CAN Personal Ordnance Have a Place in Halo?

Games Halo 5: Guardians
#1

Let me start this post be acknowledging that removing Personal Ordnance Drops altogether is an entirely valid solution to the problem their inclusion created in Halo 4. However, that isn’t to say that they SHOULD be scrapped entirely. There are alternatives.

EDIT: To reiterate the ideas for how to implement PODs in different modes, here’s a bulleted list. I hope this makes things more easily understood. :slight_smile:

  • Campaign- “Ordnance Priority” moment scripted into sections of the missions, rather than being earned by kills/points. The weapon selection should also be predetermined and tied to that section/level.- Firefight- allow PODs to be earned similarly to how they are in Halo 4’s multiplayer (through “points”, rather than kills, as there are various kinds of enemies with different difficulties to take down). However, when a player dies, a fixed amount or percentage of points is subtracted as a penalty (same for betrayals). These ordnance drops should probably be limited to certain UNSC weapons, and should not be too easy to earn.- Spartan Ops- this mode’s PODs could be treated in either the Campaign or Firefight approaches listed above, due to essentially being a hybrid of both.- Multiplayer- the player earns Ordnance through kills, rather than points (to avoid earning PODs by getting Assist/Revenge/Comeback medals). This Ordnance Meter would also reset at death to prevent it from becoming an eventuality. The selection for PODs in MM should be limited to a fixed three weapons or abilities (my idea is of the Chaingun, Flamethrower, and Missile Pod from Halo 3). This limit would help take out the randomness of PODs’ current iteration, as you will know what options are available to you and your enemies.

By this, I mean PODs can make modes other than multiplayer more diverse and interesting, and have no negative effects (due to combating AI rather than other players). Campaign, for instance, can include sections where there are multiple ways to engage the enemies and the player is given a prompt to call down either a Sniper Rifle, Rocket Launcher, or Shotgun (just a generic selection) to supply the tools needed to maintain the player’s efficiency in various approaches he/she may want to take, as well as add a factor for replay value. This form of integration could also be applied to Spartan Ops and/or Firefight, with players earning ordnance in a similar system to Halo 4’s multiplayer. I feel that these options should have fixed selections determined by the scenario (area in the Campaign, maps and enemies in Spartan Ops/Firefight), but could have this be made into Random Ordnance through a new skull (I really do hope skulls must be scavenged throughout the Campaign and maybe even SpOps/Firefight).

As for multiplayer, PODs negatively impacted Halo, due to the combination of randomness in the selection and the reduction in map control’s influence caused by its inclusion. However, what if the selection was static in only 3 choices? Combine that and predicting enemy players’ choices could reduce the random factor almost to zero. Rethinking how players can earn ordnance in Matchmaking, what if rather than making it an eventuality (very rarely can you play a match of Infinity Slayer and not earn at least one POD), players lost all progress in obtaining their ordnance when they die? This would greatly disallow PODs to undermine the core principle of map control, but still manage to reward skilled players.

Now here’s how I think Personal Ordnance can be relevant, yet balanced with the essential staples of Halo’s multiplayer: making the only 3 options available in PODs to be the Chaingun, Flamethrower, and Missile Pod (the Support weapons of Halo 3). My reasoning behind this is that it will reward skilled players with a very potent weapon that would be most effective in a specific combat role, as well as limit their other abilities (slower movement speed; disabling of grenades, melee, and Armor Abilities/Equipment). Perhaps the inclusion of PODs in multiplayer should be restrained to only appear in certain gametypes (namely Big Team Slayer/BTB and other gametypes that use larger maps and vehicles)?

#2

I don’t see how PODs as they are could be applied to Campaign/SpOps without making the game feel arcadey.

It doesn’t make sense for the UNSC to throw PW at their soldiers just for being successful so that they can overkill some Grunt with a SpLaser. If it’s scripted you’re basically throwing out PODs entirely since it’s basically what we have already just with more control being given to the player on how to approach the situation.

#3

I really like the concept of personal ordnance. It gives me a sense of reward for playing well. That said, I acknowledge that the current system is flawed. But if personal ordnance was reduced to equipment, grenades, ammo, and the occasional powerup, would it really be that bad?

#4

As with in another thread, I agree that PODs can be beneficial to modes other than multiplayer. I’d be okay with them being in SpOps, Firefight, possibly Campaign, and maybe even as a Custom Games option.

However, I don’t think they should be in multiplayer in any form. They can come into play at a random time, and one team can gain a big advantage at a key point in the game just because they got lucky to get ordnance at the end of the game. A lot of players wouldn’t use any of those ordnance drops either. I’d prefer to have my BR or power weapon rather than any of those 3 weapons. I rarely picked them up in H3, and if I did, it was the Missile Pod just to get rid vehicles at the beginning of the game.

#5

> I don’t see how PODs as they are could be applied to Campaign/SpOps without making the game feel arcadey.
>
> It doesn’t make sense for the UNSC to throw PW at their soldiers just for being successful so that they can overkill some Grunt with a SpLaser. If it’s scripted you’re basically throwing out PODs entirely since <mark>it’s basically what we have already just with more control being given to the player on how to approach the situation</mark>.

Wasn’t that the premise of PODs in the first place? Also, what makes it nonsensical to drop Master Chief a weapon that he says he needs to complete his objective? I’m not simply talking about dropping these things when the only threat is a few patrols of Elites, Grunts, and Jackals. I’m talking about when there are heavily shielded/armored enemies like (hopefully improved) Promethean Knights, Covenant vehicles like Wraiths or Locusts, and other things of that nature. It certainly shouldn’t throw these opportunities around at any time.

#6

No, I would rather see PODs gone then even including them in firefight or SOps. Besides, PODs are too similar to kill streaks in COD and I would rather not have to fight against two SAWs and several FRGs in 2-3 minutes of one another.

The only time I do like them is when I get a Binary Rifle…

#7

> As with in another thread, I agree that PODs can be beneficial to modes other than multiplayer. I’d be okay with them being in SpOps, Firefight, possibly Campaign, and maybe even as a Custom Games option.
>
> However, I don’t think they should be in multiplayer in any form. They can come into play at a random time, and one team can gain a big advantage at a key point in the game just because they got lucky to get ordnance at the end of the game. A lot of players wouldn’t use any of those ordnance drops either. I’d prefer to have my BR or power weapon rather than any of those 3 weapons. I rarely picked them up in H3, and if I did, it was the Missile Pod just to get rid vehicles at the beginning of the game.

Fair enough, but I don’t think my suggestion would allow luck to play as a factor in obtaining such rewards (due to losing all progress of “earning” PODs at the time of death, thus resetting at respawn). Also, your point of not preferring to use them over standard weapons in general engagements was an intentional point of mine. As you said, they can be used for very specific situations (like destroying enemy vehicles) and can be invaluable to those skilled enough to obtain them.

With the Chaingun serving as a heavy anti-infantry weapon, the Flamethrower as an area-denial weapon, and the Missile Pod as an anti-vehicular weapon (all at a disadvantage in some regards to the mainsteam arsenal), they could be relevant without being abused at random times (you should be able to tell when a player may be eligible for a POD based on his/her performance, as well as what support weapon he/she will choose based on the situation at hand, such as a Mantis being close by warranting a Missile Pod).

#8

I voted for no.

Personal Ordnance Drops ruin multiplayer by encouraging camping (why bother going to grab more ammo when you could just have a brand new Shotgun delivered to you?), resulting in frustrating gameplay (It’s been almost every match in Infinity Slayer where my opposing team now has several Energy Swords, Binary Rifles, and Fuel Rod Guns - thus making it next to impossible to effectively win), and it destroys the concept of Map-Control (again, why hold out on a position to gain the upper hand of combat when you could just have a Rocket Launcher delivered straight to your feet?)

However, some say that it could work in Campaign and Spartan Ops… I disagree.

Part of the skill and strategy in Campaign is having to find arms and ammo within the level if you’re planning on destroying that unstoppable Wraith. If weapons could be delivered straight to your feet, what would happen to the levels of strategy and planning that must be used in order to triumph? Effectively eliminating that Wraith would be nothing short of a piece of cake if that Rocket Launcher was handed to you like candy instead of being placed in a strategic location. Why bother picking up that dead Elite’s Energy Sword if you could just get a Shotgun for free?

It would effect level layout, and it would shatter much of the challenge and strategy involved in Campaign and Spartan Ops. Personal Ordnance will never be a good idea.

#9

I personally don’t see any reason not include Personal Ordnance options at least in custom game options. Should the concept make its return to multiplayer, I like the idea of your options being between the support weapons you listed (they’re big, it makes sense why they would have to be dropped down).

If Personal Ordnance was limited to the support weapons and possibly power-ups (Overhshield, Camo, Speed Boost) then I think my problems with it would pretty much be rectified.

#10

> No, I would rather see PODs gone then even including them in firefight or SOps. Besides, PODs are too similar to kill streaks in COD and I would rather not have to fight against two SAWs and several FRGs in 2-3 minutes of one another.
>
> The only time I do like them is when I get a Binary Rifle…

Did you even read the post in its entirety? I explicitly voiced that I don’t think weapons like SAWs or Binary Rifles should be an option in PODs, nor that progression in getting them should remain after a player dies (thus solving the issue of “having to fight against two SAWs and several FRGs in 2-3 minutes of one another”).

#11

> I really like the concept of personal ordnance. It gives me a sense of reward for playing well. That said, I acknowledge that the current system is flawed. But if personal ordnance was reduced to equipment, grenades, ammo, and the occasional powerup, would it really be that bad?

Yes, it would. It would just be a smaller version of the current problem. The problem right now is randomness. With the game tied like 48-48, you could get lucky timing and get a rocket launcher, then it’s pretty much game over. It’s one thing to have good map control and grab the rockets when they spawn on the map - that’s smart strategy. It’s luck to get the 5 points you needed for ordnance that you can call in anywhere. It would be the same issue with Equipment, AAs, or power-ups. If someone gets lucky timing and ends up getting an overshield in a tie game, that makes a huge difference.

The problem with PODs is not that they contain power weapons. You can get PWs from certain locations on the map as well. The problem is that you get something random delivered to a random location at a random time in the game.

With PWs on map, they spawn in ONE location, it will be ONE specific weapon, and it will spawn at consistent intervals (typically in Halo 3, 120 seconds). This makes it consistent. Consistency is desperately needed to make a game competitive, and is something that will typically fly uner the radar of casual players (do you think someone playing for fun cares that Rockets spawn every 120 seconds?) It makes no difference to casual players, but benefits competitive players. It should be an easy decision to remove them.

#12

> > I really like the concept of personal ordnance. It gives me a sense of reward for playing well. That said, I acknowledge that the current system is flawed. But if personal ordnance was reduced to equipment, grenades, ammo, and the occasional powerup, would it really be that bad?
>
> Yes, it would. It would just be a smaller version of the current problem. The problem right now is randomness. With the game tied like 48-48, you could get lucky timing and get a rocket launcher, then it’s pretty much game over. It’s one thing to have good map control and grab the rockets when they spawn on the map - that’s smart strategy. It’s luck to get the 5 points you needed for ordnance that you can call in anywhere. It would be the same issue with Equipment, AAs, or power-ups. If someone gets lucky timing and ends up getting an overshield in a tie game, that makes a huge difference.
>
> The problem with PODs is not that they contain power weapons. You can get PWs from certain locations on the map as well. The problem is that you get something random delivered to a random location at a random time in the game.
>
> With PWs on map, they spawn in ONE location, it will be ONE specific weapon, and it will spawn at consistent intervals (typically in Halo 3, 120 seconds). This makes it consistent. Consistency is desperately needed to make a game competitive, and is something that will typically fly uner the radar of casual players (do you think someone playing for fun cares that Rockets spawn every 120 seconds?) It makes no difference to casual players, but benefits competitive players. It should be an easy decision to remove them.

You’re right. But it’s just for the Infinity mode, and maybe some Action Sack gametypes. As long as Halo 5 puts most of the focus on the traditional gameplay, then why does it matter if a few gametypes have personal ordnance?

#13

> Yes, it would. It would just be a smaller version of the current problem. The problem right now is randomness. With the game tied like 48-48, you could get lucky timing and get a rocket launcher, then it’s pretty much game over. It’s one thing to have good map control and grab the rockets when they spawn on the map - that’s smart strategy. It’s luck to get the 5 points you needed for ordnance that you can call in anywhere. It would be the same issue with Equipment, AAs, or power-ups. If someone gets lucky timing and ends up getting an overshield in a tie game, that makes a huge difference.
>
> The problem with PODs is not that they contain power weapons. You can get PWs from certain locations on the map as well. The problem is that you get something random delivered to a random location at a random time in the game.
>
> With PWs on map, they spawn in ONE location, it will be ONE specific weapon, and it will spawn at consistent intervals (typically in Halo 3, 120 seconds). This makes it consistent. Consistency is desperately needed to make a game competitive, and is something that will typically fly uner the radar of casual players (do you think someone playing for fun cares that Rockets spawn every 120 seconds?) It makes no difference to casual players, but benefits competitive players. It should be an easy decision to remove them.

How is it “random” to obtain something that you’ve earned in the course of one life? If I were to get, let’s say 6 kills without dying, that’s not random; its personal skill. It doesn’t lack consistency, as it wouldn’t be accumulating this through random and pointless medals like “Distraction”, and so would only be available when a player can perform consistently in combat.

Rather than getting a lucky stick and earning six medals like “Close Call”, “Hail Mary”, or “Revenge” to go toward this count, the player would have to focus on the imperative need to survive encounters. The location isn’t quite “random” either, per say. It would be dropped at the player’s location, but you should be able to know where said player is. The timing isn’t “random” because it would be available when a player has achieved a particular number of kills.

Its true you have no way of knowing when a player can obtain ordnance in its current state, but that’s due to the accumulation system also counting medals, rather than kills alone. When you see a player has survived through multiple encounters in a row, you should be aware of the the threat he poses as he continues.

#14

> Fair enough, but I don’t think my suggestion would allow luck to play as a factor in obtaining such rewards <mark>(due to losing all progress of “earning” PODs at the time of death, thus resetting at respawn).</mark> Also, your point of not preferring to use them over standard weapons in general engagements was an intentional point of mine. As you said, they can be used for very specific situations (like destroying enemy vehicles) and can be invaluable to those skilled enough to obtain them.
>
> With the Chaingun serving as a heavy anti-infantry weapon, the Flamethrower as an area-denial weapon, and the Missile Pod as an anti-vehicular weapon (all at a disadvantage in some regards to the mainsteam arsenal), they could be relevant without being abused at random times (you should be able to tell when a player may be eligible for a POD based on his/her performance, as well as what support weapon he/she will choose based on the situation at hand, such as a Mantis being close by warranting a Missile Pod).

You never mentioned that in the OP. If you did I somehow missed it twice. Nevermind that, I found it. Took 3 tries but I got it lol.

As for being able to get them when you need them, it would almost be useless. What are the chances you’re going to get a streak with a Mantis hanging around? Typically you would need one of those because whatever it is useful against is currently taking control. If it’s taking control, you’re losing it. Cahnces are, if you’re losing control, you probably won’t be able to get enough of a point streak to earn it.

And I doubt anyone who gets one would be patient enough to wait all game just for a specific situation to arise. I’d probably get frustrated with this huge ordnance symbol in the middle of my screen for the whole game. Not to mention I wouldn’t be able to change grenades (unless they removed sprint and put grenade swapping back on A [Bumper Jumper] however I like being able to go back and forth between grenades). In some people’s cases, they may get so excited about getting ordnance that they call it in instantly.

#15

> You’re right. But it’s just for the Infinity mode, and maybe some Action Sack gametypes. As long as Halo 5 puts most of the focus on the traditional gameplay, then why does it matter if a few gametypes have personal ordnance?

Why does it matter if we don’t have it at all then? It’s not a fitting addition to Halo, and it’s had horrible reception.

What is the benefit to keeping this feature around when no good comes from it; other than making players feel special for getting it, when the majority of the game already has the complete different ideology on rewarding players? All it does then is further a divide between the community by endorsing a different base gametype for CoD fans or really casual players.

We do not need this.

#16

> > Yes, it would. It would just be a smaller version of the current problem. The problem right now is randomness. With the game tied like 48-48, you could get lucky timing and get a rocket launcher, then it’s pretty much game over. It’s one thing to have good map control and grab the rockets when they spawn on the map - that’s smart strategy. It’s luck to get the 5 points you needed for ordnance that you can call in anywhere. It would be the same issue with Equipment, AAs, or power-ups. If someone gets lucky timing and ends up getting an overshield in a tie game, that makes a huge difference.
> >
> > The problem with PODs is not that they contain power weapons. You can get PWs from certain locations on the map as well. The problem is that you get something random delivered to a random location at a random time in the game.
> >
> > With PWs on map, they spawn in ONE location, it will be ONE specific weapon, and it will spawn at consistent intervals (typically in Halo 3, 120 seconds). This makes it consistent. Consistency is desperately needed to make a game competitive, and is something that will typically fly uner the radar of casual players (do you think someone playing for fun cares that Rockets spawn every 120 seconds?) It makes no difference to casual players, but benefits competitive players. It should be an easy decision to remove them.
>
> How is it “random” to obtain something that you’ve earned in the course of one life? If I were to get, let’s say 6 kills without dying, that’s not random; its personal skill. It doesn’t lack consistency, as it wouldn’t be accumulating this through random and pointless medals like “Distraction”, and so would only be available when a player can perform consistently in combat.
>
> Rather than getting a lucky stick and earning six medals like “Close Call”, “Hail Mary”, or “Revenge” to go toward this count, the player would have to focus on the imperative need to survive encounters. The location isn’t quite “random” either, per say. It would be dropped at the player’s location, but you should be able to know where said player is. The timing isn’t “random” because it would be available when a player has achieved a particular number of kills.
>
> Its true you have no way of knowing when a player can obtain ordnance in its current state, but that’s due to the accumulation system also counting medals, rather than kills alone. When you see a player has survived through multiple encounters in a row, you should be aware of the the threat he poses as he continues.

I was responding to halojunky’s suggestion that ordnance wouldn’t be so bad if it was just grenades, ammo, equipment, and power-ups. Based on what he said, I assume he meant keep things the same, just remove weapons from the possible ordnances.

As for randomness, I mean it as in a sense that in any particular game, ordnance can be called in at any place on the map, and happen at any point of the game. I could run in and get an overkill at the start, and have ordnance 30 seconds into the game, or I could get it 2 minutes, 5, 8, 10 minutes in, or with 30 seconds left.

With weapons on map, Rockets will spawn in one spot (take Pit for example, always in long hall) and will spawn at consistent intervals. If a game is 10 minutes long and someone grabs rockets 15 seconds in, they will spawn at 7:45, 5:45, 3:45 and 1:45 (assuming they were picked up immediately).

#17

> <mark>You never mentioned that in the OP. If you did I somehow missed it twice.</mark>
>
> As for being able to get them when you need them, it would almost be useless. What are the chances you’re going to get a streak with a Mantis hanging around? Typically you would need one of those because whatever it is useful against is currently taking control. If it’s taking control, you’re losing it. Cahnces are, if you’re losing control, you probably won’t be able to get enough of a point streak to earn it.
>
> And I doubt anyone who gets one would be patient enough to wait all game just for a specific situation to arise. I’d probably get frustrated with this huge ordnance symbol in the middle of my screen for the whole game. Not to mention I wouldn’t be able to change grenades (unless they removed sprint and put grenade swapping back on A [Bumper Jumper] however I like being able to go back and forth between grenades). In some people’s cases, they may get so excited about getting ordnance that they call it in instantly.

> <mark>Rethinking how players can earn ordnance in Matchmaking, what if rather than making it an eventuality (very rarely can you play a match of Infinity Slayer and not earn at least one POD), players lost all progress in obtaining their ordnance when they die?</mark>

The system isn’t designed to make you dependent on these weapons, only to reward the more skilled players in ways that they can use wisely and effectively. It, by no means, is an addition that would make it less likely for the Spartan Laser to spawn on the central hill on Valhalla/Ragnarok, for example. As for the ordnance icon on the HUD getting in the way, it could be something to toggle on or off with ‘UP’ on the D-pad. This would allow players to cycle through grenade types and, when they’ve earned it/found the right time to call it down, they can simply toggle the ordnance menu and select their reward for patience, consistency, and overall skill.

#18

> You’re right. But it’s just for the Infinity mode, and maybe some Action Sack gametypes. As long as Halo 5 puts most of the focus on the traditional gameplay, then why does it matter if a few gametypes have personal ordnance?

Then it becomes the question of why do it at all? They could just scrap it completely. I’d rather see them spend time making a good, traditional Halo MP experience, rather than waste time working on balancing a mechanic that will be in a minor playlist.

#19

> I was responding to halojunky’s suggestion that ordnance wouldn’t be so bad if it was just grenades, ammo, equipment, and power-ups. Based on what he said, I assume he meant keep things the same, just remove weapons from the possible ordnances.
>
> As for randomness, I mean it as in a sense that in any particular game, ordnance can be called in at any place on the map, and happen at any point of the game. <mark>I could run in and get an overkill at the start, and have ordnance 30 seconds into the game, or I could get it 2 minutes, 5, 8, 10 minutes in, or with 30 seconds left.</mark>
>
> With weapons on map, Rockets will spawn in one spot (take Pit for example, always in long hall) and will spawn at consistent intervals. If a game is 10 minutes long and someone grabs rockets 15 seconds in, they will spawn at 7:45, 5:45, 3:45 and 1:45 (assuming they were picked up immediately).

Is that random? Being rewarded for your individual skill? I don’t think so, but rather dependent on personal performance. Being consistent by time and consistent by skill are certainly two different things, but that doesn’t make one more random than the other. They are both determined by something that can be seen, whether a timer or a pile of enemy players’ bodies.

Its true that time is a concrete measurement of such things, but do you really require something to be such an absolute of predictability for it to work? At least in a “Social” playlist, I don’t think this concept would cause the problems that you’re afraid of.

#20

If I can requisition DMR ammo, LR ammo, or a set of pulse grenades/things that can be set in loadouts, I think ordnance can be balanced.