Can 343i help us forge normal size maps?

I have asked through back channels and was told only that if a change were to be made I would hear about it in the news items. I have waited for some time, so now I will try this post to try to get some definitive answer from 343i as to whether this might be something that they are talking about or just give up asking altogether.

From my analysis on the spawn engine’s influencers, I concluded that the publishers’ attempts to eliminate spawning by an enemy has unbalanced the influencers so dramatically that CTF is broken and spawn traps are now readily accomplished - especially with zones.

But the most significant problem with spawn traps is that the enemy proximity influencer is way too large on the forge canvases to allow for forging small or even medium size maps.

So I am asking here at waypoint, can 343i make an update to the game (perhaps the next title update?) so that a new trait zone property overrides the enemy proximity radius with a new radius to allow forgers the ability to customize the radius to their maps’ sizes, geometries, and to the game types being used for those maps?

This new trait property would make the enhancement optional and all current maps fully compatible. Without the trait zone property being adjusted, the maps will function as though it never existed. This property would only be an override to the canvas’ default proximity radius.

I don’t care if the property trait applies only within the volume of the trait zone or the entire canvas. Just being available would be wonderful.

I support this thread completely. I would love to be able to have more control over spawning in this way.

A trait zone to control respawn attributes. Nice idea.

Has 343i ever given us spawning influencers the way Bungie/JonnyOThan did for REACH?

I’m still using the half and half team respawn zones for Slayer/CTF and haven’t noticed anything bad, yet. I use one anti-respawn area per team for flag away. Those seem to be working too.

I hope the 343i spawning team comes through with solid info. I also hope that info doesn’t get filtered by lay people.

> A trait zone to control respawn attributes. Nice idea.
>
> Has 343i ever given us spawning influencers the way Bungie/JonnyOThan did for REACH?
>
> I’m still using the half and half team respawn zones for Slayer/CTF and haven’t noticed anything bad, yet. I use one anti-respawn area per team for flag away. Those seem to be working too.
>
> I hope the 343i spawning team comes through with solid info. I also hope that info doesn’t get filtered by lay people.

I was thinking this morning about how bungie’s JonnyOThan was very busy answering questions and he decided to start ForgeWorld as a place for official information on the spawn system. The closest I have seen thus far is from CertainAffinity’s youtube channel. I asked them some questions, and they were able to answer some of my questions, some they were not able to answer (they didn’t want to give away the secret sauce to their spawn engine), and some questions they never bothered to answer at all (and I get the feeling they are no longer answering my questions, so I gave up asking). And given that 343i has about 300 employees, I would have thought they could spare a part time resource to help teach us…

As for making a map to play CTF with respawn zones coving half and half, I can tell you that either your map is making spawn traps too easy or your map is simply way too large. That is the math behind it, and it is really simple and straight forward. You don’t discover the spawn traps by playing the map, you play the map to confirm the spawn traps you discover by analyzing the maps.

As for solid information, they don’t seem to be interested in providing much of any information at all. But when I asked them how close was my analysis of the influencer weights, they told me that while they could not confirm the material, my analysis was nearly complete. I don’t know what I am missing or what is off a little. I don’t care any more, because I know that the enemy proximity is the deal breaker and needs to be fixed before small or even medium size maps can work right.

> As for making a map to play CTF with respawn zones coving half and half, I can tell you that either your map is making spawn traps too easy or your map is simply way too large. That is the math behind it, and it is really simple and straight forward. You don’t discover the spawn traps by playing the map, you play the map to confirm the spawn traps you discover by analyzing the maps.

How would you classify the middle Forge Island in relative size?

Small
Medium
Large

> > As for making a map to play CTF with respawn zones coving half and half, I can tell you that either your map is making spawn traps too easy or your map is simply way too large. That is the math behind it, and it is really simple and straight forward. You don’t discover the spawn traps by playing the map, you play the map to confirm the spawn traps you discover by analyzing the maps.
>
> How would you classify the middle Forge Island in relative size?
>
> Small
> Medium
> Large

Take a look at this chart. It is not complete, I am still working on it. What I have thus far shows the forge canvases relative to the other canvases in playable area (square forge units). Those other canvases are shown in what 343i has used in various playlist party sizes. So this gives you an idea of where the forge islands stand relative to the various canvases in the different party sizes.

But you must also keep in mind that all the forge canvases use a PE radii of 9.5 units. Look at Adrift, it has a PE radii of 5.5U and Haven 7.0U. Ragnarok’s PE radii is 12.0U.

You can see a pattern. The medium island is on the low end of BTB and high end of 4v4. The PE primary is probably okay for 4v4. For 8v8 I don’t believe it is. and I say probably or probably not because geometry plays a part as well. the more geometry that you forge into the map that can act as cover for spawning and that cover is everywhere then you can eliminate spawn traps. If your map has a lot of open areas along the edges, then you can more readily create spawn traps.

But once you introduce zones, even the medium island is no longer adequate in size for 4v4 IMO. Zones essentially reduce the area that a team has to control in order to induce spawn traps.

> > > As for making a map to play CTF with respawn zones coving half and half, I can tell you that either your map is making spawn traps too easy or your map is simply way too large. That is the math behind it, and it is really simple and straight forward. You don’t discover the spawn traps by playing the map, you play the map to confirm the spawn traps you discover by analyzing the maps.
> >
> > How would you classify the middle Forge Island in relative size?
> >
> > Small
> > Medium
> > Large
>
> Take a look at this chart. It is not complete, I am still working on it. What I have thus far shows the forge canvases relative to the other canvases in playable area (square forge units). Those other canvases are shown in what 343i has used in various playlist party sizes. So this gives you an idea of where the forge islands stand relative to the various canvases in the different party sizes.
>
> But you must also keep in mind that all the forge canvases use a PE radii of 9.5 units. Look at Adrift, it has a PE radii of 5.5U and Haven 7.0U. Ragnarok’s PE radii is 12.0U.
>
> You can see a pattern. The medium island is on the low end of BTB and high end of 4v4. The PE primary is probably okay for 4v4. For 8v8 I don’t believe it is. and I say probably or probably not because geometry plays a part as well. the more geometry that you forge into the map that can act as cover for spawning and that cover is everywhere then you can eliminate spawn traps. If your map has a lot of open areas along the edges, then you can more readily create spawn traps.
>
> But once you introduce zones, even the medium island is no longer adequate in size for 4v4 IMO. Zones essentially reduce the area that a team has to control in order to induce spawn traps.

I know from our previous contacts that you are no fly by night bull poo artist. I accept you have done your homework. I’m just having a bit of trouble understanding it all. From what you are saying, I gather I would have to run a very organized test with my friends to find out if there are spawning problems on my map. I might be one of the very few people that could do that but it would still be difficult to arrange. Maybe my geometry is just enough to prevent problems. Groan.

> … Maybe my geometry is just enough to prevent problems. Groan.

Think of it this way. If you actually make a CTF map of appropriate size that eliminates spawn traps and cross map spawning, you would be the first. So if you don’t succeed, I would not worry about it. The math is stacked against us forgers to begin with. I just want to hear from 343i that they are looking at this for us. That was the purpose of this thread.

Is there even a chance of someone from 343i replying that they even read this thread?