BTB Magnum/Ar Starts

Games Halo 5: Guardians
81

> 2533274797303698;5:
> While I cant speak for every Forger, I can certainly speak for Dispelled. I had made the map for the BTB Meet Your Maker contest and the requirement was to design a BTB map with AR/MAG starts. And so I did, making sightlines a big longer to give a more “open concept” design. I have always played and tested the map with AR/MAG and matchmaking was the first time ever I played it with BR starts. Luckily it doesn’t completely ruin the gameplay on my map, some aren’t so lucky. It definitely plays better with MAGs rather then BRs as it encourages more vehicle play, but unfortunately that is not my call to make.

You made Dispelled? That map is amazing. It’s definitely one of my favorite BTB maps in the game.

82

Honestly, I really like how BTB plays, probably my favourite game mode on Halo 5.

83

> 2533274834607247;76:
> > 2535445608274502;75:
> > > 2533274834607247;71:
> > > Also, anyone who is at least willing to give Magnum starts a chance, please vote on THIS poll from Halo Customs. We need to rally as many followers as possible to show 343 that the community is serious about this topic.
> >
> >
> > Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!
>
>
> Did you even bother to read my previous posts?

Yes I did, that’s what sparked my interest to comment lol.
If you implement a Magnum on a BTB map goodluck finding BTB games! You may as well make vehicles indestructible. Nobody is going to go hey you know what I feel like getting my prostate prolapsed by every single vehicle on the map lets play BTB! What they will say is, hmmm I don’t really want to spend half the game running around the map trying to find someone or run closer to someone so I can shoot them while watching out for over powered un beatable vehicles. To put it simply with Magnums you will be running around the map then when you find someone you’ll be spending the next half reloading!

84

I agree 100%. As much as I hate to say it, the BR is too powerful to be a starting weapon in this game. It has too much bullet magnetism, and not enough burst spread. Pistol starts would suit the playlist a lot more, and allow maps to flow a little bit more.

That being said, this new batch of BTB maps are by far the most balanced so far, and all of the refreshes make moves in the right direction. As someone who didn’t like BTB that much before, this refresh makes the playlist really enjoyable.

85

> 2535445608274502;73:
> > 2535458232742189;1:
> > How many of you want it. Let’s get this to the front page. I encourage forgers and BTB map creators to comment and create topics about this.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274923562209;2:
> > Magnum starts would be the logical thing to do, especially when these maps were tested and designed for magnum starts. Hint hint 343?
> >
> > to go into detail on my issues with BR starts and why the magnum would suit it better as the starting weapon: the BR is to easy to use, it has to much magnetism to it and at long sight lines and so much open space it makes it to easy to lock down parts of a map or make an unnecessary dead zone. The magnum doesn’t have as much magnetism to it and is also limited in range, make it more challenging to create these dead zones. Having the BR as a pickup is fine as its much more limited in how often it’s used and is in a sense, a mini power weapon but one that can be countered much easier than a team of 8 all using it. Had the BR been designed like previous halo games or h5s magnum, I’d have no issue, but it just doesn’t fit well in this game as a good starting weapon.
> >
> > A good example I have is guile time? The map that’s all grass and has satellites. Both teams are pretty much restricted to their side of the map due to the BR being able to hit consistently across the map where as a magnum start makes pushes happen more often and requires you to move up on the pushes to stop them, rather than sitting at the back of the map with the BR.
> >
> > Solutions: go to magnum starts, or fix the sight lines big time to make the BR fit better, or make the BR harder to use at longer range (I.E. Reduce range and magnetism).
>
>
> I am going to reply to both of your comments, one because you’re the OP of this topic and two because you took time to think and write out your answer. I do agree with you in the sense that areas of maps can be locked down tighter than a tics -Yoink-, but that’s solely due to the your team allowing that to happen. It isn’t a re-occurring situation, therefor it isn’t a problem. There will always be games where the enemy team is just very well coordinated and gains a leg up on you. It happens to the best of us! However, if you remove the starting weapon BR and replace it with a Magnum, then no worries, enjoy being spawn raped by every single vehicle on the map. The argument I bring to you with this is, yes you might be a little angry about the start off weapons now but that’s because you haven’t taken into consideration the mass power weapons available, the arsenal of readily available long distance vehicles on the map. The BR really closes the gap for vehicles and to suggest removing the only counter is silly (in my opinion). Take into consideration EVERY VARIABLE! Because you certainly aren’t taking down that Banshee with a Magnum, and you definitely aren’t killing any Spartans on ground vehicles when they are distance shooting you. On top of that as well, the ammo count for a magnum is significantly less than a BR. It’s called BTB for a reason. If everyone is using a Magnum then everyone is going to spend half the game reloading and that’s not fun. For example 2v1 scenarios pop up all the time, would you rather kill one and lose to the other or, outmaneuver your enemy and get that sweet double! Or possibly even triple! This is my view on it.
>
> PLEASE RESPOND!

•it most definately is a re-occurring issue or others and myself wouldn’t have an issue. It’s not hard to lockdown a map with BRs lol,especially team side. At best you get a good push once you kill enough to make a push, but other than that you’re both restricted to your side of the map trading bodies.
•tell me how the magnum is different than any other weapon when it comes to spawn trapping? Are you going to use a BR vs a tank or banshee or are you going to try for a plasma pistol or actual anti-vehicle weapons? Same applies to the magnum, no idea where you’re going with this one.
•BRs aren’t a counter to vehicles and even if they were, they’re not the only counter to vehicles like you think, again, there are anti-vehicle weapons on the map.
•funny you mention vehicles as well. H5s biggest issue with btb is probably the lack of vehicle play. Something the BR actually ruins due to its huge magnetism on warthog gunners and ghosts, the vehicles that leave you exposed where as the tanks or banshees don’t have that issue. A magnum wouldn’t cause that issue because it’d be much harder to hit those targets, not cuz if range, but because it doesn’t aim for you like the BR does
•what does ammo have to do with anything? You have an unending supply from dead Spartans and never once have I even ran out of magnum ammo in arena which would drop even less due to less players.
•as for the 2v1 scenario: I’d take the magnum over the BR cuz the magnum actually takes skill and doesn’t aim for you lol. There’s previous posts already going over the difference between BR and magnum fights.

i get the impression you think people need to “git gud!”. Tell me why champs and onyx level players want this change as well? Getting outplayed has nothing to do with this at all, and if that’s what you’re going off if then we’re done here. You’re ignoring that the h5 BR doesn’t function correctly as a utility weapon in h5. It’s not the same has h2, h3, or h4s versions that did function correctly. Because the magnum does however, you see people asking for the change. There’s also the fact that h5 as a whole and these btb maps admitted by the creators are designed with the magnum in mind, and so far I have not seen a single person counter that point let alone even acknowledge it.

86

> 2533274816788253;22:
> I still say with all the complaints of no BR starts in H5 to take them away in BTB probably wouldn’t be good. A good compromise is to bring back the slayer and slayer “pro” game types and have both. But as of now I still rather have the AR/BR starts for BTB.

As much as I don’t like having multiple gametype settings in a single playlist, I think this might be a decent idea for the short term. Maybe do a 2 week trial period where you have both, and then somehow determine what one worked better by analyzing the data they get comparing the two. If they strait up replace BR with Pistol i think it might scare people away before they play it. A lot of people seem to be stuck on the idea of BR starts even though they drastically changed the BR in this game to make it too powerful as a starting weapon IMO. The best way to prove to them that AR/Pistol starts is the best way is to have both and then let them decide themselves.

87

> 2533274834607247;70:
> I’m seeing a lot of people talk about Magnum starts being a bad thing because it will cause an imbalance when some players have BRs while other don’t. To that I have to ask: Isn’t that the point of a pickup? Different weapons exist to create imbalances. Imbalances cause conflict and keep things interesting. This is why things like power weapons and power positions exist. It’s the struggle to obtain these advantages that makes the whole game function the way it does. So why is it that everyone is suddenly scared of imbalances when it’s about the BR? Creating opportunities for players to gain an advantage, and allowing the better players to come out on top, is the whole point of designing a player versus player experience. If everything were perfectly balanced, there would be no need to change weapons or positions, and the game would stagnate. As it stands now, things are TOO balanced. Nobody feels the need to trade out the BR for any other weapon. With Magnum starts, players would need to move around the map to acquire better weapons to give themselves an advantage, AKA an “imbalance”. Again, this is the point of PvP design.
>
> There also seems to be some worst case scenario assumptions being made. There is a fear of an enemy team having BRs while yours does not. This is never the case on properly designed maps. Both teams have access to BRs in every map, even asymmetrical ones. In addition, the standard timers for tier one weapons allow for multiple copies of that weapon to be held at any given time, so anyone can acquire one if they need to. This will never change in a matchmaking environment, as there are certain criteria that need to be met before implementation. To top it all off, it is very unlikely that EVERY player of an enemy team will have a BR in a powerful position while your team will not have any. An enemy team having more BRs than you has never been an issue in 4V4, so why would it be a problem in BTB? Here, there are even more people to shoot at a single BR wielder to take them down, more routes to take to approach BR wielders, and more options available to give yourself a different kind of advantage like vehicles or power weapons.
>
> Now with that all out of the way, here are some other reasons pertaining to PvP design as to why the Magnum is preferable to the BR as a starting weapon:
>
> - The Magnum empowers the individual.
> Two BR wielders only have to shoot a player twice for a perfect kill, while two Magnum wielders have to fire three times in order to account for the fifth shot in a perfect kill. This means there is more room for error, as well as a larger window for the one player to fight back.
>
> - Magnums are less effective against vehicles.
> Vehicles are the defining factor of BTB when compared to 4V4s. Magnums have a harder time shooting drivers and gunners, and would allow vehicles to be at play longer and more often, returning to the classic BTB experience so many people have asked for.
>
> - Magnums have a shorter effective range.
> Halo 5s Magnum has an effective range comparable to that of the H2/H3 BRs. With Magnum starts, players would have to move more to effectively engage enemy players, which would lead to less stagnation and more areas of the map being used. More of the map being used means positions are being used to gain advantages, which goes back to the point of PvP design.
>
> - Magnums allow segmentation by distance.
> Because of the shorter range of the Magnum, long distance sightlines become safer for players to move through. In addition to removing stagnation, this allows designers to be more creative in the way they design their maps. Large open areas can be used as isolated battlegrounds and allow vehicles to be more effective in them. This would again lead to a return to more classic feeling BTB experience.
>
> Magnum starts would allow a return to a more classic style of BTB that many people have been craving. Vehicles would become more effective and be used more frequently. Large open maps would become viable design choices. Stagnation would be significantly reduced and players would be safer when traversing maps in an attempt to gain better weapons or positions, which is the heart and soul of PvP design. Most importantly, Magnums would empower individuals and allow them to more effectively contribute to their team while increasing the skill gap and allowing the best players to shine.

Now watch as this post is ignored by everyone against BR starts because it isn’t the post you see on the first page. It’s sad because this (and my post quoting a bunch of you guys) would shut people up in seconds but because people just jump into conversations after seeing the first five posts, stuff like this will be ignored. Everything you’ve said is true, is a fact. There’s no way to refute any of it! But all people need is “It takes away my precious BR, therefore you are wrong.” because that’s all they care about.

They don’t give a damn about what BTB is truly about, they don’t want to see the one playlist where you use a BR that isn’t SWAT ‘ruined’ by people who actually care about BTB.

88

> 2533274883849234;87:
> > 2533274834607247;70:
> > I’m seeing a lot of people talk about Magnum starts being a bad thing because it will cause an imbalance when some players have BRs while other don’t. To that I have to ask: Isn’t that the point of a pickup? Different weapons exist to create imbalances. Imbalances cause conflict and keep things interesting. This is why things like power weapons and power positions exist. It’s the struggle to obtain these advantages that makes the whole game function the way it does. So why is it that everyone is suddenly scared of imbalances when it’s about the BR? Creating opportunities for players to gain an advantage, and allowing the better players to come out on top, is the whole point of designing a player versus player experience. If everything were perfectly balanced, there would be no need to change weapons or positions, and the game would stagnate. As it stands now, things are TOO balanced. Nobody feels the need to trade out the BR for any other weapon. With Magnum starts, players would need to move around the map to acquire better weapons to give themselves an advantage, AKA an “imbalance”. Again, this is the point of PvP design.
> >
> > There also seems to be some worst case scenario assumptions being made. There is a fear of an enemy team having BRs while yours does not. This is never the case on properly designed maps. Both teams have access to BRs in every map, even asymmetrical ones. In addition, the standard timers for tier one weapons allow for multiple copies of that weapon to be held at any given time, so anyone can acquire one if they need to. This will never change in a matchmaking environment, as there are certain criteria that need to be met before implementation. To top it all off, it is very unlikely that EVERY player of an enemy team will have a BR in a powerful position while your team will not have any. An enemy team having more BRs than you has never been an issue in 4V4, so why would it be a problem in BTB? Here, there are even more people to shoot at a single BR wielder to take them down, more routes to take to approach BR wielders, and more options available to give yourself a different kind of advantage like vehicles or power weapons.
> >
> > Now with that all out of the way, here are some other reasons pertaining to PvP design as to why the Magnum is preferable to the BR as a starting weapon:
> >
> > - The Magnum empowers the individual.
> > Two BR wielders only have to shoot a player twice for a perfect kill, while two Magnum wielders have to fire three times in order to account for the fifth shot in a perfect kill. This means there is more room for error, as well as a larger window for the one player to fight back.
> >
> > - Magnums are less effective against vehicles.
> > Vehicles are the defining factor of BTB when compared to 4V4s. Magnums have a harder time shooting drivers and gunners, and would allow vehicles to be at play longer and more often, returning to the classic BTB experience so many people have asked for.
> >
> > - Magnums have a shorter effective range.
> > Halo 5s Magnum has an effective range comparable to that of the H2/H3 BRs. With Magnum starts, players would have to move more to effectively engage enemy players, which would lead to less stagnation and more areas of the map being used. More of the map being used means positions are being used to gain advantages, which goes back to the point of PvP design.
> >
> > - Magnums allow segmentation by distance.
> > Because of the shorter range of the Magnum, long distance sightlines become safer for players to move through. In addition to removing stagnation, this allows designers to be more creative in the way they design their maps. Large open areas can be used as isolated battlegrounds and allow vehicles to be more effective in them. This would again lead to a return to more classic feeling BTB experience.
> >
> > Magnum starts would allow a return to a more classic style of BTB that many people have been craving. Vehicles would become more effective and be used more frequently. Large open maps would become viable design choices. Stagnation would be significantly reduced and players would be safer when traversing maps in an attempt to gain better weapons or positions, which is the heart and soul of PvP design. Most importantly, Magnums would empower individuals and allow them to more effectively contribute to their team while increasing the skill gap and allowing the best players to shine.
>
>
> Now watch as this post is ignored by everyone against BR starts because it isn’t the post you see on the first page. It’s sad because this (and my post quoting a bunch of you guys) would shut people up in seconds but because people just jump into conversations after seeing the first five posts, stuff like this will be ignored. Everything you’ve said is true, is a fact. There’s no way to refute any of it! But all people need is “It takes away my precious BR, therefore you are wrong.” because that’s all they care about.
>
> They don’t give a damn about what BTB is truly about, they don’t want to see the one playlist where you use a BR that isn’t SWAT ‘ruined’ by people who actually care about BTB.

Op could quote the post to his OP on first page. I’d do it for mine but I’m not the op and most people would generally read that then just skip past mine and anyone else. My favorite post is “BRs counter vehicles” when weak vehicles is already part of the issue with btb. Warthogs and ghosts are no where near as used because of BR magnetism RRR.

89

Wait, what? Just to check that BTB means the same thing to us: Big Team Battle, right?

HELL NAW, to the no-no-no-no-no. AR/Pistol starts are the reason I have nigh on zero love for arena. I get murdered because my first thought isn’t: go out and play, as I do with an AR/BR start - its: get rid of the pistol, get rid of the pistol, get rid…oh crap!! I’m in a firefight with this terrible weapon. Dead face D:

Big map? Needs long range. The BR allows me to fight it out even if I don’t get a power weapon, pistols, for me at least, not s much (hate the cadence of the thing, he low range and ammo capacity, also feels too light and airy-fairy in my ‘hands’).

AR/BR starts for EVERYTHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!!!

90

> 2533274923562209;88:
> > 2533274883849234;87:
> > > 2533274834607247;70:
> > > I’m seeing a lot of people talk about Magnum starts being a bad thing because it will cause an imbalance when some players have BRs while other don’t. To that I have to ask: Isn’t that the point of a pickup? Different weapons exist to create imbalances. Imbalances cause conflict and keep things interesting. This is why things like power weapons and power positions exist. It’s the struggle to obtain these advantages that makes the whole game function the way it does. So why is it that everyone is suddenly scared of imbalances when it’s about the BR? Creating opportunities for players to gain an advantage, and allowing the better players to come out on top, is the whole point of designing a player versus player experience. If everything were perfectly balanced, there would be no need to change weapons or positions, and the game would stagnate. As it stands now, things are TOO balanced. Nobody feels the need to trade out the BR for any other weapon. With Magnum starts, players would need to move around the map to acquire better weapons to give themselves an advantage, AKA an “imbalance”. Again, this is the point of PvP design.
> > >
> > > There also seems to be some worst case scenario assumptions being made. There is a fear of an enemy team having BRs while yours does not. This is never the case on properly designed maps. Both teams have access to BRs in every map, even asymmetrical ones. In addition, the standard timers for tier one weapons allow for multiple copies of that weapon to be held at any given time, so anyone can acquire one if they need to. This will never change in a matchmaking environment, as there are certain criteria that need to be met before implementation. To top it all off, it is very unlikely that EVERY player of an enemy team will have a BR in a powerful position while your team will not have any. An enemy team having more BRs than you has never been an issue in 4V4, so why would it be a problem in BTB? Here, there are even more people to shoot at a single BR wielder to take them down, more routes to take to approach BR wielders, and more options available to give yourself a different kind of advantage like vehicles or power weapons.
> > >
> > > Now with that all out of the way, here are some other reasons pertaining to PvP design as to why the Magnum is preferable to the BR as a starting weapon:
> > >
> > > - The Magnum empowers the individual.
> > > Two BR wielders only have to shoot a player twice for a perfect kill, while two Magnum wielders have to fire three times in order to account for the fifth shot in a perfect kill. This means there is more room for error, as well as a larger window for the one player to fight back.
> > >
> > > - Magnums are less effective against vehicles.
> > > Vehicles are the defining factor of BTB when compared to 4V4s. Magnums have a harder time shooting drivers and gunners, and would allow vehicles to be at play longer and more often, returning to the classic BTB experience so many people have asked for.
> > >
> > > - Magnums have a shorter effective range.
> > > Halo 5s Magnum has an effective range comparable to that of the H2/H3 BRs. With Magnum starts, players would have to move more to effectively engage enemy players, which would lead to less stagnation and more areas of the map being used. More of the map being used means positions are being used to gain advantages, which goes back to the point of PvP design.
> > >
> > > - Magnums allow segmentation by distance.
> > > Because of the shorter range of the Magnum, long distance sightlines become safer for players to move through. In addition to removing stagnation, this allows designers to be more creative in the way they design their maps. Large open areas can be used as isolated battlegrounds and allow vehicles to be more effective in them. This would again lead to a return to more classic feeling BTB experience.
> > >
> > > Magnum starts would allow a return to a more classic style of BTB that many people have been craving. Vehicles would become more effective and be used more frequently. Large open maps would become viable design choices. Stagnation would be significantly reduced and players would be safer when traversing maps in an attempt to gain better weapons or positions, which is the heart and soul of PvP design. Most importantly, Magnums would empower individuals and allow them to more effectively contribute to their team while increasing the skill gap and allowing the best players to shine.
> >
> >
> > Now watch as this post is ignored by everyone against BR starts because it isn’t the post you see on the first page. It’s sad because this (and my post quoting a bunch of you guys) would shut people up in seconds but because people just jump into conversations after seeing the first five posts, stuff like this will be ignored. Everything you’ve said is true, is a fact. There’s no way to refute any of it! But all people need is “It takes away my precious BR, therefore you are wrong.” because that’s all they care about.
> >
> > They don’t give a damn about what BTB is truly about, they don’t want to see the one playlist where you use a BR that isn’t SWAT ‘ruined’ by people who actually care about BTB.
>
>
> Op could quote the post to his OP on first page. I’d do it for mine but I’m not the op and most people would generally read that then just skip past mine and anyone else. My favorite post is “BRs counter vehicles” when weak vehicles is already part of the issue with btb. Warthogs and ghosts are no where near as used because of BR magnetism RRR.

Neither is the Banshee. Except for those pilots on the enemy team on Altar who somehow dodge every laser, hydra, and sniper thrown at them. And because the map can easily be controlled, combined fire from a team of BR’s is typically out of the question. Otherwise those things go down quicker than a gungoose some times.

91

AR Magnum starts BTB would so much better

92

What’s funny is people once upon a time complained about magnum/AR starts, which is why they switched to BR.

93

> 2533274809217985;92:
> What’s funny is people once upon a time complained about magnum/AR starts, which is why they switched to BR.

BTB was always BR

94

Why not BR and Magnum start? Not saying AR would be eliminated but it would still be able to pick up. I would much prefer this because it would take a lot more skill. Not saying btb is sweaty but BR and Magnum would be the way to go. In other halos the AR wasnt a problem but now since it is OP in H5. The AR has to go. I at least think they should try it out for a week and let the community vote. We need a precision weapon playlist (not swat) in h5 and BTB would be a great place to start.

95

> 2533274809217985;92:
> What’s funny is people once upon a time complained about magnum/AR starts, which is why they switched to BR.

It was always BR starts.

96

> 2533274891097288;94:
> Why not BR and Magnum start. Not saying AR would be eliminated but it would still be able to pick up. I would much prefer this because it would take a lot more skill. Not saying btb is sweaty but BR and Magnum would be the way to go. In other halos the AR wasnt a problem but now since it is OP in H5. The AR has to go. I at least think they should try it out for a week and let the community vote. We need a precision weapon playlist (not swat) in h5 and BTB would be a great place to start.

There’s no point in BR+Magnum when the BR is obviously more powerful, no one would use the Magnum because it’s outclassed by the BR unless they want a handicap. Magnum+AR is the perfect balance and will make things like warthogs relevant again, the BR is just too powerful for a starting weapon in Halo 5.

97

> 2533274883849234;95:
> > 2533274809217985;92:
> > What’s funny is people once upon a time complained about magnum/AR starts, which is why they switched to BR.
>
>
> It was always BR starts.

Pretty H2, had mangum/Ar, then people freaked about getting it changed. Big maps like that need BRs.

98

> 2535458232742189;1:
> How many of you want it. Let’s get this to the front page. I encourage forgers and BTB map creators to comment and create topics about this.
>
> Edit: The basis for this topic can be sumed up in this 7 minute video Battle Rifle or Magnum Starts in BTB? (Halo 5 Design Talk) - YouTube

they already had a survey for this.

99

> 2533274809217985;97:
> > 2533274883849234;95:
> > > 2533274809217985;92:
> > > What’s funny is people once upon a time complained about magnum/AR starts, which is why they switched to BR.
> >
> >
> > It was always BR starts.
>
>
> Pretty H2, had mangum/Ar, then people freaked about getting it changed. Big maps like that need BRs.

Oh I thought you meant Halo 5.

100

> 2533274938709455;96:
> > 2533274891097288;94:
> > Why not BR and Magnum start. Not saying AR would be eliminated but it would still be able to pick up. I would much prefer this because it would take a lot more skill. Not saying btb is sweaty but BR and Magnum would be the way to go. In other halos the AR wasnt a problem but now since it is OP in H5. The AR has to go. I at least think they should try it out for a week and let the community vote. We need a precision weapon playlist (not swat) in h5 and BTB would be a great place to start.
>
>
> There’s no point in BR+Magnum when the BR is obviously more powerful, no one would use the Magnum because it’s outclassed by the BR unless they want a handicap. Magnum+AR is the perfect balance and will make things like warthogs relevant again, the BR is just too powerful for a starting weapon in Halo 5.

What other weapon would you have with the magnum without the AR. I would prefer anything else besides other autos.