Clairify please.

So it’s been brought up before that weapons like the DMR and Light rifle Discourage map movement and hurt map flow.

But when someone tries to point out that Automatics encourage map movement they get told they are wrong. Why is this?

Automatics encourage map movement insofar as they encourage you to scout the map for a better weapon. That’s how I see it anyway.

> Automatics encourage map movement insofar as they encourage you to scout the map for a better weapon. That’s how I see it anyway.

Well before Halo 4 yeah, but automatics these days aren’t designed to be ditched the minute you find a BR or an excuse to get rid of your Magnum.

If the situation requires you to fight in medium or long than yes you should switch you automatic out.

And as always swapping out your primary or secondary weapons for a power is what should be done. That should go pretty much any weapon you spawn with.

Anyways I don’t play a lot of big team but the way I see it is that Automatics don’t encourage map movement it’s just that they don’t discourage it like long range primaries do.

But based on what little I’ve played of Big team it’s only maps that weren’t designed to have players spawn with long range weapons like Ragnarok that have movement issues. When I play Exile I have little issues traveling around the map no matter what primary weapon I spawn with.

In Halo 5 I’d like to have close, medium and long range primary weapons as long as maps can be made to support them.

It depends on which game you are talking about. In Halo 4, Automatics are better suited for holding a position and discouraging map movement in a small spot, while everything else is better for engaging the enemy and discouraging movement in large open spaces.

Prior to Halo 4, players are moving mainly so that they can swap out the automatics with a better weapon and dump the AR in a nearby scrap pile. This is due to the Automatics just being overall crap when in comparison to just about any other weapon that isn’t a Plasma Pistol.

I think after all the weopon tuning the gameplay is how it should be, haven’t heard this subject as much since they decreased the range of the dmr. overall halo has jumped 10 steps forward since launch and i love the game.

Halo’s gameplay has always centered around mid-range weapons. The CE pistol, the Halo 2/3 BR, and the Reach DMR were all most effective at mid-range. When you make long-range weapons more effective (Halo 4 DMR and LR), mid-range combat and movement becomes relatively less effective. When you make close-range weapons more effective (Halo 4 AR and SR), mid-range combat and movement becomes relatively less effective.

It used to be that all players attempted to engage all other players at mid-range, resulting in “dances.” In Halo 4, you have automatic users chasing mid-range users, mid-range users chasing long-range users, and long-range users constantly running away. Halo gameplay has changed from a “dance” into a chase, each player running either towards or away from his opponents in order to get into his weapon’s effective range. To me, the dance is much more immersive and enjoyable than the chase.

That said, I really like that in Halo 4, the AR is slightly more effective at close-range than the BR. I really enjoy equipping both a mid-range and a close-range weapon in my loadout and then swapping based on which weapon I think I’ll need to use. The AR does take quite a bit of skill in order to kill before a BR does, and it’s so satisfying.

So, though I don’t think an automatic or long-range weapon should be as viable of a primary weapon as a mid-range rifle, I do think it could be excellent support/secondary weapon.

I should make a public apology post for my previous stance on the DMR.

No, long range weapons do not significantly impact map flow. Yes, sitting back with a DMR or CE Magnum is possible, but if you only do this you are not killing as many enemies or grabbing as many items as you potentially could be. Sightlines and spawn points prevent one spot from being effective for the entire game, while pickups enforce movement.

Further using that logic, the battle rifle should never be able to fire from one side of a room to another, because it “kills map flow”. A whole 20 feet of the map go unused in that scenario. We should just use melee instead.

Automatics are useless outside of close range. They might “encourage map flow”, but they also put you at an extreme advantage once someone actually picks up a better weapon. A single person with a BR can do wonders against a team of AR users.

Map movement is decent enough for me. Especially CTF.

> I should make a public apology post for my previous stance on the DMR.
>
> No, long range weapons do not significantly impact map flow. Yes, sitting back with a DMR or CE Magnum is possible, but if you only do this you are not killing as many enemies or grabbing as many items as you potentially could be. Sightlines and spawn points prevent one spot from being effective for the entire game, while pickups enforce movement.
>
> Further using that logic, the battle rifle should never be able to fire from one side of a room to another, because it “kills map flow”. A whole 20 feet of the map go unused in that scenario. We should just use melee instead.
>
> Automatics are useless outside of close range. They might “encourage map flow”, but they also put you at an extreme advantage once someone actually picks up a better weapon. A single person with a BR can do wonders against a team of AR users.

Then what would you say has disturbed the flow of BTB maps in halo 4? Personally i can see how POD impacts the flow but seeing as how we have weapons on the map too i feel they cancel each other out. I don’t see how weapons that are good at long range “don’t” effect map flow negatively.

Something broke Valhalla and i don’t think it’s just POD.

> > I should make a public apology post for my previous stance on the DMR.
> >
> > No, long range weapons do not significantly impact map flow. Yes, sitting back with a DMR or CE Magnum is possible, but if you only do this you are not killing as many enemies or grabbing as many items as you potentially could be. Sightlines and spawn points prevent one spot from being effective for the entire game, while pickups enforce movement.
> >
> > Further using that logic, the battle rifle should never be able to fire from one side of a room to another, because it “kills map flow”. A whole 20 feet of the map go unused in that scenario. We should just use melee instead.
> >
> > Automatics are useless outside of close range. They might “encourage map flow”, but they also put you at an extreme advantage once someone actually picks up a better weapon. A single person with a BR can do wonders against a team of AR users.
>
> <mark>Then what would you say has disturbed the flow of BTB maps in halo 4</mark>? Personally i can see how POD impacts the flow but seeing as how we have weapons on the map too i feel they cancel each other out. I don’t see how weapons that are good at long range “don’t” effect map flow negatively.
>
> Something broke Valhalla and i don’t think it’s just POD.

Pre-update DMR and currently plasma pistols and 'nades for vehicles.

I’ve been cleaning house with the AR post-update lol. I NEVER used it before but now it’s one of my favorite weapons. People rage when I “snipe” them with it (it’s called pulsing your fire!)

> Then what would you say has disturbed the flow of BTB maps in halo 4?

The Players and sightline design.

Players in Halo 4 won’t grab a power weapon despite it being five feet from them, weapon indicator over it, and no enemies around. I seriously witness this behavior from match to match on a constant basis. It shocks me.

I also see players running AR or BR on large maps like Ragnarok. If you put yourself at a disadvantage, it’s your own fault.

I constantly hear complaints of “they have us pinned down with DMRs” but I fail to see how this is a valid complaint. You can easily shoot back at enemies with your own DMR, except you don’t have a DMR equipped because see above.

What is the biggest factor? Sightlines.
I’ll draw a diagram real quick to illustrate the point.

Now, let’s explain why Bungie made Valhalla instead of simply copy-pasting Blood Gulch.

However some areas on Valhalla are still left open, which was acceptable in Halo 3 since the BR’s spread naturally limited these areas. But in Halo 4, one can snipe with the DMR across these open areas.

Simply put, we need to alter our sightlines again, if DMR sniping is even deemed undesirable. I also disagree with the premise flow has been significantly impacted across the board. Some BTB maps flow perfectly fine even with DMR starts.

> Automatics encourage map movement insofar as they encourage you to scout the map for a better weapon. That’s how I see it anyway.

True, but they also tend to promote suicide charges for players who don’t go out of their way to look for weapons on the map. (which happens to be a large chunk of the population)

> > Then what would you say has disturbed the flow of BTB maps in halo 4?
>
> The Players and sightline design.
>
> Players in Halo 4 won’t grab a power weapon despite it being five feet from them, weapon indicator over it, and no enemies around. I seriously witness this behavior from match to match on a constant basis. It shocks me.
>
> I also see players running AR or BR on large maps like Ragnarok. If you put yourself at a disadvantage, it’s your own fault.
>
> I constantly hear complaints of “they have us pinned down with DMRs” but I fail to see how this is a valid complaint. You can easily shoot back at enemies with your own DMR, except you don’t have a DMR equipped because see above.
>
> What is the biggest factor? Sightlines.
> I’ll draw a diagram real quick to illustrate the point.
>
> Now, let’s explain why Bungie made Valhalla instead of simply copy-pasting Blood Gulch.
>
> However some areas on Valhalla are still left open, which was acceptable in Halo 3 since the BR’s spread naturally limited these areas. But in Halo 4, one can snipe with the DMR across these open areas.
>
> <mark>Simply put, we need to alter our sightlines again, if DMR sniping is even deemed undesirable</mark>. I also disagree with the premise flow has been significantly impacted across the board. Some BTB maps flow perfectly fine even with DMR starts.

Simply put, I agree. I have always said one of my biggest wishes for the next game is better made maps, not necessarily bigger ones.

> > I should make a public apology post for my previous stance on the DMR.
> >
> > No, long range weapons do not significantly impact map flow. Yes, sitting back with a DMR or CE Magnum is possible, but if you only do this you are not killing as many enemies or grabbing as many items as you potentially could be. Sightlines and spawn points prevent one spot from being effective for the entire game, while pickups enforce movement.
> >
> > Further using that logic, the battle rifle should never be able to fire from one side of a room to another, because it “kills map flow”. A whole 20 feet of the map go unused in that scenario. We should just use melee instead.
> >
> > Automatics are useless outside of close range. They might “encourage map flow”, but they also put you at an extreme advantage once someone actually picks up a better weapon. A single person with a BR can do wonders against a team of AR users.
>
> <mark>Then what would you say has disturbed the flow of BTB maps in halo 4?</mark> Personally i can see how POD impacts the flow but seeing as how we have weapons on the map too i feel they cancel each other out. I don’t see how weapons that are good at long range “don’t” effect map flow negatively.
>
> Something broke Valhalla and i don’t think it’s just POD.

The lack of descope, and the existence of the Mantis in almost every map.

> > > I should make a public apology post for my previous stance on the DMR.
> > >
> > > No, long range weapons do not significantly impact map flow. Yes, sitting back with a DMR or CE Magnum is possible, but if you only do this you are not killing as many enemies or grabbing as many items as you potentially could be. Sightlines and spawn points prevent one spot from being effective for the entire game, while pickups enforce movement.
> > >
> > > Further using that logic, the battle rifle should never be able to fire from one side of a room to another, because it “kills map flow”. A whole 20 feet of the map go unused in that scenario. We should just use melee instead.
> > >
> > > Automatics are useless outside of close range. They might “encourage map flow”, but they also put you at an extreme advantage once someone actually picks up a better weapon. A single person with a BR can do wonders against a team of AR users.
> >
> > <mark>Then what would you say has disturbed the flow of BTB maps in halo 4?</mark> Personally i can see how POD impacts the flow but seeing as how we have weapons on the map too i feel they cancel each other out. I don’t see how weapons that are good at long range “don’t” effect map flow negatively.
> >
> > Something broke Valhalla and i don’t think it’s just POD.
>
> <mark>The lack of descope, and the existence of the Mantis in almost every map</mark>.

That’s one reason I like Exile so much

> > Then what would you say has disturbed the flow of BTB maps in halo 4?
>
> The Players and sightline design.
> …
> What is the biggest factor? Sightlines.
> I’ll draw a diagram real quick to illustrate the point.
>
> Now, let’s explain why Bungie made Valhalla instead of simply copy-pasting Blood Gulch.
>
> However some areas on Valhalla are still left open, which was acceptable in Halo 3 since the BR’s spread naturally limited these areas. But in Halo 4, one can snipe with the DMR across these open areas.
>
> Simply put, we need to alter our sightlines again, if DMR sniping is even deemed undesirable. I also disagree with the premise flow has been significantly impacted across the board. Some BTB maps flow perfectly fine even with DMR starts.

But the only way to interrupt sightlines is through clutter, and clutter is a huge disruption to vehicle combat. The only reason PPs and PGs in loadouts destroy vehicle combat is because of all of the clutter in Halo 4’s maps. Without clutter, it would be a lot more difficult to get close enough to a vehicle to be able to PP-PG it. Even without PPs and PGs in loadouts, vehicles need large and open spaces to play in. Perhaps the most famous BTB map in Halo history was Sandtrap, and it was basically just one large, open area. Halo vehicle combat at its finest.

So then, you add clutter, and vehicle combat suffers. You remove clutter, and long-range weapons become OP. Solution: remove clutter and long-range weapons from loadouts.

> But the only way to interrupt sightlines is through clutter, and clutter is a huge disruption to vehicle combat. The only reason PPs and PGs in loadouts destroy vehicle combat is because of all of the clutter in Halo 4’s maps. Without clutter, it would be a lot more difficult to get close enough to a vehicle to be able to PP-PG it. Even without PPs and PGs in loadouts, vehicles need large and open spaces to play in. Perhaps the most famous BTB map in Halo history was Sandtrap, and it was basically just one large, open area. Halo vehicle combat at its finest.
>
> So then, you add clutter, and vehicle combat suffers. You remove clutter, and long-range weapons become OP. Solution: remove clutter and long-range weapons from loadouts.

We do not need “clutter” to interrupt sightlines, as evidenced by Valhalla compared to Blood Gulch. Something as simple as a hill or a ramp interrupts sightlines but still allows vehicles and infantry to travel over it with ease. Sandtrap is a good example considering the map has a giant forerunner wedge going down the middle of it’s space along with some hills and valleys.

I still have yet to see an argument for why long range weapons are OP. The H2BR is essentially the same as the H4DMR. Is it because they are required on large maps? If so you can say the BR is required on medium maps, and the AR is required on small ones.

PP-PG will ruin vehicle combat regardless. Ragnarok doesn’t have any more clutter than Valhalla and is still negatively impacted by those two items.

> We do not need “clutter” to interrupt sightlines, as evidenced by Valhalla compared to Blood Gulch. Something as simple as a hill or a ramp interrupts sightlines but still allows vehicles and infantry to travel over it with ease. Sandtrap is a good example considering the map has a giant forerunner wedge going down the middle of it’s space along with some hills and valleys.
>
> I still have yet to see an argument for why long range weapons are OP. The H2BR is essentially the same as the H4DMR. Is it because they are required on large maps? If so you can say the BR is required on medium maps, and the AR is required on small ones.

Can you imagine playing Sandtrap with a Halo 4 DMR? You could sit on top of one of the structures be within range and sights of everyone on the map all at the same time. No one would be safe from you, not even vehicles.

> Can you imagine playing Sandtrap with a Halo 4 DMR?

No, but I wouldn’t play Spartan Lasers on Guardian either.

> You could sit on top of one of the structures be within range and sights of everyone on the map all at the same time. No one would be safe from you, not even vehicles.

Right, and you are equally vulnerable to everyone at the same time, as sightlines work both ways. Though I could see how that could get pretty chaotic, everyone being able to see each other at once.

I could argue that there isn’t really a spot on Sandtrap where you can see everyone at once, but I don’t want to get that in-depth over something that is mostly irrelevant.

Instead, why don’t you tell me what is wrong with…let’s say Vortex Dominion DMR’s Only.