BTB needs a BR start

Games Halo Infinite
61

I wouldn’t expect to change anyone’s mind who position is based on incredible exaggerations if not outright fabrications about what goes in a precision weapon start environment and a complete failure to understand how Halo actually works.

But I guess for some reason we need to “test” whether Precision starts are popular in BTB despite being consistently one of the most played playlists in the series with precision starts for over a decade. If 343 actually believed that AR/Sidekick is what players needed to succeed BR starts wouldn’t even be a thing in competitive.

The fact that you don’t understand why other players don’t care as much about the AR is pretty emblematic of this entire “debate.” I understand that strong bullet hoses can be fun to use, but at the end of the day that’s all it is. A fight between two AR users just doesn’t has the same depth as a fight between two precision be it a BR, CE Pistol, or any of the numerous versatile precision weapons we have had throughout Halo’s history.

There is only so much room for improvement with a bullet hose like the AR there is only so much room to grow as a player and only so many ways to approach an encounter. As a weapon within the greater Halo sandbox that’s fine, not every weapon needs a huge amount of depth, but that doesn’t make it suitable as the (effectively) sole starting weapon.

As much as some people would like to pretend otherwise, I want to see people use all kinds ot weapons and see them interact to create new experiences, but it has to be the result of each individual weapons own merits, not because your starting weapon is insufficient. Spawning with a versatile weapon does not slow down map movement or limit variety, its bad map and individual weapon design that does that, regardless of the weapon you start with.

4 Likes
62

I’m convinced most people who think spawning with 2 short range weapons on these huge maps say this because they want to feel powerful picking up a rifle against helpless players since they can’t kill people on even ground. The weapons in this game all have their uses so thinking no one will pick up anything because they have a BR are wrong.

11 Likes
63

Why are you pretending the TU DMR in Reach and the Halo Infinite BR are the same thing?

64

Look the argument that your spawning weapon has to be insufficient is not what AR starts are. Clearly BR start Halo players don’t understand what an Arena Shooter is. In Arena Shooters, Halo being one of those, your starting weapon is usable but not in ALL situations. There are very few situations where the BR is not a great choice to use against any other weapon baring explosion weapons in close range (guns like the ravager and cindershot are easy to dodge/avoid outside of close range), a shotgun/sword/hammer at very close range in a room where you can’t just back peddle, or a sniper (although one can argue you aren’t really at that big of a disadvantage against a sniper because you can descope them very easily) at very long ranges. The “recoil” on the BR in infinite is minimal, it has Hitscan and no bloom so it can and does easily outclass the commando at range unless someone is very skilled at controlling the recoil and even then you with a BR will probably win.

The problem is the BR is just too useful. Again unless you drastically reduced the sandbox and redesign some existing weapons it will kill lots of others. Why would I ever pick up a mangler, pulse carbine, AR, shock rifle, shock pistol, sentinel beam, or even switch to my sidekick?

Everyone has played Halos with precision weapon spawns. That’s all people use, go look at the pro gameplay from Infinite they released to show comp off. In it 99.9% of the time the only reason someone even swapped weapons was because they had to reload the BR and didn’t have time to do so. Pretending like the BR isn’t as good as it is doesn’t help anyone. Acknowledge you want to change how maps are designed (can’t leave open sight lines or else you will get mapped constantl), want a smaller more niche sandbox, and want to be able to ignore map weapons because you don’t like the Arena Shooter genre and would like to ignore core concepts without being punished for it.

In 2 the BR was the meta, in 3 the BR was the meta, in Reach its the DMR, 4 the BR was the meta, in 5 it was the BR and pistol but only because the pistol was a DMR so please tell us again to ignore our lying eyes and say that either this time it will be different or that’s how it should be. BR start people don’t like Arena shooters period. They don’t want to have to try to control map weapons that aren’t the rocket or the occasional sniper because why would you went the BR is as good as or better than anything you can pick up outside of very niche circumstances?

The only argument you have given is “I want something useful all the time because I don’t want to be at a disadvantage for not playing/losing the fight for map weapons,” and “I hate not being able to map people from spawn” and “don’t believe all 20 years of Halo history because this time it will be different” and those just aren’t going to cut it. And yes a power weapon should be way stronger than the starting weapon, why else would I go into the open to grab a weapon and risk dying if it is only marginally better than what I spawn with. Destiny has a similar concept with its heavy weapons and how the ammo spawns in the middle of the map and both teams fight for it. Whoever wins that fight gets an advantage since they now have heavy ammo and just killed the players going for it.

Again you are free to argue you like how it plays but trying to say that it doesn’t drastically change how the game plays is just a lie.

2 Likes
65

Uhh no… then nobody would even have to leave their base… just kill anyone who decides to leave theirs.

66

Y’all are forgetting these maps are designed around AR starts. All three maps have lots of close quarters and short sightline areas for you to duck into if you don’t pick up a long range weapon off of the racks in your base.
There’s enough weapon racks that you can basically choose between close range, long range, and vehicle options most of the time.
If you have an AR and you’re getting cross mapped by someone with a BR your positioning is off, simple as. This ain’t Blood Gulch.

1 Like
67

Try using a BR across one of the BTB maps. and see how well that actually works.

68

If they did make BR starts they would have to lower the red reticule range I think.

I wanted BR starts too but I think with this BR it would be a disaster you can EASILY cross map with it.

2 Likes
69

I agree that the game needs a BR start, just not in BTB. There wouldn’t be any incentive to use any other weapon given how insanely accurate it is and if you use any vehicle other than a tank, you’re going to get peppered.

70

They serve the same purpose a gun that is useful in all situations thus subtracting from the point of arena shooters. Giving a gun straight off the rip that is good in every situation compared to spawning with a gun that is good in more than half situations is against the core of arena shooters. Arena shooters are about weapon control and map control. Spawning with The DMR or BR etc. subtract from the arena shooter experience.

71

Seriously, BR starts is such a meme at this point. You only want BR starts so you don’t have to hunt for it and actually explore and play the sandbox. BR starts result in boring BR kills only and BR vs BR matches.

1 Like
72

At this point we should just advocate for Bulldog starts in BTB since the AR is so strong it may as well be a power weapon. Also the Bulldog is so weak compared to the AR that it barely gets used and it should have a chance to shine so why not make it a spawn weapon? Sure anyone who picks up an AR (or virtually any other weapon in the sandbox) will completely dominate freshly spawned players at range but who cares? Halo is about earning the power weapons and then snowballing the competition, right? True balance!

This is of course sarcasm but the same logic that is lacking in this argument is also lacking in those defending AR starts in BTB/arguing against BR starts. We can keep AR starts in 4v4 social, but BTB’s larger maps requires a weapon with more range, and no matter how much you buff the AR it’s just never going to cut it.

2 Likes
73

You are missing the point. In short the BR has too much range and accuracy which allows for a toxic meta that nullifies a lot of guns (this point can not be argued as since its inception the BR, and DMR, have absolutely dominated the meta and just saying that it hasn’t or won’t this time is willfully ignoring history). The AR has less range but decent enough to use and now that in Infinite the AR isn’t trash like it has historically been that makes the AR a great weapon to start with while allowing the diversity and importance of map weapons to thrive.

Again you can argue you like not having to worry about map weapons as much, you don’t feel like having to go to pick it up to use it, you like that you can sit back and map people, or you just love the BR so much that every moment it’s not gracing your hands is just pure agony but to tell people to ignore truths about BR spawns isn’t going to help your cause.

1 Like
74

Most of the weapons are weaker and less versatile than the AR. There’s little point in picking up other weapons as is. I don’t think BR starts would change anything negatively in that regard.

2 Likes
75

Literally nothing wrong with BR starts and people who think no one is gonna pick up a secondary are idiots. I feel like half of these people saying no BR starts have not played BTB and if they did they were hot dog water rofl.

76

This is again “ignore your lying eyes” go watch any gameplay with BR spawns. People rarely use other weapons outside of a rocket/sniper or sword/hammer/shotgun outside of really close range in a room. And if they do use a secondary or map pickup it’s usually only because they need to reload the BR and don’t have time to before they die. If you want to be ignorant to the fact that spawning with a BR makes certain weapons worth less then be my guest but don’t try to make the rest or us believe the contradiction you keep spouting which is:

“The BR isn’t as oppressive as people say it is and would barely change the gameplay yet we NEED to spawn with it because without it we can’t ignore/compete and beat many map weapons”

Argue for a new playlist but not to replace the AR starts we already have. I am all for people being able to play how they want so I will fully support another playlist.

3 Likes
77

Nah it really doesn’t, there are so many weapon racks you don’t need a BR start at all (I’m running around with a BR or Commando in a matter of seconds 90% of the time no matter where I spawn). The AR/Pistol combo is strong enough to keep you viable when you don’t have time to pick stuff up.

It’s fine the way it is.

3 Likes
78

Precision start players know what Halo is, they’ve known since people noticed that default Plasma Pistol starts suck in CE and AR/Pistol were far better. Halo is part of the arena shooter sub genre, but it is not an traditional Arena shooter where you start with worthless/limited weapons and move your way up from there.

Between the console friendly aim assist, the relatively slower movement speed(compared to something like Quake), the two weapon limit, and the emphasis on Teamplay(as compared to 1v1s or FFAs that dominate more traditional Arena shooters). A fresh spawn quite simply does not have the same capability to strafe their way out of bad situations.

Versatility off spawn is a necessity to keep games from devolving into one sided snowballs, because even in a best case scenario it is ludicrously easy to exploit a player who only has access to a close range weapon off spawn.

This has been demonstrated time and again for over a decade everytime auto starts have been tried and precision starts have always come back, because its a necesity when any of the players involved know what they are doing.

The “precision meta” or whatever you want to call it doesn’t vanish when you put a them on the map as opposed to spawning with them. Anyone who knows what they are doing will head straight for a ranged weapon when they know a fresh spawn can’t do anything about it. This isn’t an interesting decision, its just the obvious choice for anyone who has the most basic understanding of how Halo works…

Halo revolves around utility weapons, those weapons get used a lot. This is Halo working as it should, the only problem has been a minority of weapons across Halo history that are either bad at their jobs(like most dualies from Halo 2 and 3) and/or are shallow redundant reskin weapons like the Carbine or any number of various precision weapons and auto weapons that are just X faction version of Y weapon.

The difference between you and me is that I actually want a good a varied sandbox that promotes using a variety of weapon based on their own merits. You’d rather leave the sandbox in a pitiful state and try and hide away the few weapons that are decent rather than fixing what’s broken.

The fact that some weapons may not be pulling their own weight is not a justification for removing precision starts…

The Mangler and AR have objectively better close range TTK’s than the BR(so does the Sentinel Beam if I remember correctly), the Shock Rifle is a OHK headshot that can EMP vehicles.

I can’t justify using the Pulse Carbine, Disruptor or Sidekick. Why? Because they are unbalanced badly designed weapons that are bad regardless of starting weapon. You stick your head in the sand and ignore the weapons that do have a use(IE the majority of the Halo sandbox across Halo history) because they simply are not used as often as the main utility weapon or otherwise handwave them away as “power weapons”.

Meanwhile your upset that people won’t switch to a handful of poorly balanced and designed weapons. It is not the resident precision weapon’s problem that other weapons don’t pull their weight.

I actually have historical context to back up why I support BR starts in large part due to snowballing but you clearly have no interest in actually engaging with that notion as you can’t stop lying about my position.

Having the capability to ward off at mid to longer range(a whopping 60 meters) is not “I hate not being able to cross map off spawn.” Spawning with a precision weapons does not negate the downsides of losing power weapons and map positioning that come with any death.

Power weapons do not have to be “I win” buttons to be worth fighting over. A power weapon gets you moving across the map, but they shouldn’t be infallible against a players starting weapon, because its shallow boring gameplay. Its the potential for upsets that make the game interesting, otherwise you might as well just wait around until they run out of ammo. Destiny is not a model of balanced competitive(IE fair) gameplay and is totally irrelevant to a conversation about Halo.

BR starts don’t change how the game is played it just improves the quality of the matches and doesn’t try and sweep badly balanced and designed weapons under the rug.

Your whole position relies on the notion that “no one uses other weapons with BR spawns” which is false for one, but more importantly it ignores any possibility that there might be a good reason people avoid a minority of weapons that doesn’t rely on the BR being especially powerful.

Having more pretty lights and weapon models do not actually make for better gameplay, there has to actually be some substance.

9 Likes
79

Nah, the more I’ve played the more I think AR is perfect starts for it. BR shreds vehicles and vehicles are already pretty weak this game.

80

I’ve been playing Halo for 20 years now and I have never had so many close games as I am having now with AR starts in Infinite. Spawning with a BR negates guns that aren’t necessarily bad either. They just aren’t way better so it’s not really worth picking it up like the stalker rifle or commando. Why would I take the time to go pick up a gun that performs similarly when I could spend that time getting back to the area I want or killing people who are going for those guns?

In your last argument you admit to what I said BR people always say: “well I’d pick up other guns if they were better” and this is the biggest problem. The BR is just too good at too many things. This only leaves the small niches for other guns to survive so unlessbthey drastically cut down on the sandbox and redesign the rest of the guns to cater to the BR then the BR meta will always be stale. This is the problem, it’s just hard to make other guns viable when the BR has great range, relatively low recoil, perfect accuracy and no bloom.

This is where the AR shines, its good at close to mid range, but it has to share that range with the needler, shotgun, melee weapons, the sidekick, sentinel beam etc. The BR can out range all of these and even if it has competitors it’s better than them for the reasons I listed above. But as a map weapon the BR can show off as when you get killed by it you know they have limited ammo and can’t just get more off of every single person they kill. It also means you can have more mid range precision weapons on the map to vary the mid range combat since if you need a mid range precision weapon you will grab the closest one instead of say “no I already have one of those”.

3 Likes