Hardcore / MLG playlists). Please stop blaming the casual community for H5’s failures.
To the casual community:
The assumption that H5 isn’t fun because it was built for competitive play is simply wrong. I’m aware that 343 have stated many times that it was built for comp play but I assure you I have not seen a single tweet, post or video from any pro or comp player asking for autos, radar, spartan abilities, etc…In other words, the comp community never asked 343 to build H5 the way it was built. Therefore please don’t blame the competitive community for H5’s failures.
To all:
The casual and competitive community can co-exist, they NEED to co-exist if we want to grow the scene. It has been done before, it can be done again (not with H5). The truth is H5 turning out the way it did isn’t any community’s fault, it’s 343 inability to deliver a game that is easy accessible for casuals and at the same time provides a great experience for competitive players. This simple formular is the reason why H1 - H3 were so beloved, why COD, Overwatch, CS:GO, Fortnite, etc…are so successful. My point is: We need to stop blaming each other, we need to stop the comp and casual community from splitting any further.
Well, it was built for competitive play. It’s the reason most of the maps are symmetrical and lackluster. I mean, I get it, competitively you need as even a playing field as possible. But that doesn’t automatically make the game less fun. We do need better maps in my opinion, more varied environments, not 10 maps that are duplicate space station themed.
What makes it less fun is the fact you can’t play any sort of ranked match on an even playing field, because the community is so muddled with smurfs. My team shouldn’t be getting beat 50-15 in a Silver 5 slayer matchup, it’s as simple as that. As a result, people associate this with the competitive community and hold resentment towards it. I was never much of a ranked player anyway, so it doesn’t really bother me, but I can see full well why people are unhappy.
> 2533274821761464;2:
> Well, it was built for competitive play. It’s the reason most of the maps are symmetrical and lackluster. I mean, I get it, competitively you need as even a playing field as possible. But that doesn’t automatically make the game less fun. We do need better maps in my opinion, more varied environments, not 10 maps that are duplicate space station themed.
>
> What makes it less fun is the fact you can’t play any sort of ranked match on an even playing field, because the community is so muddled with smurfs. My team shouldn’t be getting beat 50-15 in a Silver 5 slayer matchup, it’s as simple as that. As a result, people associate this with the competitive community and hold resentment towards it. I was never much of a ranked player anyway, so it doesn’t really bother me, but I can see full well why people are unhappy.
Hmm, symmetrical maps don’t mean it’s built for comp play imo. Smurfing is a big problem, I agree. The question is why do people play on smurfs? I think the problem is caused by the ranking system and the lack of social 4v4. Skill matching has been bad from launch, team matching never existed. As a result people smurf when they SoloQ cause they don’t wanna lose their rank playing unfair matches. But again, it’s not the comp community’s fault. If matchmaking is good, there’s no reason to smurf imo.
They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> 2533274843634673;4:
> They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
true. I hope they’re happy now with their 1k viewers (on a good day) on twitch lol
> 2533274843634673;4:
> They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
Also I’m wondering…what is it in your opinion that makes H5 so super competitive? Cause I just don’t see it.
> 2535438311530136;6:
> > 2533274843634673;4:
> > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
>
> See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
>
> H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
>
> Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
>
> BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
Because money and competitive, yes. And even BTB, which is supposed to be more “casual”, is loaded with entire tryhard teams going around slaughtering newbies.
> 2533274907200114;7:
> > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> >
> > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> >
> > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> >
> > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> >
> > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
>
> Because money and competitive, yes.
> 2533274907200114;7:
> > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> >
> > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> >
> > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> >
> > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> >
> > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
>
> Because money and competitive, yes. And even BTB, which is supposed to be more “casual”, is loaded with entire tryhard teams going around slaughtering newbies.
So what’s your point? If you lose a game to a team that’s better then your’s the game sucks?
> 2535438311530136;8:
> > 2533274907200114;7:
> > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > >
> > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > >
> > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > >
> > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > >
> > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> >
> > Because money and competitive, yes.
>
> I don’t get it.
They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
And they couldnt even do BTB right because they got rid of the stuff that made it casual. SOMEHOW, somehow they turned what is supposed to be the most relaxed gametype in Halo (bar perhaps Action Sack) and made it into a bigger, less equal version of Arena.
> 2533274907200114;10:
> > 2535438311530136;8:
> > > 2533274907200114;7:
> > > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > > >
> > > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > > >
> > > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > > >
> > > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > > >
> > > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> > >
> > > Because money and competitive, yes.
> >
> > I don’t get it.
>
> They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
> Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
Ok I get it now. I 100% agree with you on Warzone = money.
> 2533274907200114;10:
> > 2535438311530136;8:
> > > 2533274907200114;7:
> > > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > > >
> > > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > > >
> > > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > > >
> > > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > > >
> > > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> > >
> > > Because money and competitive, yes.
> >
> > I don’t get it.
>
> They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
> Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
>
> And they couldnt even do BTB right because they got rid of the stuff that made it casual. SOMEHOW, somehow they turned what is supposed to be the most relaxed gametype in Halo (bar perhaps Action Sack) and made it into a bigger, less equal version of Arena.
Dude we’re saying the same thing. My point is the competitive community is not to blame for this. 343 turned BTB into what it is.
> 2535438311530136;11:
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> > > 2535438311530136;8:
> > > > 2533274907200114;7:
> > > > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > > > >
> > > > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > > > >
> > > > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> > > >
> > > > Because money and competitive, yes.
> > >
> > > I don’t get it.
> >
> > They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
> > Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
>
> Ok I get it now. I 100% agree with you on Warzone = money.
Exactly. If there hadn’t been money involved, it, too, would have been competitive in design.
I think it was SUPPOSED to be the thing that casual people went too to escape the mess that was competitive…only to realize, oh right, GIVING A COMPETITIVE PERSON A BETTER WEAPON THAN YOU IS A BAD IDEA.
> 2533274907200114;13:
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> > > 2533274907200114;10:
> > > > 2535438311530136;8:
> > > > > 2533274907200114;7:
> > > > > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Because money and competitive, yes.
> > > >
> > > > I don’t get it.
> > >
> > > They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
> > > Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
> >
> > Ok I get it now. I 100% agree with you on Warzone = money.
>
> Exactly. If there hadn’t been money involved, it, too, would have been competitive in design.
> I think it was SUPPOSED to be the thing that casual people went too to escape the mess that was competitive…only to realize, oh right, GIVING A COMPETITIVE PERSON A BETTER WEAPON THAN YOU IS A BAD IDEA.
Again, I agree 100%. Which is why the competitive community needs 1 playlist they have control of. Not the whole game, just 1 playlist.
> 2535438311530136;14:
> > 2533274907200114;13:
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> > > > 2533274907200114;10:
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> > > > > > 2533274907200114;7:
> > > > > > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > > > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > > > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because money and competitive, yes.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t get it.
> > > >
> > > > They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
> > > > Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
> > >
> > > Ok I get it now. I 100% agree with you on Warzone = money.
> >
> > Exactly. If there hadn’t been money involved, it, too, would have been competitive in design.
> > I think it was SUPPOSED to be the thing that casual people went too to escape the mess that was competitive…only to realize, oh right, GIVING A COMPETITIVE PERSON A BETTER WEAPON THAN YOU IS A BAD IDEA.
>
> Again, I agree 100%. Which is why the competitive community needs 1 playlist they have control of. Not the whole game, just 1 playlist.
So…basically like how it was back in 3 and Reach, to a certain extent? Im pretty sure 343 got that loud and clear.
Well, if you’re gonna take on a topic then take on a big one.
I agree inasmuch as I think 343 made a huge mistake in optimising the H5 platform for competitive play. I understand why they did it, but that doesn’t change the fact (as you stated) that the most competitive Halo ever (Halo 3) wasn’t built to be competitive. Build the game for gamers and the let the competitive players take to it or go somewhere else. As soon as you start actively courting them then you have forces at work altering the game in ways that will produce another population exodus just like we had in Halo 4. That game drove away competitive players, and this one imo drives away casuals.
And anyone who thinks that the only difference between a casual game and competitive game is whether or not you have a dedicated, customized playlist… is wrong. The enormous skill gap in this game could only have been conceived of as a must-have by the sweatiest of players. And that’s altering the very fabric of your game to cater to a very small minority. I could be wrong when I say that’s the reason this game has such a small population, but if I am then so too are all the people that said H4’s population shrank to nothing beause of its anti-competitive loadouts and weapon drops.
> 2533274907200114;15:
> > 2535438311530136;14:
> > > 2533274907200114;13:
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> > > > > 2533274907200114;10:
> > > > > > 2535438311530136;8:
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> > > > > > > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > > > > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because money and competitive, yes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don’t get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
> > > > > Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
> > > >
> > > > Ok I get it now. I 100% agree with you on Warzone = money.
> > >
> > > Exactly. If there hadn’t been money involved, it, too, would have been competitive in design.
> > > I think it was SUPPOSED to be the thing that casual people went too to escape the mess that was competitive…only to realize, oh right, GIVING A COMPETITIVE PERSON A BETTER WEAPON THAN YOU IS A BAD IDEA.
> >
> > Again, I agree 100%. Which is why the competitive community needs 1 playlist they have control of. Not the whole game, just 1 playlist.
>
> So…basically like how it was back in 3 and Reach, to a certain extent? Im pretty sure 343 got that loud and clear.
Exactly like that. After 2 years of H5 I’m not so sure they got that loud and clear:)
> 2535438311530136;17:
> > 2533274907200114;15:
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> > > > 2533274907200114;13:
> > > > > 2535438311530136;11:
> > > > > > 2533274907200114;10:
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> > > > > > > > 2533274907200114;7:
> > > > > > > > > 2535438311530136;6:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274843634673;4:
> > > > > > > > > > They built the game very much for competitive play. Let’s remember how Forge and BTB weren’t even in the game at launch. 343 was upset that H4 was dropped by mlg and so they overcompensated with trying to make H5 super competitive.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > See, we’re having another misunderstanding. 343 built the game for what was their idea of competitive play, I’m not denying that. What I’m saying is that their idea of comp play is obviously very different from the pro’s idea of it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > H4 wasn’t dropped by MLG cause it wasn’t even picked up by MLG. They had 1 tourney and it was an exhibition tournament before launch.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Forge wasn’t in the game (along with many other features) cause they released it too early.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > BTB wasn’t in the game cause they focused on Warzone.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Because money and competitive, yes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don’t get it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They focused on Warzone because it would get them money via REQ packs (which MS wanted). They focused on Arena and left BTB out because it was exactly what they didnt want; too open and too unbalanced for competitive play.
> > > > > > Money and competitive. Thats whats driven Halo 5 since now and what will keep driving it. Just take a look at the store tournaments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok I get it now. I 100% agree with you on Warzone = money.
> > > >
> > > > Exactly. If there hadn’t been money involved, it, too, would have been competitive in design.
> > > > I think it was SUPPOSED to be the thing that casual people went too to escape the mess that was competitive…only to realize, oh right, GIVING A COMPETITIVE PERSON A BETTER WEAPON THAN YOU IS A BAD IDEA.
> > >
> > > Again, I agree 100%. Which is why the competitive community needs 1 playlist they have control of. Not the whole game, just 1 playlist.
> >
> > So…basically like how it was back in 3 and Reach, to a certain extent? Im pretty sure 343 got that loud and clear.
>
> Exactly like that. After 2 years of H5 I’m not so sure they got that loud and clear:)
Just because they haven’t said anything to us doesnt mean they haven’t listened.
They’re bringing in the art director for Halo Wars 2 for Halo 6…so we should have the “original” art design back. And they got rid of Brian Reed…
> 2533274873843883;16:
> Well, if you’re gonna take on a topic then take on a big one.
>
> I agree inasmuch as I think 343 made a huge mistake in optimising the H5 platform for competitive play. I understand why they did it, but that doesn’t change the fact (as you stated) that the most competitive Halo ever (Halo 3) wasn’t built to be competitive. Build the game for gamers and the let the competitive players take to it or go somewhere else. As soon as you start actively courting them then you have forces at work altering the game in ways that will produce another population exodus just like we had in Halo 4. That game drove away competitive players, and this one imo drives away casuals.
>
> And anyone who thinks that the only difference between a casual game and competitive game is whether or not you have a dedicated, customized playlist… is wrong. The enormous skill gap in this game could only have been conceived of as a must-have by the sweatiest of players. And that’s altering the very fabric of your game to cater to a very small minority. I could be wrong when I say that’s the reason this game has such a small population, but if I am then so too are all the people that said H4’s population shrank to nothing beause of its anti-competitive loadouts and weapon drops.
I agree with most of what you say. I also don’t think that the only difference between a casual and a competitive game is 1 customized playlist. But it can help making the game more competitive for the pros (removing radar, removing autos, weapon positioning, power weapon ammo, etc…).
> 2535438311530136;19:
> > 2533274873843883;16:
> >
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> I agree with most of what you say. I also don’t think that the only difference between a casual and a competitive game is 1 customized playlist. But it can help making the game more competitive for the pros (removing radar, removing autos, weapon positioning, power weapon ammo, etc…).
I would give the pros their “pro space,” but I would argue that by endowing H5 with such a wide skill gap that 343 has, in a very real sense, already made the entire game into a pro space. By all means, give the pros their playlist, but don’t let your in-house pro team drive the most basic of design decisions such make the game harder and make the learning curve steeper and make the guns exponentially more difficult to aim even if it represents a complete break with Halo tradition and defies any sense of internal logic.