Why, when I’m D2 and preform significantly better than someone who is D6, do I loose more % of my rank?
Will 343I ever fix this broken confusing rank system??
The key is to remember that the % change of CSR is INDEPENDENT of personal performance.
It doesn’t matter how many kills you get. How many flags your return. What your K/D is. It’s not looked at by the CSR system.
You CSR change is due to;
- The result (up with a win, down with a loss).
- The relative skill gap between you and your opponent (bigger change with upsets).
- The pull of your MMR (the CSR doesn’t like to move too far away).
If someone ranked up more (or lost less) it’s most likely because their MMR is higher (or lower) than their CSR.
This mainly happens post placement when your MMR curve is wide and your CSR is much lower than the mean of the MMR.
So it’s got nothing to do with your performance vs theirs. It’s just that they are on a different part of their ranking journey this season.
Your MMR is either lower than your CSR so your CSR drops more to get closer… or their CSR is higher than their CSR so it drops less to stay closer.
The system isn’t so much as broken - just very poorly communicated.
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And if you did genuinely perform better. As in against the opposition as opposed to compared to your team-mates. It will be reflected in your KPM for that game. This may be good enough to push your MMR up which can then influence your CSR in the NEXT game.
I agree it’s a bit confusing. But it does make sense from a ranking perspective. I don’t think it’s the best way 343 could have gone about it. But they made their choices and should be out here justifying them.
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The problem with the internal ranking is it doesn’t consider game types. Like you may be awesome at tactical slayer but mediocre at land grab. If you just played 5 matches in tactical slayer then move over to land grab theirs going to be a big difference in who your fighting against or vice versa.
I just tank my personal score as much as possible especially for events like LSS. You got to just tank your personal score as much as you can stand. I’m pretty sure coming in last in rumble pit enough times will drop your score without ruining other players games. It actually can be difficult self sabotaging so much, but I just make fun games out of it. Like I’ll shoot someone to get their attention and then run from them to see if I can evade them without dying. The key is just to avoid killing so your score is low in order to come in last. This makes games like LSS even playable so that you can do a challenge a two.
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It does. Your “global MMR” has offsets for each playlist. And each offset is a curve with a mu and sigma value. Early on those offsets rely heavily on the global values - but as they mature and narrow (over the course of 50 odd games) they act independently.
In the time it is taking your to Smurf your FFA playlist you could easily have just done the challenges. You are just doubling, or more, the time you are wasting not playing games you actually like.
It doesn’t make sense.
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Well my team loses matches anyway when I’m trying to run around and find the mangler in order to beat a challenge instead of running to a zone. My MMR is going to drop one way or another I’m just trying to spare my teammates.
What you said doesn’t sound correct. I am the guy that is real good at tactical slayer and after I spend time playing it my other mode matches are just insanely hard.
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Part of that is that you are probably in the “zone” for Tactical Slayer. Changing up your mindset and tactics from one game mode to the other isn’t necessarily a natural flow.
Secondly, if you are drifting in and out of some playlists sparsely - your MMR there is probably still wide and volatile. It will be affected by your global MMR curve - which is the bit that holds your recent game data. So your opponent form will swing hard (you are effectively still placing). If you played more games in those playlists the MMR curves will narrow and resist change.
Thirdly. If you don’t have an MMR in a certain playlist it will assume a starting MMR from a similar playlist. If that is the one you are best at you may find you are at a harder starting point. But again, with 50 or so games your MMR will come into it’s own.
Plus. For weapon challenges just play Fiesta. Relax and enjoy. The weapon will turn up. You can still play normally - just keeping a closer eye on the ground than you would normally.
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Darwi, I hope 342i is writing you a check for how much explaining your do for them.
Why is it good that what we do in unranked effects how rank is distributed?
Doesn’t this system just encourage manipulation and Smurf accounts?
It’s really discouraging to loose more rank than a a higher ranked player, when I preform significantly better than them in EVERY statistic for that game. Things like this really ruin my motivation to play. Which sucks because I really love Halo…
I’ve said to myself so many times…”Ah don’t mind your rank…it’s a silly system.” But being the competitive person I am, I can’t actually ignore the fact that I care about my rank….I wish I could, but there not much other content/progression to speak of in Infinite.
I wish they would do something to simply the system and make it more fair at face value.
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Who knows if 343 will ever fix the Rank Matchmaking System. Like look at MCC Rank Matchmaking it’s literally the same Playlist for years at end with nothing completely different then Social Matchmaking besides the MLG stuff that 98% of the community doesn’t even care about.
I’m sure it’s in the mail. 
It doesn’t really.
There is some weighting to form. Or at least time since last played. But that’s about the limit of it’s influence.
I believe TrueSkill2 is regarded as one of the best systems against Smurfs. But they still exist. Especially with FTP games.
The recent inclusion of a minimum number of games will help (at least in Ranked).
As for the squad manipulation - at least 343 have started to look at what they can do.
And it’s all just psychological.
How you (or they) played in that game has no bearing on the CSR change.
And if they gained more CSR the chances are they are even higher rank then what it looks (ie. their MMR is higher than their CSR).
There is absolutely no reason for 343 to show everyone’s rank change. It just confuses and upsets people when they see different amounts being given out with no context.
Please, take all the pride in your rank that you can.
Just accept that the number you see is going to wobble a bit. Your CSR will oscillate around your MMR (which is also tending to move a bit up and down).
Don’t get hung up on the actual number. It has a margin of error if you like. Just focus on the division and tier.
People used to be happy with a number 1 to 50 for their CSR, even though their MMR was 1-1800+ in the background.
- Change the scale. 1 to 1800+ just doesn’t work.
- Go back to 1 to 50.
- Try 1 to 100, or even 1 to 117.
- Bronze 1 to Onyx 6 (essentially 1 to 36).
- Make it 10 tiers per division; Bronze 1 to Onyx 10 (1 to 60).
-
Stop showing the change in CSR at the end of each game. And if you do have to show it, stop showing everyone elses.
-
Explain clearly how the CSR and MMR work. An updated FAQ of some sort. Get someone to fill Josh Menkes Halo 5 role here on waypoint. Give us access to auto generated graphs that define our rank (eg. our MMR curves for each playlist, or our KPM vs opposition ranks).
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The problem with explaining it this way is that player performance definitely matters despite your first explanation. You go on to say its also depicted by the pull of your mmr, and how do we change the pull of our mmr? Through our performances.
It can’t be looked at in 1 single game though, perhaps OP has much more context in his match history to depict why things are the way they are…but performance definitely always matters. It just can’t be viewed in 1 single match, and explained in a matter that would suggest the player could have easily went super negative, low damage, hardly any kills, no objective etc etc and it wouldnt have made a difference. It still makes a difference, but not in the immediate visible aftermath of the csr change.
Stuff you most likely know, but perhaps someone who doesn’t get it might just read what you wrote and think…wow…my performance doesnt matter? Sounds silly to explain it this way but…im sure someone could get confused and just think man might as well give up.
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I did mention it in the very next post.
I don’t know why I split it into two? Must have been rushing.
And I guess the OP’s focus was specifically on why didn’t they rank down more than someone else despite a perceived better performance in the game.
But I do respond to a lot of similar threads - and I do try and be consistent. In most, if not all, I will mention that KPM and (to a lesser extent) DPM have a weighted influence on your MMR.
Some threads are more about the post game CSR. Other’s about KPM / personal performance (eg. the recent thread about not playing the Objective).
Fair point.
Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads any of my posts.
I’ll make sure I mention KPM and MMR with similar posts from now on.
@Pheinted I’ve been working on a better reply to such threads. Something I can cut and paste to save a bit of time…
The CSR change at the end of each game does not take into account personal performance for that game. It doesn’t matter how many kills you get. How many flags you return. Or what your K/D was.
You post game CSR change comes down to three factors;
-
The result (it goes up with a win and down with a loss). To a maximum of 15 points.
-
The relative skill gap between you and your opponent (the bigger the upset the bigger the change).
-
The pull of your MMR (your CSR is always trying to move towards your MMR);
- If your MMR is higher then you will gain more on a win and lose less on a loss.
- If your MMR is lower then you will gain less on a win and lose more on a loss.
- If your MMR and CSR are close then you won’t change much in either direction.
Points 2 and 3 can be very different for different players - hence the “unequal” CSR distribution. Especially for players post placement (their MMR can be much higher than their CSR) and for those who have just won a few games vs equal or lower ranked opponents (their CSR can drift above their MMR).
Your personal performance is important. There is a weighting for kills per minute (KPM) that can move your MMR - and this may then affect the way your CSR moves in the next game. The important thing to remember is that it’s not about getting high KPM vs lower ranked opponents - it’s about matching the KPM (about 1.5) of the opponents ranked above you.
Interesting responses, thank you for the feedback.
I guess I need to work on improving my KPM without costing my team games.
I’ve always been a conservative player, focusing on having a positive KDA and making good call outs….its unfortunate Infinite doesn’t really reward that type of player very well in ranked.
I wish the rank system more so generally rewarded victories, team work and objectives over KPM.
I’m sure they do, but for some people it may seem overkill and they skim it and don’t absorb whatever you’re trying to explain and maybe just see it as you’re defending a “broken” system despite you almost always ending your posts acknowledging it could be done better.
It’s funny, but the game actually has a “help” tab when you are hovering over ranked multiplayer. (Push RS to view) It gives a brief explanation of how it works without getting too in depth about it. The very basic principle.
“Rank up when you’re performing better than expected.”
Everything combined is in that one sentence. Damage. Kpm. Kd. Winning etc. We stil gotta give it a fair shot even in matches we feel helpless in, because it matters just as much in terms of how badly you lose. Like despite not winning a match, despite a fat derank bar, the numbers get added to our overall stats. I believe that’s the whole purpose of there being a hidden rating. Because thats accounting for our performances.
“Perform better than expected” is also including the matches we lose. We can still overperform in a losing match, and just not see the effects of such performances in the immediate aftermath…but I believe this is why the game throws more matches at some players where they’re slight underdogs. (It knows they can handle the match, and is a chance to win as the under dog and gain csr since their mmr is ahead of their csr despite many losses. This is where their perormances still mattered. )Not always so cut and dry 50/50. It really depends case by case and how far along the player is, if they’re consecutively performing better than expected etc etc.
I read your last reply as well. Good stuff bro. Hopefully it helps anyone who becomes frustrated at the game over rank issues.
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TL;DR
The system is:
-Stupid
-Convoluted
-Unrewarding
-Remarkably Inferior to other Elo Systems
-Doesn’t represent play effort in any meaningful way
Its…
frankly just a bad system.
It doesn’t feel good to play in, since all these background calculations ultimately only represent themselves as utterly arbitrary to literally anyone who hasn’t done Doctoral Thesis level research on it.
If you take a game like League of Legends ELO system,
what your rank ultimately represents is the Culmination of effort and Skill. Since Climbing Ranks is LITEARLLY a climb, Wins always increase your Rank, Losses have a slight chance of decreasing your rank.
The only time the computer does any hard guessing work about your general skill, is when its putting you in placement matches at the beginning of the season.
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It’s silly that kills per minute has so much weight when that’s not even a stat on the scoreboard…
It does.
KPM is only a weighting. DPM is even less of a weighting.
The key is to win. Or more specifically to beat teams ranked above you when they are presented.
But it does. Those things are so important in maximising your rank.
Play at your ability without doing the call outs etc. and you will hit a certain rank ceiling.
Play at the same level but add in call outs and you will win more games and rank up!
Again. KPM is a weighting. So the wins are rewarded over KPM.
And if team-work gets you more wins then that will reward you more than KPM.
If you buff your KPM at the expense of winning the game - you will slide back down the ladder.
It’s not something you need to work on specifically.
It’s something that evolves naturally as you improve your skill and performance against the next level of player above you.
Another way to think about it is being able to hold your own and go 50:50 in a 1v1.
If your aim is Onyx then you need to be able to go toe to toe with an Onyx player and win 50% of the duals. That’s why they used to talk about a 1.2 to 1.5 KPM as the benchmark (10 to 12 kills in an 8 minute game).
Just keep working on getting better and the KPM evolves naturally.
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Great job, couldn’t have said it better.
Very detailed and well put, while being constrictive.
I hadn’t really thought of that.
When they ran the data on Halo 5 they looked at virtually every metric you can think of; K, K-D, K/D, A, KDA, damage, medals, scores, etc. And pretty much every one of them had a neutral rank prediction. ie. If you ranked a player up based on these metrics they would start to lose.
Some apparently had a negative influence (players should technically be ranked down based on their performance). I don’t know which ones, but I’m kind of hoping it was K/D.
The only metrics that were useful in ranking players up were KPM and (to a lesser influence) DPM. If you took players doing well in this metric and ranked them up they did well against the tougher opposition.
What would be very useful is a simple graph showing your KPM against opponent skill. That way you could see clearly where you started to drop off.
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