I’m not saying they need to be equal, but this gap is absurd. Average controller is near top of KBM. That’s not going go over well for KBM.
Soooooo, does anything you say actually refute it? Or are you just gonna try to say that whatever I say is wrong because I don’t agree?
Can you actually deny anything I am saying?
Players who have been playing Halo for decades on controller are of course going to be more accurate than the even the best PC players because they are far newer or less experienced with the game. That’s what is scewing these percentage that all the K&M people are crying about.
Best yet, give us the option to opt out of crossplay and let’s see how long until you can’t get anymore matches?
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I agree with this. The only exception would be ranked. But there you can turn off cross plat, can’t you?
I’ve already given my opinion on this thread, and many others for that matter.
The “Controller players have been playing so much longer and have more experience” argument has been used so many times before and typically comes from people who’ve never even bothered to try the opposite input, and therefore lacks wisdom.
Instead of refuting your opinion, how about you go play 30-40 games with MKB (in open matchmaking), then we can talk.
Interesting work. Can I discuss some possible inprovements with you via PM if you are available?
I don’t necessarily think it lack wisdom. If we the average controller player has more experience playing the game than the average keyboard and mouse user, then we aren’t comparing players with similar backgrounds, hence it is hard to make a general statement about performance of users with the same level of experience with their preferred input devices. That isn’t to say the data is inaccurate, rather, it makes it hard to apply data like this to users with similar experience levels.
Also, the play 30-40 games with MKB won’t give us an accurate impression either, because it would be expected that someone with years of experience with Halo on controller would do better relatively speaking with a controller than MKB. Hence, them performing poorly upon switching wouldn’t be indicative of a discrepancy in balance between input devices. It could be just as likely chalked up to their lack of experience with MKB.
Notice, I’m not claiming there isn’t any advantage. I just don’t think the data controls for enough variables to make a general statement using it.
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It’s still not an aimbot.
You don’t even know what an aimbot is, clearly.
You can stay off the forums now.
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Posting what I posted in the other thread.
I’ve been playing mouse and keyboard since Infinite dropped but I made the switch to controller last night finally and spent an hour or so getting used to it again against the bots. After that, I was easily hitting 50-60% accuracy in games whereas I’d stay around 42-45% on M&KB, which tracked almost exactly with the discrepancy between ranked players on each input.
The game has a frankly absurd amount of aim assist that will noticeably jerk the reticule around when multiple targets cross it. However, much worse are the sizes of the hitboxes/hurtboxes with various weapons. On controller, you can fire shots with things like the BR or Sidekick that are pretty heavily off-center, yet you’ll still register a full hit. On mouse and keyboard, your reticule needs to hew noticeably closer to the target to register the full hit.
The overall effect is that when you play controller, you can basically just get on target and then use your strafe to track your enemy while letting the aim assist keep you on target. Provided that you’re within red reticule range.
There are two potential solutions to this. The first would be to trim down the size of the hurtboxes on controller and require controller players to be more on target to register a hit. The second would be to expand mouse and keyboard hurtboxes so that while they would still not have “sticky aim”, they would have a slightly higher margin of error when tracking a target. The second is the approach Destiny 2 uses.
That is all fine and well if the argument included overall Halo skill, but this is exclusively an aim issue.
And there is no evidence to suggest that players that want to play on MKB are “inexperienced” in either Halo or aiming in shooters. That is an assumption. Ofc almost every single piece of data on this issue has been argued to be too anecdotal.
Tbh the best piece of data I need is just how contentious and vocal people have been. This problem has been present in every single MCC PC release, and people were vocal then too. If there are this many people telling you its a problem, then it probably is. And if you’ve never bothered to try it, how can you even argue against them?
One thing I really don’t understand is how people act like MKB is this completely foreign device. You literally point at people and shoot. Everyone knows how to use a mouse. Obviously there will be an adjustment period, but just try it out for a bit and see how aiming feels, you’ll immediately see the difference, its not that nuanced. And its not difficult to set it up, Xbox can use MKB.
At the very least, try it against bots. If you don’t know what Halo feels like on a mouse, or without aim assist, how can you offer any reasonable resistance against what MKB players are saying?
I hate to use this comparison, but its like a privileged person from a privileged group, living around all privileged people, telling people who claim to be underprivileged to simply work harder. Or attempting to find explanations as to why they’re deserving of their privilege. Or convincing themselves that they earned their privilege; that they simply played the game of life better than their underprivileged counterparts.
Aim is likely influenced by experience, so experience matters.
I said if. Of course it is an assumption. If I was so sure it were true I wouldn’t have said if. However, given it is plausible, I think we certainly should be taking user experience into account. Actually, even if it weren’t likely, I think we should take experience into account, it just gives us more reason to.
I have tried playing with MKB, and I’m not as good with it. But in general I’m not as good with MKB, so I have a hard time using my experience to say anything meaningful. If I had equal experience with controller and MKB, then me trying MKB would probably be more relevant.
Also, there are plenty of people on consoles complaining about PC users in Infinite. The problem goes both ways. And if you’re just going off of people being vocal about it, then it seems both controller players and MKB have the advantage. But they both can’t have the advantage, which is why it’s not the best idea to just use people’s complaints.
It’s not difficult to understand how to use, sure. But to get the level of experience and comfortability that you have with it that you do with an input device you’ve been using for over 20 years will take time, no?
Most of what I’ve been saying is I don’t find the data presented convincing. I’m not saying the claim is necessarily wrong, I’m saying I’m not convinced. I’ve provided reasons why I don’t find the data convincing. And in any case, the burden of proof is on the person making a claim. Which isn’t me.
It’s not the same at all, because you can use a controller and I can use a MKB. We aren’t talking about being in positions of privilege. We’re talking about how people’s choices impact gameplay. I don’t believe MKB users are underprivileged. You can use a controller. A person with no legs can’t choose to walk on two legs. A person who is black can’t choose to not experience racism. A woman can’t choose for men to respect her the same as they would men. A MKB user can choose to use a controller. It’s not the same.
Also, what’s wrong with having playlists based on input device? That way if you think there is an issue, you can choose not to play with controller players. You have options, hence I’m willing to not be more critical of the data presented that I would be of someone claiming racism, for example.
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I dont have time for an extended piece by piece response but…
It’s not just the data in a vacuum. Its the litany of user experiences, forum posts, and videos made on the topic dating back to Reach PC. I think this issue has been adequately proven beyond a reasonable doubt, not by me, but by the community collectively.
343 actually agreed in the past. They gave players IBMM in MCC, despite REALLY not wanting to. But it was way too late by the time they offered it, the MKB players moved on, they had other shooters to play.
343 had to see this coming. I know they wanted to “give it another shot” to see if they could fairly balance these things, but they can’t. They were smart to separate them in ranked, but they should have known that wouldn’t be enough.
People deserve a fast response and a fast solution this time around. Its already built into the game, and 343 already knows there is disparity.
Building upon your race example (I was previously referencing economic disadvantage mostly) saying “simply switch to controller” feels to me like asking a black person to act more white if they want to find success.
We’re not talking about Reach./MCC Players on controller seem to suggest aim assist was toned down in Infinite, hence past claims don’t necessarily apply.
That’s ignorant in my opinion. A black person can’t act away the color of their skin. You can choose to use a different input device in a video game. It’s not really the same as all. We’re talking about a game. And I know, it should be fun and fair for everyone, but you can’t really compare it to discrimination people experience in their everyday lives, without seeming, at least to me, ignorant. As a woman, no matter how I act some men aren’t going to give me the same respect they do men. It doesn’t matter how I act. They won’t do it. You can choose to use a different input device. Also, I mentioned as well having the option to restrict play based on input device. You do realize that lowering aim assist will make the game less fun for controller user correct? It’s not something so easy to balance, so I don’t see a problem with restricting play based on input device if you don’t want to use a different input device.
Also, you have to understand the context behind why I said that. You have the option to use a controller. I never said to use it. I did say that because you have that option, it isn’t the same as being part of an underprivileged minority group. And because it’s not the same, I’m okay with being more critical of the data presented. This is a video game, you can play with different input devices. There is a potential solution in having optional play based on input device. This isn’t the same as being underprivileged. Accept it, you’re not underprivileged because you choose play with a mouse and Keyboard in a video game. I’m okay with being critical of the data here.
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The option to use a controller in order to aim better in a game that is intended to be balanced, competitive, and support both devices equally is not an option.
And the fact that 343 separated the inputs in ranked and previous entries is already an acknowledgement that there is disparity. Both in this game and previous ones.
So forcing them together in quick play was a mistake. The data presented wasn’t even needed to prove anything. Just further evidence.
And the controller in this case is literally privileged by definition. That privilege being aim assist.
The motivation for forcing players together is obvious: a bigger pool of players, all playing together on both platforms. But the consequences of that decision (if it doesn’t work) is far more severe than the benefits, and we’ve seen that with the MCC
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Without aim assist I personally 9-1 every single Controller pro without even trying. The devs can literally lower your difficulty for me. Your aim is completely tied to what they want you to be capable of. It’s not a real thing.
In your position I’d be chugging that copium too.
It is an option. You don’t have to prefer it, but it is an option.
Previous entries aren’t indicative of this game.
I never disagreed. In fact, I said that an option to separate based on input should be considered. On this matter we agree.
I am fine with using it as evidence to support it being a good idea to separate based on input device. Well, at least the option for it. I wouldn’t want it forced. Some of my friends use a different input device than me.
So you are trying to say you’re underprivileged then? Because if we’re going that route, then I’d say having better aim without aim assist is a privilege of KBM. I’d say better strafing is a privilege. I’d say being able to turn much faster is a privilege, in particular with relation to vehicles. The input devices have different strengths and weaknesses. I don’t think privilege is the right term to apply here though, because everyone has the privilege to use either input device. That’s part of why I think privilege is the wrong word to use here.
MCC is a different game, so i don’t think it’s proof. But still, I do think they should have put in an option to separate based on input device.
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Calling me privileged? Dude Halo Infinite is the first proper halo title with pc support. We’ve been here way longer than you have.
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Bro shut up. If you’re just going to cry about inputs instead of getting better at the game, maybe you need to play something else.
Or turn crossplay off.
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I can do two things.
The accuracy statistics provided aren’t that meaningful because they assume that there are equivalent numbers of controller and K&M players… You cannot compare the top 100 players from both inputs and have that be meaningful when the total number of controller players could dwarf the number of K&M players. You have to compare the top x% of both input methods.
For instance, if we have 100,000 controller players and 5,000 K&M players, and the skill distribution is the same between the two inputs, then taking the top 100 from each gives you the top 0.1% of controller players and the top 2% of K&M. This means you’re comparing the extremely skilled 0.1% of controller players against a 20x larger skill range of K&M players.
Now, that said, there is still some indication that controller players have a slightly higher accuracy due to the max accuracy numbers, but this can only be said for controller against controller. Nothing can be definitively said of controller against K&M. This is because the data used doesn’t involve crossplay. Therefore, the accuracy differences could also be due to the ability to maneuver quickly on K&M making landing shots more difficult.
Whatever the case, I don’t particularly care about balance. I just want the game to feel good to as many players as possible. Right now, it just feels kinda meh on each input. On controller this is due to the minimal sensitivity range (10 is glacial for a max sensitivity) and the type of aim assist implementation (stronger tracking assistance focus as opposed to a wider sensitivity reduction zone). Then, K&M needs some level of tracking assistance. Lastly, give people the option to select input type on all game modes.
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I can see that you’ve said it’s from Halo Tracker, but how can you actually get this data? I tried to look it up and there aren’t any filters or sorting options available to get data out of it in any way like you’ve presented it so as far as I’m concerned I don’t believe your data because I can’t validate it.
How can you filter the leaderboards to see the top 100 players of an input type for accuracy? I simply don’t have those options available to me.
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