Classic vs modern demo.

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

There has been so much debate over which game style is better for the halo franchise, casual players saying class based and competitive players saying classic arena. Well instead of jumping on the forums and biting each others heads off over which style is best suited for halo why don’t we get some hard proof evidence of which game style is actually best.

Now personally I’m more for classic play style, that of halo 2 and 3, and I would love to play a halo made like that again. Halo 2 and 3 kept us all playing for years and years but the newest installments of the game haven’t really stuck with us… But I think it’s only fair to get a certain perspective of what’s popular.

if 300,000 people want to play a class based shooter (reach, halo 4) and 100,000 people want to play classic style (halo 2, halo 3) that would make it seem like class based is the way to go for sure, but my question is… for how long?.. Is it going to be a game we will all return to the store in 3 or 4 months because there was nothing to hold us to it or will it be like that of halo 2 where right before the servers were shutdown people banded together in custom games with people they didn’t even know just to keep the game alive as long as possible. Not to mention this was 7 years after the game had been released (if I remember the dates correctly). We don’t want a game with a population that will disappear within a year, we want a game that everyone wants to play all the time.

So I had an idea, to settle this massive debate I think demos of each style should be released and monitored. Now seeing as how it would be way to much work to make a whole new game for each style I think they should do this instead.

Use a halo 2 demo and like 1 or 2 of the medium sized maps with team slayer on it to see how many competitive players and casual players play it over the course of the time it’s out (maybe 2 or 3 months?) and I say a halo 2 demo because if a halo 3 demo was released to test this people may not get on it due to the fact that a lot of people have the actual game at home. So since a lot of people want to see halo 2 back online this could be a chance to play it one more time while also basically voting for which play style you would rather see.
And this would also help 343i in the fact that I’m sure there is a halo 2 demo floating around their studio somewhere and like I said before would keep them from having to design a demo to put this to the test.

Now for class based style
If 343i could maybe put together a play list on halo reach & halo 4 to help vote for class based style game play that is also monitored for the same period of time and at the same time to show which style you would rather play and since classic halo fans have an incentive to actually get on for this test (to get to play halo 2 again) I think that It is only fair that the fans of class based have an incentive too. If 343i made them a new map on both games (reach, halo 4) for free for them to get to play on a new map that’s free and also fight for the play style they want to see.

Now the way it should be determined is of course half by population but the other half should be loyalty. How many players played, how many games were played, how often did people quit out of matches and how much did each person play.
If you only look at for example how many matches got played …well… you could have had 50,000 games played. But how many people did it take? Did 50,000 people play 1 match? or did 1,000 people play 50 matches? Because if people only play a game for a short time before they get bored with it especially if the game was made for multiplayer and there is no population to play the game it’s going to crash and burn, so don’t forget that casual players may have numbers on us classic players but if they are not around after a short time… then you took the ideas and opinions of people who didn’t love the game and put them above people who want this game to live on forever, I think all these things should be watched if it is tested the way I’m proposing.

I know this was a lot of reading to do and I appreciate it if you took the time to read this, but I think this could help put this debate to rest and finally give the halo universe the best possible play style it needs to make it the best game series in the world.

Also I hope my opinions didn’t come off biased at all, I would like this test to be completely fair for both sides of the community and hope 343i considers my idea. Anyway thanks guys! See ya on the battle field!

2

And for anyone who doesn’t think it’s fair that classic players get a whole demo and class based only get a playlist, well that is because the class based games are still pretty new (especially compared to classic style) and it would make it easier for 343i to throw this together whereas they might over look this whole idea if it seems like way to much non-profitable work. Besides, be it a demo or playlist it should work the same for this test, so just thought I’d throw this out there.

3

> There has been so much debate over which game style is better for the halo franchise, casual players saying class based and competitive players saying classic arena. Well instead of jumping on the forums and biting each others heads off over which style is best suited for halo why don’t we get some hard proof evidence of which game style is actually best.
>
> Now personally I’m more for classic play style, that of halo 2 and 3, and I would love to play a halo made like that again. Halo 2 and 3 kept us all playing for years and years but the newest installments of the game haven’t really stuck with us… But I think it’s only fair to get a certain perspective of what’s popular.
>
> if 300,000 people want to play a class based shooter (reach, halo 4) and 100,000 people want to play classic style (halo 2, halo 3) that would make it seem like class based is the way to go for sure, but my question is… for how long?.. Is it going to be a game we will all return to the store in 3 or 4 months because there was nothing to hold us to it or will it be like that of halo 2 where right before the servers were shutdown people banded together in custom games with people they didn’t even know just to keep the game alive as long as possible. Not to mention this was 7 years after the game had been released (if I remember the dates correctly). We don’t want a game with a population that will disappear within a year, we want a game that everyone wants to play all the time.
>
> So I had an idea, to settle this massive debate I think demos of each style should be released and monitored. Now seeing as how it would be way to much work to make a whole new game for each style I think they should do this instead.
>
> Use a halo 2 demo and like 1 or 2 of the medium sized maps with team slayer on it to see how many competitive players and casual players play it over the course of the time it’s out (maybe 2 or 3 months?) and I say a halo 2 demo because if a halo 3 demo was released to test this people may not get on it due to the fact that a lot of people have the actual game at home. So since a lot of people want to see halo 2 back online this could be a chance to play it one more time while also basically voting for which play style you would rather see.
> And this would also help 343i in the fact that I’m sure there is a halo 2 demo floating around their studio somewhere and like I said before would keep them from having to design a demo to put this to the test.
>
> Now for class based style
> If 343i could maybe put together a play list on halo reach & halo 4 to help vote for class based style game play that is also monitored for the same period of time and at the same time to show which style you would rather play and since classic halo fans have an incentive to actually get on for this test (to get to play halo 2 again) I think that It is only fair that the fans of class based have an incentive too. If 343i made them a new map on both games (reach, halo 4) for free for them to get to play on a new map that’s free and also fight for the play style they want to see.
>
> Now the way it should be determined is of course half by population but the other half should be loyalty. How many players played, how many games were played, how often did people quit out of matches and how much did each person play.
> If you only look at for example how many matches got played …well… you could have had 50,000 games played. But how many people did it take? Did 50,000 people play 1 match? or did 1,000 people play 50 matches? Because if people only play a game for a short time before they get bored with it especially if the game was made for multiplayer and there is no population to play the game it’s going to crash and burn, so don’t forget that casual players may have numbers on us classic players but if they are not around after a short time… then you took the ideas and opinions of people who didn’t love the game and put them above people who want this game to live on forever, I think all these things should be watched if it is tested the way I’m proposing.
>
> I know this was a lot of reading to do and I appreciate it if you took the time to read this, but I think this could help put this debate to rest and finally give the halo universe the best possible play style it needs to make it the best game series in the world.
>
> Also I hope my opinions didn’t come off biased at all, I would like this test to be completely fair for both sides of the community and hope 343i considers my idea. Anyway thanks guys! See ya on the battle field!

I think this is a great idea.
And it’s fair to everyone.
I say a go on this idea, so we can finally settle this debate fair an square.

4

> And for anyone who doesn’t think it’s fair that classic players get a whole demo and class based only get a playlist, well that is because the class based games are still pretty new (especially compared to classic style) and it would make it easier for 343i to throw this together whereas they might over look this whole idea if it seems like way to much non-profitable work. Besides, be it a demo or playlist it should work the same for this test, so just thought I’d throw this out there.

So basically the oppisite of the legendary/classic playlist in Reach/4

This would be stupid since classic fans hated being confned to one playlist and it would happen with the modern fans.

A better solution would be to half the playlists split into classic and modern, or have the playlist contain a mixture of modern and classic versions of each gamemode which would be shown throguh the name or through a symbol (this being the better of the two)

Classic: what ever symbol you can come up with
Modern: same as abive but different.

And I’d like to throw out that class based multiplayer is hardly new and has been around for years.

5

> > And for anyone who doesn’t think it’s fair that classic players get a whole demo and class based only get a playlist, well that is because the class based games are still pretty new (especially compared to classic style) and it would make it easier for 343i to throw this together whereas they might over look this whole idea if it seems like way to much non-profitable work. Besides, be it a demo or playlist it should work the same for this test, so just thought I’d throw this out there.
>
> So basically the oppisite of the legendary/classic playlist in Reach/4
>
> This would be stupid since classic fans hated being confned to one playlist and it would happen with the modern fans.
>
> A better solution would be to half the playlists split into classic and modern, or have the playlist contain a mixture of modern and classic versions of each gamemode which would be shown throguh the name or through a symbol (this being the better of the two)
>
> Classic: what ever symbol you can come up with
> Modern: same as abive but different.
>
> And I’d like to throw out that class based multiplayer is hardly new and has been around for years.

6

> > And for anyone who doesn’t think it’s fair that classic players get a whole demo and class based only get a playlist, well that is because the class based games are still pretty new (especially compared to classic style) and it would make it easier for 343i to throw this together whereas they might over look this whole idea if it seems like way to much non-profitable work. Besides, be it a demo or playlist it should work the same for this test, so just thought I’d throw this out there.
>
> So basically the oppisite of the legendary/classic playlist in Reach/4
>
> This would be stupid since classic fans hated being confned to one playlist and it would happen with the modern fans.
>
> A better solution would be to half the playlists split into classic and modern, or have the playlist contain a mixture of modern and classic versions of each gamemode which would be shown throguh the name or through a symbol (this being the better of the two)
>
> Classic: what ever symbol you can come up with
> Modern: same as abive but different.
>
> And I’d like to throw out that class based multiplayer is hardly new and has been around for years.

It’s to test which side is better/More loved by the halo community.
If you put them both in one playlist it wouldn’t work because the voting in halo 4 is biased to who’s game is more to the left when voting (bad tie breaker if you ask me) plus people would get the full classic experience with a halo 2 demo.
And the same vise virsa for the class base lovers.
This way we can settle which side is the best path for halo to take in a fair non biased showdown.
And 343i can finally know which path is best to take and put there full effort towards making halo the best it can be without divided community’s.

7

The thing is that the population of people that like class-based Halo is statistically tiny compared to those that don’t.

H3 had over one million players online a year after launch. Halo 4 had something like 20,000. So basically less than one percent of the population like H4 enough to continue to play it, so the obvious fix is marginalize that population for the benefit of the larger audience (people that like classic).

8

I like this idea but wouldn’t it be better for 343 to make a halo on xbox one beta were they have both classic game modes and modern game modes so it’s equal playing fields because all halo fans will get involved and if classic style is the most popular and that gets more focused on then who am I to comment it but do we need to line up and execute one style of gameplay. Imagine halo as a hotdog and classic halo is good old ketchup and halo modern is sweet mustard or vice versa and a lot of people will want ketchup so you offer more ketchup but you will always have mustard for the people who want something different and there will be people who want both but there is always that one person that will march up and demand tarder sauce and people will be confused lol : )

9

> The thing is that the population of people that like class-based Halo is statistically tiny compared to those that don’t.
>
> H3 had over one million players online a year after launch. Halo 4 had something like 20,000. So basically less than one percent of the population like H4 enough to continue to play it, so the obvious fix is marginalize that population for the benefit of the larger audience (people that like classic).

Although I agree with those stats it’s only fair to have a showdown to show 343i which side is best to go with.

10

Going against each other is not the solution…

I say rather than dividing the community lets just take the best of both worlds. What do the classic arena H2/H3 players want? Balance, Competition, for the game to be more rewarding for skilled players. What do modern class H4 players want? Customization, Variability, for the game to be fresh.

Let’s face it we aren’t going to go backwards to Halo 2. So rather than squaring off against H4 players we need to advocate for the things we want while embracing some of the new changes. So let’s think of ways in which we can achieve competitive balance while maintaining all the customization and variation.

Embrace some of the changes such as loadouts if they are balanced. Allow the tactical/support packages to be customized, but lock in 1 or no AA’s per gametype. This would create balance within each gametype but would create a variety of new exciting gametypes. I think if there is controlled variation rather than complete randomness it could make both sides happy. Making sort of a balanced class/arena shooter.

11

> Going against each other is not the solution…
>
> I say rather than dividing the community lets just take the best of both worlds. What do the classic arena H2/H3 players want? Balance, Competition, for the game to be more rewarding for skilled players. What do modern class H4 players want? Customization, Variability, for the game to be fresh.
>
> Let’s face it we aren’t going to go backwards to Halo 2. So rather than squaring off against H4 players we need to advocate for the things we want while embracing some of the new changes. So let’s think of ways in which we can achieve competitive balance while maintaining all the customization and variation.
>
> Embrace some of the changes such as loadouts if they are balanced. Allow the tactical/support packages to be customized, but lock in 1 or no AA’s per gametype. This would create balance within each gametype but would create a variety of new exciting gametypes. I think if there is controlled variation rather than complete randomness it could make both sides happy. Making sort of a balanced class/arena shooter.

as much as that would be great it would never work. Halo has to choose a path.
Or they’re will always be one side that gets screwed while the other gets exactly what they want.
It’s been said the casuals can play a competitive game but competitive players can’t play a casual game.
With the game being built around AAs on map and perks and load outs and ordinance drops.
While they break halo gameplay, if you take them out of a game that’s built around them it will always play bad.
Maps get made bigger because of this and built different to compensate for the AAs.
So when you take them out for just one play list or more it still doesn’t play right.
You can’t slave for two masters because you will always be biased to one.

12

Come on guys this is a chance to make a real difference.
Nobody wants to have a chance a shaping halo 5’s future? This is a chance to show them that we wanna make our own decisions and prove that our opinion matters not just what 343i thinks is the best thing to do. we can let them know what most of the community wants.

13

> > And for anyone who doesn’t think it’s fair that classic players get a whole demo and class based only get a playlist, well that is because the class based games are still pretty new (especially compared to classic style) and it would make it easier for 343i to throw this together whereas they might over look this whole idea if it seems like way to much non-profitable work. Besides, be it a demo or playlist it should work the same for this test, so just thought I’d throw this out there.
>
> So basically the oppisite of the legendary/classic playlist in Reach/4
>
> This would be stupid since classic fans hated being confned to one playlist and it would happen with the modern fans.
>
> A better solution would be to half the playlists split into classic and modern, or have the playlist contain a mixture of modern and classic versions of each gamemode which would be shown throguh the name or through a symbol (this being the better of the two)
>
> Classic: what ever symbol you can come up with
> Modern: same as abive but different.
>
> And I’d like to throw out that class based multiplayer is hardly new and has been around for years.

No, that solution of splitting the game 50/50 would only work if the community was split 50/50. It clearly isn’t. Judging by Halo 4’s abysmall population compared to previous Halo games, it’s clear that the vast majority of players prefer a more traditional Halo game.

Plus, you can’t build a Halo game around both classic and infinity playstyles. Both styles of gameplay require very different balancing and map sizes/design. You would either end up with two mediocre game styles, neither which reach their full potential due to split resources, or you’ll have something like Halo 4, where one playstyle is dominant (in this case, Infinity), and the other is a failed attempt at being a good representation of what it should be (Which was Legendary in Halo 4).

343i needs to focus on one particular style of gameplay, and get that right. One thing that Bungie realizes was that you can’t please everybody, so you just gotta do the best you can and hope that people like it. 343i tried to please everybody with Halo 4, but ended up disappointing a vast majority of those people.

14

Competitive and casual playlists. Done.

15

> I like this idea but wouldn’t it be better for 343 to make a halo on xbox one beta were they have both classic game modes and modern game modes so it’s equal playing fields because all halo fans will get involved and if classic style is the most popular and that gets more focused on then who am I to comment it but do we need to line up and execute one style of gameplay. Imagine halo as a hotdog and classic halo is good old ketchup and halo modern is sweet mustard or vice versa and a lot of people will want ketchup so you offer more ketchup but you will always have mustard for the people who want something different and there will be people who want both but there is always that one person that will march up and demand tarder sauce and people will be confused lol : )

Yeah but trying to fuse classic halo and class base halo is like putting ketchup and mustard in the same squeeze bottle and telling everyone they have to use that on there hotdog.

16

> > > And for anyone who doesn’t think it’s fair that classic players get a whole demo and class based only get a playlist, well that is because the class based games are still pretty new (especially compared to classic style) and it would make it easier for 343i to throw this together whereas they might over look this whole idea if it seems like way to much non-profitable work. Besides, be it a demo or playlist it should work the same for this test, so just thought I’d throw this out there.
> >
> > So basically the oppisite of the legendary/classic playlist in Reach/4
> >
> > This would be stupid since classic fans hated being confned to one playlist and it would happen with the modern fans.
> >
> > A better solution would be to half the playlists split into classic and modern, or have the playlist contain a mixture of modern and classic versions of each gamemode which would be shown throguh the name or through a symbol (this being the better of the two)
> >
> > Classic: what ever symbol you can come up with
> > Modern: same as abive but different.
> >
> > And I’d like to throw out that class based multiplayer is hardly new and has been around for years.
>
> No, that solution of splitting the game 50/50 would only work if the community was split 50/50. It clearly isn’t. Judging by Halo 4’s abysmall population compared to previous Halo games, it’s clear that the vast majority of players prefer a more traditional Halo game.
>
> Plus, you can’t build a Halo game around both classic and infinity playstyles. Both styles of gameplay require very different balancing and map sizes/design. You would either end up with two mediocre game styles, neither which reach their full potential due to split resources, or you’ll have something like Halo 4, where one playstyle is dominant (in this case, Infinity), and the other is a failed attempt at being a good representation of what it should be (Which was Legendary in Halo 4).
>
> 343i needs to focus on one particular style of gameplay, and get that right. One thing that Bungie realizes was that you can’t please everybody, so you just gotta do the best you can and hope that people like it. 343i tried to please everybody with Halo 4, but ended up disappointing a vast majority of those people.

exactly 50/50 doesn’t work when it’s more like 95/5.
The community needs to get together on this idea so we can finish this debate.
And with the help of 343i we can have a fair way of telling which side is more popular.
And not have to talk out of our butts, but have proof once and for all which side goes and which side stays.

17

> > Going against each other is not the solution…
> >
> > I say rather than dividing the community lets just take the best of both worlds. What do the classic arena H2/H3 players want? Balance, Competition, for the game to be more rewarding for skilled players. What do modern class H4 players want? Customization, Variability, for the game to be fresh.
> >
> > Let’s face it we aren’t going to go backwards to Halo 2. So rather than squaring off against H4 players we need to advocate for the things we want while embracing some of the new changes. So let’s think of ways in which we can achieve competitive balance while maintaining all the customization and variation.
> >
> > Embrace some of the changes such as loadouts if they are balanced. Allow the tactical/support packages to be customized, but lock in 1 or no AA’s per gametype. This would create balance within each gametype but would create a variety of new exciting gametypes. I think if there is controlled variation rather than complete randomness it could make both sides happy. Making sort of a balanced class/arena shooter.
>
> as much as that would be great it would never work. Halo has to choose a path.
> Or they’re will always be one side that gets screwed while the other gets exactly what they want.
> It’s been said the casuals can play a competitive game but competitive players can’t play a casual game.
> With the game being built around AAs on map and perks and load outs and ordinance drops.
> While they break halo gameplay, if you take them out of a game that’s built around them it will always play bad.
> Maps get made bigger because of this and built different to compensate for the AAs.
> So when you take them out for just one play list or more it still doesn’t play right.
> You can’t slave for two masters because you will always be biased to one.

Why can’t there be a middle ground that makes everyone happy? Like you said they could enhance the competitive nature of the game while still including some of the new changes. I loved Halo 2 but I also loved Halo 3 and there were changes that were made between the two titles, some good, some bad. All that has to be done is to keep the good changes while tossing out the bad. AA’s/Perks/loadouts do not make the game any less competitive. Having a bunch of RANDOMNESS does. POD’s make the game too random, but not some of the other stuff. If AA’s were limited to 1 or none per gametype and the loadouts were balanced the game would be more competitive because you would know exactly what you were up against.

18

> Competitive and casual playlists. Done.

No! I’m a casual player, I don’t care about my K/D, nor do I care whether I win or lose. To put it simply, I play just to enjoy myself without any worries. However, I very highly dislike all of the additions made in Halo 4, including Sprint, Ordnance, Perks and Flinching. A traditional Halo experience is what I want in a Halo game, but that doesn’t mean that I’m automatically labelled as a competitive player. Why should I be forced to either play competitive or play the Infinity settings I despise due to this? I am certainly not the only one who feels this way.

Honestly, the community needs to stop automatically associating all competitive players with classic Halo, and all non-competitive players with Infinity settings. It’s far from being a good representation of people’s preferences, especially since these vary from person to person, making it impossible to just quickly classify people into groups.

19

> > Competitive and casual playlists. Done.
>
> No! I’m a casual player, I don’t care about my K/D, nor do I care whether I win or lose. To put it simply, I play just to enjoy myself without any worries. However, I very highly dislike all of the additions made in Halo 4, including Sprint, Ordnance, Perks and Flinching. A traditional Halo experience is what I want in a Halo game, but that doesn’t mean that I’m automatically labelled as a competitive player. Why should I be forced to either play competitive or play the Infinity settings I despise due to this? I am certainly not the only one who feels this way.
>
> Honestly, the community needs to stop automatically associating all competitive players with classic Halo, and all non-competitive players with Infinity settings. It’s far from being a good representation of people’s preferences, especially since these vary from person to person, making it impossible to just quickly classify people into groups.

See you never know who wants what just cause they’re casual doesn’t mean they like class base.
Good example is this guy who’s casual but is a classic halo fan. Come on guys lets get 343i to help us settle this once and for all in a fair non biased way.

20

343 will make the best adjustments they can to their game and try to clean up their past mistakes, but the game will undoubtedly be more like Halo 4 rather than the older H2/H3 titles. I just hope they can mold what they have into something a bit more competitive and less random.

If they were going to make the next game like H2 they should have just made Halo 2 Anniversary.