Bungie & Community - How to Improve Reach Matchmaking (Long Read)

Games Other Halo
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This is a thread inspired by and is a response to GamersForChange: Thought Talk 1 How would you fix Halo Reach? and Thought Talk 5 What Can Be Done To Increase The Size of the Halo Community? To the people about to read this, if you find something you don’t like about this thread then first finish reading the thread before replying. I thank you if you endure reading this long thread as it took me a little more than 8 hours to complete. ^-^

Honestly, lots of people say that Reach plays fine when it comes to maps and overall gameplay. And I can understand that you can like the stuff that makes the game really fun. I personally like Invasion, new Multi-team(3x4), Squad Battle, and MLG. But alot of things are unbalanced because of Armor Abilities/Loadouts, Map layouts, and weapon layouts and lots of people don’t seem to understand that.

Halo CE & Halo 2

I happen to hear alot of comments about how Halo CE and Halo 2 being the best, most competitive, and etc. Those games really started Halo in the first place. Halo CE started this gigantic storyline that is now consists of books, comics, short-movies, and games. And Halo 2 made the home of online multi-player and fun that has evolved over the years with Halo 3 and Halo: Reach.

But you have to understand that some things the games makes those games unbalanced. And I am talking about the CE Pistol and H2 BR. Longtime fans praise the CE Pistol for being a skilled weapon and having fast skilled times and the H2 BR was excellent for its button combos to do a double shot. But those are “broken” weapons.

Just because a weapon brings fast kill times doesn’t make it good and people don’t understand that. The CE Pistol from videos seems to be more of a 1v1 spam weapon as it made most of the weapons in the Sandbox unusable. The H2 Br had button combos to do a double shot but button combos doesn’t make for a skilled player even though anyone could do it.

Even though the H3 Br and DMR(pacing) has slower kill times, it lead to more team shooting and made Halo more of a skilled team based game. Even though I am talking about the weapon of choice but what I am trying to bring up is the weapons sandbox. Bungie over the years has made the weapon sandbox more usuable by lowering the power of the BR & Pistol and made it work with the maps they made.

Map & Weapon Layouts and Armor Abilites

As much as it painful to keep hearing this lots of time I have to point this out. The Map layouts, weapon layouts, and Armor Abilities just don’t seem to work together.

The reason I say this is because of things like Jet-packing Reflection, Uncaged, Swordbase, and most other maps. Teams with Shotgun and sword and camping Third floor health on Countdown, Ring 2 on Asylum, and Green lift on Swordbase. And areas of maps that are completely unused because people are “drawn” to the same areas of the maps like Reflection and Swordbase.

Everyone knows that the weapons are better than the previous games but they don’t seem to work with the different gameplay that Reach brings. For example, the Shotgun is much more powerful and doesn’t work on maps that Bungie planned. With Sprint it makes for a very powerful combination as you can get up to 18kills easily with just one shotgun. Players are smart and take advantage of the maps and weapons and it just shows.

Now alot of people say that Halo 3 wasn’t that good and was a disgrace to the series. But I like Halo 3. Why? The maps were balanced because the weapons and equipments coincided with the maps. When it came to regular or vehicles action, equipment and weapons aided the players in things, not save them from the inevitable from almost anything. If you think Halo 3 had weird jump and dumb spread on the Br then fine. But at least remember that Bungie put their time to make the Map layout, Weapon layout, and Equipment work with each other instead of breaking each other.

Bungie had the almost the right mindset when designing the multi-player map like Powerhouse which plays fine but their other map creations were destroyed by Armor Abilities because it wasn’t balanced for them. And the weapon layouts aren’t balanced for Reach’s gameplay like it worked in the previous games(Reflection & Asylum).

Solution #1

The right solution to make maps more balanced and work better with the different weapons in the sandbox and Armor Abilities is: Armor Abilities as Pick-ups. It might seem outragoues to change the current style of gameplay to be more like MLG. But I assure you that it works well with the maps and with the right plan you can make the maps more balanced when it comes to gameplay.

Bungie is working on their project “Crimson” and Jeremiah’s team probably doesn’t have the time to work on this type of idea. A few times I mentioned in the forums that Bungie should let community try to make their own “solution” to make Multi-player more balanced. I honestly think by allowing players to work together like Team Classic to create their own solution will be a good attempt and is interesting even though it might not work out.

Obviously Jeremiah won’t say anything but really what I am looking for from him is a “lets see you try” or “take your best shot” from Jeremiah to let people know that he wants to see what they are looking for even if he doesn’t implement it.

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Ranking System

Everyone knows the Ranking System that is in Halo: Reach. Play matchmaking, campaign, or firefight to rank up to the next rank with Credits. Credits also serves as cash to make you be able to buy your favorite Armor to dress up your Spartan look like the next American Spartan Idol. But it has its praises and drawbacks.

The Credit system makes players rank up without having to play the Ranking system which makes it easier for new players to rank up along with others. Also system has been made to make it that all players has a chance to get their favorite Armor through time/dedication instead of working hard to earn your Armor. But then comes the drawbacks.

Because everyone can rank up the same without having to play ranked, there is no incentive to play Arena. This generally left a hole in Arena even though there is a normal population of 1,600 players. And ranking has become to one-sided towards casual players. In Halo 3 people had to play Ranked to progress in Ranks which is absent in Reach and just leads to players who have “high” ranks but plays like a “low” rank person.

The arrival of the Arena system was truly a excellent idea. Yes, it’s previous formula wasn’t that effective as it made people go Lone Wolf instead working as a team. And now Arena deserves to be called a superior ranking to Halo 2 & 3 as it gets rid of boosters and derankers. And because of the revising that Bungie made it has made a open door for objective that was absent in the previous Arena.

Service Record

As a person who played Halo 3 as a casual person, I would often look at the Service Record as it encouraged me to play more to rank up. As I progressed in the Service Record Ranking System I hit a wall that was called “Skill”. I had to play in the Ranked category to progress further if I wanted to rank up. And thats what got me to love the Ranked atmosphere that was different from Social play.

Bungie should at least try to make a update, to bring a upgraded system of the Service Record to bring more people to Arena. It gave people bragging rights and showed off their dedication as a skilled player. I don’t understand the comments about “making Arena division appear in every playlist” but the Service Record is what brought people’s attention to Ranked in Halo 3.

Solution #2

Add a upgraded Service Record similar to Halo 3 to make players want to play Ranked. This will increase Arena population and make the playlist more competitive. As I said in my Service Record topic that “it gave people bragging rights and showed off their dedication as a skilled player.”

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I agree with everything you posted :slight_smile:

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> I agree with everything you posted :slight_smile:

Thanks. But I would like to hear your opinion.

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You obviously have never played CE if you think the Pistol in it was broken.

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> You obviously have never played CE if you think the Pistol in it was broken.

Agreed, especially if you think it made all other weapons “obsolete” lol. Misinformed people talk about the Ce pistol like a 3SK was common, but it wasnt. A 5SK was common and by that I mean you usually had to fire like 5 shots to kill someone. The CE sandbox was the most balanced in the series in my opinion. All of the weapons were powerful and effective there were no nerfed weapons. This made for faster and more fun gameplay that everyone could enjoy. The same thing goes for Halo 2 the H2 Br was in no way unbalanced, it was the utility weapon and the specialllized in mid-range combat just like the Ce pistol.

This whole talk about what is balanced and what is not is ridiculous. Unbalanced is like if someone is spammed down by a DMR user with poor aim while the other player aims perfectly with good cadence and loses that battle. That is a unbalanced game mechanic because that is not supposed to happen. People throw around these terms what is balanced and what is not its all subjective, and based on your perception not reality. We should be focusing on making the real unbalanced game mechanics balanced like reducing randomness and luck in Reach gameplay.

As for your other points Arena may have reduced cheaters but nobody plays it like 2k compared to 60k for the 1-50 ranked playlists. You cant erradicate cheating in a XBL game, people will always find loopholes and exploit them. At least 1-50 attracted players and made for close and competitve games. People are not playing Arena because Reach’s game mechanics are not very well suited for competitve gameplay, its not because of visible rank or anything like that thats naive to think people would only play for those things.

I agree with you is that Arena rankings should be more visible in one way or another. And I also agree that AA’s do ruin some map layouts and make it so you can just jetpack to one point without thinking, or sprint/evade across the map without having to take into account enemy positions as you have a spammable escape tool to get you out of most situations. Reflection(Ivory Tower remake) was not made with a jetpack in mind, and either was the other remakes in Reach. Equipment could be placed strategically and fought over, while AA’s are given to you off spawn and do ruin certain aspects of maps. Reach is full of random game elements that make for gimmicky and frusating gameplay at times.

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> You obviously have never played CE if you think the Pistol in it was broken.

Agreed. The pistol in CE was the best in any Halo game.

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> This whole talk about what is balanced and what is not is ridiculous. Unbalanced is like if someone is spammed down by a DMR user with poor aim while the other player aims perfectly with good cadence and loses that battle. That is a unbalanced game mechanic because that is not supposed to happen. People throw around these terms what is balanced and what is not its all subjective, and based on your perception not reality. We should be focusing on making the real unbalanced game mechanics balanced like reducing randomness and luck in Reach gameplay.

And this is the part where I claim Irony has just occurred. To catch you up on terminologies;

Now

> Unbalanced is like if someone is spammed down by a DMR user with poor aim while the other player aims perfectly with good cadence and loses that battle. That is a unbalanced game mechanic because that is not supposed to happen.

No, that is how the DMR works. Being the better shot should count for something but being the better tactician should trump the better shot. Part of being skilled is not just being able to shoot, it’s being able to read your opponent’s actions and counter them before they even happen. I would suspect a skilled player to be in positions where it is very rare to be spammed by a lesser skilled player to be killed. I would also expect anyone to be able to outplay another player, not simply out-shoot them in a balanced game.

A balanced game is one that offers viable options with the in-game options given. It is also a game with either no tiers or at least doesn’t contain the upper and lower ends of the videogame-tier system tiers.

Reach is not imbalanced because the DMR shoots randomly when shot too quickly. Reach is balanced because both the DMR and NR shoot randomly as their shot speed is increased. And not just that, but the AR does too. But beyond that, the AR shoots very accurately now. Before even bursting it was relatively inaccurate at mid-range. With fullauto spray, the bullets would actual shoot outside the reticle and cause you to miss at even close range. Now the AR shoots very accurately in bursts and stays inside the reticle when in fullauto-mode. AND the AR kills quicker than DMR or NR with bodyshots. YET the DMR or NR kill quicker than the AR if it’s a headshot on the following shot that drops the shields. Meaning if the AR can reduce distance, it can gain an advantage. If the NR or DMR can keep distance, they gain an advantage.

Now I can go further but my point isn’t to describe the entire system (at least not yet), my point is more about what balance is in videogames. Pinpoint accurate weapons aren’t competitive by default. Balanced systems are competitive. And the only intended pinpoint accurate weapon in Reach is the Sniper Rifle. The 2 non-powerweapon ranged weapons are the NR and DMR (ok 3, the Pistol too, maybe more on it later). They both become inaccurate as they are fired without pace and both show you where the boundaries are for their inaccuracy. And as I have said before, the NR is the player vs player weapon for mid-range and less where the DMR is a utility weapon (the mario) which means it can be used in all situations (infantry and vehicles) but really isn’t that great in all situations.

DMR vs DMR battles are said to be random. Either learn to play to limit the randomness or use the NR instead. That’s not imbalanced or non-competitive. That IS balance and competitive ready.

As far as competitive Reach not being as competitive as the previous Halos, that’s up to the community not the game. See, I understand the competitive community says they love how the older games played (yet resisted each title’s changes). But I also know how Bungie stated Reach wouldn’t play like previous Halos though they wanted to catch the feel of CE most. That the c.community may not want to learn new tricks doesn’t mean the game is broken, imbalanced or the new additions are gimmicky. To me it means the c.community wants something different than what Reach offers.

I find it unfortunate that most of the complaints and rants rarely have any truth to them. Being told every step of the way, being given a Beta and still being told afterward what isn’t changing IS NOT a slap in the face. Acting as such is a slap in Bungie’s face IMO.

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@Reaper

If the DMR worked like the NR’s bloom your example would work, however spamming is the most effective method at close-mid range and this makes for luck-based gameplay with the DMR. People will always adapt to the most effective way of killing people and spamming is more effective and kills faster. Its not balanced that the other guy got luckier with his bloom while spamming , and I die because of it. You cant master random elements, therefore it is horrible for competitve gameplay. Even the MLG community is asking for NR starts with 110 percent damage now because the DMR is a horrible luck-based weapon when spammed. Yes, it keeps people from spamming at long range and adds to the skill-cap there but thats the only place where the better cadence and aim will win every time.

Luck-based gameplay and random elements in games are horrible for balance and thus competitve gameplay and Reach has tons of those elements now thanks to AA’s and bloom on precision weapons. I cant think of any luck-based or random elements in Halo CE+Halo 2 that hurt competitve gameplay. While with H3+Reach there are tons.

As for people not accepting new changes or wanting to adapt that is BS. I have adapted to every Halo game and learned new ways to be a good player and I have done the same in Reach. The difference is Reach(and to a much lesser degree Halo 3) has random and gimmicky gameplay mechanics that make the game a worse competitve game overall and reduce the fun factor for me. I cant master random gameplay elements, and gimmicky AA’s give players spammable power-ups off spawn to get them out of trouble or help them get easier kills whereas in previous Halo games you started out on a even playing field and having camo or an overshield gave you a temporary advantage and helped you get kills easier. Everyone now has a spammable power-up to get them out of trouble/help them get easy kills. It pains to me explain this over and over again Reach is actually a worse competitve game than previous games, and it is a whole lot easier to get kills/escape death you have a spammable power-up LOL.

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The NR ISN’T suppose to work like the DMR’s bloom. They’re 2 different weapons. 1 is a projectile, the other hitscan. The former meant for mid-ranged combat, the later for long-distance combat. Both can be used at closer ranges. Where they differ is how the bullets exit their weapon. The DMR leaves via hitscan within the reticle, in a straight line. The NR fires from the centre outward within the reticle, in an angled line. The DMR can outshoot an NR at medium-long range if it crouches. But the NR can maintain its mobility while the crouched DMR looses its. The NR damages 1 bar of health per 2 its, explodes on 3rd. The DMR takes 4 bars of health per hit, 3 to kill. The NR ricochets off of hard surfaces/vehicles, the DMR damages vehicles (except tanks)… they both kill infantry in the same time but one does it in 7 shots, the other 5 shots. It’s all part of the balance with depth that IS there now.

And if you’re basing your fights on luck because you aren’t taking into account bloom, other than “it spams, so I will,” it’s not the game’s fault encounters are so random.

And even if i concede that the DMR is a completely luck-based weapon (it isn’t you can see how much spread you have), as I have said since the Beta, use the Needle-Rifle instead because it is more reliable at mid-range and closer. It fires like a CE Pistol but functions like the Halo3 BR in projectile use.

As far as AAs, the c.community can elect to remove them can they not? As I have said, I’d personally have NR + Pistol starts, 1 frag and Evade. Nothing else for spawning :slight_smile: To me, that makes the most sense for the types of maps used by the c.community. Of course if they want a choice and slightly asymmetrical starts, it’s always up to popular vote.

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I didn’t want people to be focusing on the “Halo CE & 2” topic. Please focus on the other aspects of the OP and not just one part.

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> Fake Balance is what happens when a game or an aspect of a game seems balanced on paper, but actual playing reveals major problems that were not anticipated by the designers. This is a reason why a game can have Character Tiers despite being balanced in theory. For clarification, Fake Balance is caused when the game designer intends to balance the game, but fails to do so. Intentionally putting in Game Breaker or joke characters does not count, since the designer has no intention of balancing the game anyway.
>
> Luck-based balance: Luck-based gameplay easily falls into Fake Balance because of issues with the Random Number God, such that a match between two skilled players is decided by luck, rather than skill, so an unskilled player can beat a skilled one.

this is exactly what the DMR is in halo reach. luck-based ‘fake balance’.

> No, that is how the DMR works. Being the better shot should count for something but being the better tactician should trump the better shot.

well, being a better shot in halo reach counts for very little a LOT of the time. every single DMR-only battle when someone is spamming (even at the optimal 4 spammed hits at close-medium range) effectively makes the game into a coin flip where shooting skill is thrown out the window in favor of a random luck factor in its place.

sure, being a better tactician should count for something, but in halo reach a brilliant tactician will immediately see that shooting skill was kicked to the curb in shooting DMR vs DMR. a brilliant tactician in halo reach will tell you that engaging in 1v1 DMR-only battles (the primary weapon spawn so this happens frequently) is foolish because you cannot control their outcome by shooting better. all of a sudden we have a halo game, for the first time in the games long history, where you cant engage in straight forward, intuitive shooting combat with your primary weapon, so you have to work around this terrible aspect of the game.

i mean, sure, you can often times put yourself in positions where spamming doesnt matter. you cant expect to always be able to control this, however, and when you are forced to 1v1 DMR-only battle someone, the game just looks like a joke if 1 person is spamming.

> I would also expect anyone to be able to outplay another player, not simply out-shoot them in a balanced game.

except, a lot of halo has always been to be able to out play them with your primary weapon vs theirs. this was thrown out the window in halo reach.

> A balanced game is one that offers viable options with the in-game options given.

in-game options given like shooting your primary weapon spawn against their primary weapon spawn and expecting the person who shoots better to come out alive? LMAO!

> weapons vs other weapons

the people complaining could really care less what weapons beat other weapons so long as 2 things are constant.
1.) off the spawn you can reasonably defend yourself (especially in long and close ranges)
and
2.) if you shoot better than someone with your primary weapon spawn vs their primary weapon spawn, you will win the encounter.

in halo reach only the first is true. if the AR did more damage than the DMR or the NR most players wouldnt mind i dont think, at least i wouldnt. i’d like to see halo where you can have an advantage with the AR / SMG / what have you, at close range over the primary weapon spawn (maybe even use it as a secondary :P).

> Pinpoint accurate weapons aren’t competitive by default. Balanced systems are competitive. And the only intended pinpoint accurate weapon in Reach is the Sniper Rifle.

where are you getting that statement from? also, the DMR, needle rifle, pistol, and focus rifle are all pinpoint weapons when used correctly.

> DMR vs DMR battles are said to be random. Either learn to play to limit the randomness or use the NR instead.

a few things here.
1.) they arent ‘said’ to be random. they ARE random if someone is spamming. spamming is actually OPTIMAL when your reticule covers half of your target, effectively making all battles at this range, where both players know how to use their weapon, a coin flip; instead of them just being the person who shoots better wins.
2.) why is it better to have this inherent random factor in the first place? thats LITERALLY the ENTIRE POINT people are trying to make when they talk about the DMR being BAD. the added random factor isnt better at all, and it doesnt help anyone either!

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> [Halo is changing]

thats good and fine, but not a single person could have possibly foreseen the changes that bungie was being made ending up being so atrocious when compared to the other halo games. all of a sudden halo goes from

shoot better -> win 1v1 primary weapon spawn-only encounter

we have a game thats

shoot better -> win 1v1 primary weapon spawn-only encounter, unless someone is spamming, then god knows who will win. also, at close-mid range spamming is actually optimal, so throw shooting skill out the window in all of these situations and give the winner of the luck battle a cookie.

then we go from grenades being a TOOL to AID in players getting kills, into grenades literally being the best non-power weapon in the game.

we also go from retaining the more skillful person in the encounter involving 1 melee winning the battle into skill doesnt matter in melee combat, and shootings viability is actually thrown out the window some of the time too.

and to top it all of, we get a bunch of frustrating armor abilities across the board that arent even REMOTELY balanced.

-armor lock is blatantly overpowered, not close. incredibly frustrating / rage inducing for most players.
-evade is the god of the armor abilities when used by a skilled player, not close.
-hologram is useless when you could pick anything else, not close.
-invis is obvious. you might as well paint yourself LIME GREEN when you activate it because it tells even mildly good halo players EXACTLY where you are.
-bubble is INCREDIBLE in objective games, and frustrating in every game because it takes about a billion and a half bullets, or a full inventory of grenades to pop.
-sprint lets people who get outplayed simply run away. good players know not to chase, so this adds yet another frustration factor.
-jet pack COMPLETELY removes the concept of map control from the game.

dont get me wrong, armor abilities COULD add to halo, but as they are they add more frustration than anything else, for mildly competitive players.

> I find it unfortunate that most of the complaints and rants rarely have any truth to them.

like the DMR is random, no-bleed factually removes the viability of shooting from some close combat battles, and armor lock is blatantly overpowered? all of these are impossible to argue against.

> Being told every step of the way, being given a Beta and still being told afterward what isn’t changing IS NOT a slap in the face. Acting as such is a slap in Bungie’s face IMO.

honestly, if bungie would have told halo players how halo reach would be different in every way, not many people would have bought the game.

Bungie says “for our newest halo game we have removed the viability of shooting SOME of the time in close combat situations! REALLY NEAT! we’ve also added a random luck factor to a lot of the battles / encounters with primary weapon spawns! SUPER COOL! along side these awesome changes we have MINI NUKE GRENADES! OOHHHH AHHHH! then to put a cherry on top of ‘awesome pie’ we have a bunch of frustration packed armor abilities to troll your opponents with! HUZZAH BEST HALO GAME EVERZ!”

bungie didnt let me know the next halo game was going to be terrible. if they did i wouldnt have bought it. change is fine, steps backwards in every single core game mechanic + a new core game mechanic (AA’s) that are all terribly balanced is NOT change for the better.

> And even if i concede that the DMR is a completely luck-based weapon (it isn’t you can see how much spread you have)

LMAO! you forgot to add ‘except for DMR vs DMR battles when someone is spamming, those are completely random’.

> As far as AAs, the c.community can elect to remove them can they not?

community has very little sway in what actually happens with bungie in charge. people have complained since week ONE that armor lock is nothing short of LAUGHABLE because it is so BLATANTLY OVERPOWERED. they have also complained since week one that the DMR’s bloom algorithm is just flat out terrible too. anything done about it? nope. how about the people complaining that jet pack COMPLETELY removes map control from halo? do we still see jet pack in mildly competitive gametypes / playlists? YEP. bungie could care less about what the community says, thats very evident.

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Oh I see what you did there. You didn’t count Arena or MLG as competitive yet grouped all of Halo as competitive. Even Action Sack… I agree. It’s always a competition to see who wins. I dislike loosing but I hate ties :smiley:

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> Oh I see what you did there. You didn’t count Arena or MLG as competitive yet grouped all of Halo as competitive. Even Action Sack… I agree. It’s always a competition to see who wins. I dislike loosing but I hate ties :smiley:

by competitive i mean above average levels of play where everyone knows basically 100% of the time whats going on with the mechanics, and how they work, and everyone is trying their hardest to win. most of the people in action sack would not fall into that category i’d say lol.

anyone can play any playlist competitively, or non competitively (by my definition), dont get me wrong, just not many people in action sack really care.

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> anyone can play any playlist competitively, or non competitively (by my definition), dont get me wrong, just not many people in action sack really care.

That is true to an extent. Grifball is taken seriously. But does the community reflect that? No. Bungie disguised the “Social” community by putting social gametypes under “Competitive”. Honestly people who actually play in the Competitive category are just playing for fun and not really playing to compete.

If you look at the definition of competitive, you can see that people want to challenge other gamers which is the hardcore or Ranked from H2 and H3. Bungie destroyed the symbol of hardcore or competitive halo gamers literally, morally, and gameplay-wise.