"Champions DLC doesn't work in Spartan Ops?"

Games Other Halo
461

> Well we get an explanation, but not in a bulletin: Source
>
>
>
> > Hi, DecadenceXx. HurryingCandy is correct. Due to the expansive sandbox featured in Spartan Ops missions, we have less flexibility to use additional memory for new content. We would have loved to implement it across the board but unfortunately that was too risky of a move (risky in this instance meaning there was a strong likelihood of breaking things).
>
> *hides

Does anyone else think that it’s just a little odd that this particular thread has been hammering for a response for about a week, yet the response quoted above showed up in a brand new thread on this exact same subject almost immediately after the first two posts? The only reason this post appeared here is because SpartanT110 brought it here for all to see (thanks for that, by the way).

I started reading this thread last Wednesday and got caught up by Friday (I mostly do this at work when I’m stuck at a desk for an hour with nothing to do but answer the phone. It’s not my job, it’s just something I have to do for an hour). Anyway, it’s pretty clear that no one really gives a damn why the content doesn’t work in SpOps. What has us buying pitchforks and torches is that it is just becoming more and more increasingly clear that 343i knew it wouldn’t work and didn’t say so, and still aren’t saying so.

I’d like to hear a compelling reason from an actual 343i employee for me to believe anything they say about any future product they expect me to give them money for.

What they did was not false advertising. It was misleading by omission, and there isn’t any possible way they could not have known it wasn’t going to work. They’re blaming the code, which they wrote. Either they don’t understand what they did, or they don’t know what they’re doing. This is not the sort of thing I was expecting from a developer that claims to be better at this than Bungie. I’ve seen them do some stuff, but I have yet to see them do anything better than Bungie did. Different maybe, but not better. Certainly not better.

Before it’s too late, I think perhaps 343i should divert all that energy they’re putting into trying to make us believe they are God’s gift to gaming into making a game that’s God’s gift to gaming.

You know, like Bungie did.

(If you don’t believe Halo is God’s gift to gaming, why are you here?)

462

> You don’t have to like what’s going on with the DLC, but <mark>there is no reason to doubt the explanation that’s been given.</mark> There are plenty of actual issues to discuss, such as the lack of a Marketplace disclaimer on release or (AFAIK) the continued lack of a disclaimer. No need to create new issues where there aren’t any.

There is actually very good reason to doubt the explanation that has been given. 343i has been ruining their own reputation (Mostly through inaction) and have established themselves as being untrustworthy in the minds of many within the Halo Community.

463

What I was saying about loading armor is that only 7 pieces of armor are loaded per Spartan model and up to 4 Spartans can play in a Spartan Ops match. Why would it take more RAM to load the ODST helmet rather than say the Pioneer helmet which has more polygons?

As for the RAM, you keep saying the 360 has 512MBs of RAM, when it in fact has 2GBs of RAM. You’re thinking of VRAM which is integrated in the GPU. The 360 has 512MBs of VRAM, not system RAM. VRAM is used during the GPU’s processing to calculate and render shaders, polygons, and textures, NOT queuing-up load items/resources. That’s why I don’t buy 343i’s excuse.

464

> What I was saying about loading armor is that only 7 pieces of armor are loaded per Spartan model and up to 4 Spartans can play in a Spartan Ops match. Why would it take more RAM to load the ODST helmet rather than say the Pioneer helmet which has more polygons?
>
> As for the RAM, you keep saying the 360 has 512MBs of RAM, when it in fact has 2GBs of RAM. You’re thinking of VRAM which is integrated in the GPU. <mark>The 360 has 512GBs of VRAM, not system RAM.</mark> VRAM is used during the GPU’s processing to calculate and render shaders, polygons, and textures, NOT queuing-up load items/resources. That’s why I don’t buy 343i’s excuse.

I think you meant 512 MBs of VRAM, not 512 GBs. If the XBOX 360 had 512 GBs of VRAM, oh the games we could play…

465

I wrote this in the fake “DLC doesn’t work in SpOps” thread, but this belongs in the real one as well

It appears that we may have stumbled across the reason we will not be seeing a season 2 of SPARTAN Ops.

As you know, 343i has spent about half a year “adjusting” just about everything in War Games. They have been bragging about the amount of control they have over that code. They have led us to believe that they can do just about anything you can imagine in War Games (and some of the things they have done are, in my opinion, unimaginable).

Not so with SPARTAN Ops. After the first five Chapters we kept expecting to see something more amazing, more challenging, more innovative, more… something. Yet right up to the last chapter all we got was “push button, release more enemies.”

Perhaps the SPARTAN Ops code is so tight, so inflexible, so (dare I say it) poorly written that we have essentially seen everything it can do. It can’t even accommodate a few different armor pieces.

The real shame here is that SPARTAN Ops is truly the only thing that Bungie never did before. SPARTAN Ops was 343i’s real opportunity to show that they could really give the fans something that Bungie couldn’t. The concept is awesome: Episodic campaign-style games were anything could happen. Every type of Halo game we are accustomed to could have been incorporated into a SPARTAN Ops chapter. Firefight? Sure, why not. Invasion? You betcha. Dominion? Extraction? Rocket Race? A clever writer could make up a reason for any game to be played in SPARTAN Ops, and if we liked playing the game we wouldn’t be really touchy about the reason.

It was also the perfect venue to try out new weapons and vehicles generated from Infinity’s new-found friends. Imagine a mission where you get a chance to try out the new “time-lock grenade” or the “tactical hoverboard”. You wouldn’t want to see stuff like that in War Games without extensive testing, which would take place in SpOps.

But no, it appears that 343i’s mouths wrote a check that their -Yoinks!- can’t cash, and now they are attempting to hide SPARTAN Ops deeper than the last Primordial. The only thing that was truly theirs, and they’re so embarrassed about it that they’re trying to pretend it never existed.

“GOTY edition?” Another misleading advertisement. It should just say “Game That’s Been Out For About a Year Edition” and just leave it at that.

466

Is how it doesn’t mention it doesn’t work in Spartan Ops on the marketplace really 343’s fault though? That’s Microsofts problem, however it could of been mentioned beforehand by 343

467

> Is how it doesn’t mention it doesn’t work in Spartan Ops on the marketplace really 343’s fault though? That’s Microsofts problem, however it could of been mentioned beforehand by 343

Yes. Yes it is. 343i is Microsoft. Microsoft is 343i. 343i had a duty to inform Microsoft. Microsoft has a duty to inform potential buyers. If 343i didn’t tell Microsoft, how could they know? If 343i did tell Microsoft and Microsoft chose to let that little item slip from their product description, then 343i still had an obligation to tell fans in a timely fashion using every means necessary that fans of SPARTAN Ops may not be interested in the bundle.

468

> What I was saying about loading armor is that only 7 pieces of armor are loaded per Spartan model and up to 4 Spartans can play in a Spartan Ops match. Why would it take more RAM to load the ODST helmet rather than say the Pioneer helmet which has more polygons?

A fair point. But that would require detecting the armor of every player in the match, and then preventing any unused armor from loading. If the loading system isn’t already set up to very diligently filter out unused assets, then making that modification for armor in time for the DLC’s release would be difficult, messy, hackish, and hard to error-proof.

> As for the RAM, you keep saying the 360 has 512MBs of RAM, when it in fact has 2GBs of RAM. You’re thinking of VRAM which is integrated in the GPU. The 360 has 512GBs of VRAM, not system RAM. VRAM is used during the GPU’s processing to calculate and render shaders, polygons, and textures, NOT queuing-up load items/resources. That’s why I don’t buy 343i’s excuse.

Every source I can find says that the Xbox 360’s CPU and GPU share the same 512MB RAM. If you have a different source, then please do share – I wouldn’t want to spread wrong information.

469

> > Is how it doesn’t mention it doesn’t work in Spartan Ops on the marketplace really 343’s fault though? That’s Microsofts problem, however it could of been mentioned beforehand by 343
>
> Yes. Yes it is. 343i is Microsoft. Microsoft is 343i. 343i had a duty to inform Microsoft. Microsoft has a duty to inform potential buyers. If 343i didn’t tell Microsoft, how could they know? If 343i did tell Microsoft and Microsoft chose to let that little item slip from their product description, then 343i still had an obligation to tell fans in a timely fashion using every means necessary that fans of SPARTAN Ops may not be interested in the bundle.

Microsoft may own and partially manage 343i, but they are different entities with different personnel and different stances on various issues. That said, I too am curious as to why they didn’t include a disclaimer on release, when the issue was the result of code limitations.

At this point, I think the best thing 343i can do is:

a. Explain the lack of a disclaimer on release.

b. Add a disclaimer now – “War Games only” – and inform us of the addition.

c. Explain how they plan on preventing this kind of mistake from happening again.

Granted, there could be all sorts of policy or legal reasons preventing them from disclosing “post-mortem” information like that, or it could involve sensitive information (they can’t just walk in here and say “Sorry guys, John and Jane from PR screwed up so we gave them a pay cut”). If it is a policy or legal problem, though, then they should see about clearing it up, because as many of you have rightly pointed out, leaving the issue unaddressed does kill trust in the company.

470

It’s all very shady and disappointing, which is why I’m losing my objectivity. Perhaps the software is too limited, or perhaps it isn’t. As my dad would say, “It’s either one, or the other.” Either way, the combination of all the aforementioned issues are like punches. One can with stand a punch or two to the face, but when it becomes a massive combo, you can’t help feeling the effects of such abuse. That’s why this issue is still going on.

343i’s lack of communication is sowing so much discontent that we gamers are on the verge of taking our frustrations out on each other, because unlike 343i, we respond immediately to criticism and need to vent.

I’m doing my best to stay objective, and I apologize if I’ve come across as hostile to any of you, especially Cobb.

Edit:
I think I should bring some humor to this issue with THIS Halo 4 screenshot (I obviously used Photoshop, but someone actually asked me on another site how to make speech bubbles in Theater Mode. Derp.) I made. We all feel this way right now, lol!

471

> It’s all very shady and disappointing, which is why I’m losing my objectivity. Perhaps the software is too limited, or perhaps it isn’t. As my dad would say, “It’s either one, or the other.” Either way, the combination of all the aforementioned issues are like punches. One can with stand a punch or two to the face, but when it becomes a massive combo, you can’t help feeling the effects of such abuse. That’s why this issue is still going on.
>
> 343i’s lack of communication is sowing so much discontent that we gamers are on the verge of taking our frustrations out on each other, because unlike 343i, we respond immediately to criticism and need to vent.

Indeed. I know there’s a lot of moving parts behind the scenes, but they do need to make more of an effort to communicate about problems with the community. They’ve improved considerably over the past several months, but they still have a good ways to go.

If I had to name one company that I’ve seen excel at this recently, it’d be Undead Labs. They provided updates on TUs, explanations for bugs both large and small, and explanations to address concerns even when it might weaken the game’s “image.” The example they’ve set would be a good one for many other devs, 343i included, to follow.

> I’m doing my best to stay objective, and I apologize if I’ve come across as hostile to any of you, especially Cobb.

It’s appreciated. I myself have gotten a little heated here, for which I apologize.

> Edit:
> I think I should bring some humor to this issue with THIS Halo 4 screenshot. We all feel this way right now, lol!

Lol, nice.

472

> > > Is how it doesn’t mention it doesn’t work in Spartan Ops on the marketplace really 343’s fault though? That’s Microsofts problem, however it could of been mentioned beforehand by 343
> >
> > Yes. Yes it is. 343i is Microsoft. Microsoft is 343i. 343i had a duty to inform Microsoft. Microsoft has a duty to inform potential buyers. If 343i didn’t tell Microsoft, how could they know? If 343i did tell Microsoft and Microsoft chose to let that little item slip from their product description, then 343i still had an obligation to tell fans in a timely fashion using every means necessary that fans of SPARTAN Ops may not be interested in the bundle.
>
> Microsoft may own and partially manage 343i, but they are different entities with different personnel and different stances on various issues. That said, I too am curious as to why they didn’t include a disclaimer on release, when the issue was the result of code limitations.
>
> At this point, I think the best thing 343i can do is:
>
> a. Explain the lack of a disclaimer on release.
>
> b. Add a disclaimer now – “War Games only” – and inform us of the addition.
>
> c. Explain how they plan on preventing this kind of mistake from happening again.
>
> Granted, there could be all sorts of policy or legal reasons preventing them from disclosing “post-mortem” information like that, or it could involve sensitive information (they can’t just walk in here and say “Sorry guys, John and Jane from PR screwed up so we gave them a pay cut”). If it is a policy or legal problem, though, then they should see about clearing it up, because as many of you have rightly pointed out, leaving the issue unaddressed does kill trust in the company.

They very well may be different entities with different personnel and different stances on various issues, but they should all share one overriding stance on this issue: It’s wrong to have our customers believe they are going to get something from us that we clearly know they aren’t going to get. Microsoft and 343i share joint and several culpability here. I’m not entirely sure what they should do, but acting like it didn’t happen isn’t it.

I would add to your list:

d. Support SPARTAN Ops. It’s part of multiplayer too, -Yoink!-.

Just to be clear, I’m not angry. Just disappointed. I thought 343i was going to be better than this.

473

> > Well we get an explanation, but not in a bulletin: Source
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi, DecadenceXx. HurryingCandy is correct. Due to the expansive sandbox featured in Spartan Ops missions, we have less flexibility to use additional memory for new content. We would have loved to implement it across the board but unfortunately that was too risky of a move (risky in this instance meaning there was a strong likelihood of breaking things).
> >
> > *hides
>
> Does anyone else think that it’s just a little odd that this particular thread <mark>has been hammering for a response for about a week,</mark> yet the response quoted above showed up in a brand new thread on this exact same subject almost immediately after the first two posts? The only reason this post appeared here is because SpartanT110 brought it here for all to see (thanks for that, by the way).

Two weeks, actually; I made this thread mere hours before the Champions DLC launched on the 20th.

474

I stand corrected. I actually remember seeing the title on the front page the day Champions launched and not paying any attention until it grew to 18 pages or so. That’s why it took me two days to catch up.

And this thread rarely left the front page, yet for some strange reason someone decided to start a new thread on the exact same subject and got a response from BS Angle (that’s right, I said angle) after just two posts.

I just smelled a rat there because 343i seems to have a unique way of handling public relations.

Again, not angry. Just disappointed.

475

Couldn’t there be a make shift tweak so we can see our own armour alone?

476

> Couldn’t there be a make shift tweak so we can see our own armour alone?

Most likely not, the way the engine is set up, if the issue is mod/texture based, it’ll either work for all players or no one.

In reply to Mr. Cobb, I say they need to do A-D, granted A-C is fine, but if they can pull off some more spartan OPs missions that support DLC armor, I’m all for it. But if they can’t, I’m not going to freak out like everyone else.

477

> Couldn’t there be a make shift tweak so we can see our own armour alone?

Or a free DLC so that others could view the content, like TDU 1 & 2 does. Although, they already can in War Games… Hmm…

At least the vanilla armor sets have some combos I do like.

Something I noticed with the 5 new armors, as well as the new armor skins, is it appears they have better normals maps. Cobb mistook an earlier post of mine for suggesting vanilla replacers, and rhetorically (I think) asked what armors/core content should be sacrificed. Now that I think about it, a patch that simply overwrites the existing normals maps with better ones like in the Champions DLC would be feasible. I am not suggesting higher resolution normals maps; I am just suggesting more refined maps. Better specularity maps are also desperately needed (the character models are too shiney).

However, I doubt (judging by 343i’s lack of interest) that any improvements in this area will be addressed, since 343i seems preoccupied with finalizing the next game for XBO.

478

> > > I just realized the sound bug of the regeneration field in Spartan Ops is still their. Yeah, 343 abandoned it long before we knew it.
> >
> > What is the bug with the regen exactly?
> >
> > I only ask because I use Regen in one of my SPOPS loadouts quite regularly, and I’m wondering if I’ve experienced it and not even realized it or just been lucky enough to avoid it.
>
> It’s a bug where you enter the field, fire your weapon, then your audio messes up, and all your actions still sound like you are in the field. I have never encountered it, but it sounds pretty cool.(to me personally, I love fooling with audio)
> I was unable to recreate my glitch. Still have no idea what happened. I saw a Mark V helmet, no other visor has such a flat look or well remembered shape.

I’ve heard something like that in War Games. To me it sounded like I was under water in a metal container. Really weird sounds. I didn’t make the association with the ReGen Field then, but do now.

479

Now i see why my friend’s said “343 Effed up halo 4” Despite its new cod aspect’s honestly 343 you can do better than treyarch or infinityward i mean really?

480

Could 343i’s apparent refusal to update the file descriptions for Champions Bundle on Microsoft Marketplace be that they are worried about being sued by angry customers for knowingly misleading them?

If they were to change the descriptions, they would be admitting that the previous description was misleading. The length of time from Bundle release to said description correction would raise questions.

I actually sent a PM to BS Angel about the file description, I have not received a response. So 343i can not be unaware that the file descriptions need editing. And that the longer they delay the correction, the more gamers will be purchasing the Bundle expecting to be able to use it with Spartan Ops.

I do not believe that every new Halo gamer is aware of Waypoint or that they need to dig thru the forums to confirm the limitations of the add-on game bundles. They will read the file descriptions on Microsoft Marketplace and think that the Bundle is for Halo 4.