BTB Magnum/Ar Starts

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > > oh god not this -Yoink- again…leave us BR fans alone!
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> > > > >
> > > > > How about you leave us BTB fans alone? BTB is and always have been large scale, vehicular warfare. The BR all but ruins vehicle gameplay in Halo 5.
> > > > >
> > > > > And don’t you dare say go to Warzone. Because that is not the large-scale combat everyone wants and it does not favor vehicle combat at all.
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> > > > > BTB is not the BR playlist so stop trying to make it into that.
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> > > >
> > > > I think you mean sprint ruins BTB and vehicle gameplay. Also Halo has always been BR starts since Halo 2 unless it was on small maps.
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> > >
> > > Sorry to say, but the only reason Halo’s been BR starts is because Bungie didn’t really know how to properly balance a weapon sandbox, not nearly as well as 343 does in 5, at least.
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> >
> > What was not properly balanced in Bungie’s Halo games that resulted in BR starts? I am actually curious.
>
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> the sandbox was stagnant, you didn’t need or even want to pick up any other weapon sans a rocket launcher because the BR was the barnone top of the food chain of non power weapon pick ups and you spawned with it.
>
> For an arena shooter, that’s super egregious, as a bad sandbox means map movement is usually terrible as well.

Right now in Arena, you are basically summing up Halo 5 gameplay. The weapons on Halo 5 are AR/Magnum, with 2-4 SMGs, 2 BRs or 2DMRs, and a couple of power weapons. This is current Halo 5 4v4, and you want to talk about stagnant. I mean where are all of those Halo 5 weapons? What happened to the Halo 5 sandbox? A BR in Halo 5 only makes the magnum pointless for the sake of making BTB a better gamemode because of it. Also Halo 2/3 had more weapons in the sandbox than Halo 5. Sure not every weapon was a go to, but the weapons on Halo 3 were very useful. Bruteshot was a medium tier weapon that could do some damage. Needler was about as effective as Halo 5. Mauler was about as effective as the shotgun, but could be duel wielded. SMG was effective when combined with a Plasma Rifle or Spiker. Duel Spikers were OP in close quarters. In Halo 3 every weapon had a purpose especially when it was AR/Magnum starts. BR starts was a variant and very popular because gave players variety in the gameplay, something Halo 5 fails to offer. Not to mention the noob combo being very popular with the BR giving it a very important purpose along with disabling vehicles. I honestly think you are over exaggerating the effects of the BR in previous games. Yes the BR was the go to weapon, but if it wasn’t BR starts, and on certain maps, the BR was hard to obtain, and it caused havoc when it was obtained, the same kind of havoc that can be caused in Halo 5 if BTB became AR/Magnum starts.

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> > > > > > > oh god not this -Yoink- again…leave us BR fans alone!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How about you leave us BTB fans alone? BTB is and always have been large scale, vehicular warfare. The BR all but ruins vehicle gameplay in Halo 5.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And don’t you dare say go to Warzone. Because that is not the large-scale combat everyone wants and it does not favor vehicle combat at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTB is not the BR playlist so stop trying to make it into that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you mean sprint ruins BTB and vehicle gameplay. Also Halo has always been BR starts since Halo 2 unless it was on small maps.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to say, but the only reason Halo’s been BR starts is because Bungie didn’t really know how to properly balance a weapon sandbox, not nearly as well as 343 does in 5, at least.
> > >
> > >
> > > What was not properly balanced in Bungie’s Halo games that resulted in BR starts? I am actually curious.
> >
> >
> > the sandbox was stagnant, you didn’t need or even want to pick up any other weapon sans a rocket launcher because the BR was the barnone top of the food chain of non power weapon pick ups and you spawned with it.
> >
> > For an arena shooter, that’s super egregious, as a bad sandbox means map movement is usually terrible as well.
>
>
> Right now in Arena, you are basically summing up Halo 5 gameplay. The weapons on Halo 5 are AR/Magnum, with 2-4 SMGs, 2 BRs or 2DMRs, and a couple of power weapons. This is current Halo 5 4v4, and you want to talk about stagnant. I mean where are all of those Halo 5 weapons? What happened to the Halo 5 sandbox? A BR in Halo 5 only makes the magnum pointless for the sake of making BTB a better gamemode because of it. Also Halo 2/3 had more weapons in the sandbox than Halo 5. Sure not every weapon was a go to, but the weapons on Halo 3 were very useful. Bruteshot was a medium tier weapon that could do some damage. Needler was about as effective as Halo 5. Mauler was about as effective as the shotgun, but could be duel wielded. SMG was effective when combined with a Plasma Rifle or Spiker. Duel Spikers were OP in close quarters. In Halo 3 every weapon had a purpose especially when it was AR/Magnum starts. BR starts was a variant and very popular because gave players variety in the gameplay, something Halo 5 fails to offer. Not to mention the noob combo being very popular with the BR giving it a very important purpose along with disabling vehicles. I honestly think you are over exaggerating the effects of the BR in previous games. Yes the BR was the go to weapon, but if it wasn’t BR starts, and on certain maps, the BR was hard to obtain, and it caused havoc when it was obtained, the same kind of havoc that can be caused in Halo 5 if BTB became AR/Magnum starts.

just because you don’t use them and can’t recognize the tradeoffs of these weapons doesn’t mean the sandbox is redundant.

The BR would still beat all of those weapons, it doesn’t matter how many weapons you have in the game if they all suck -Yoink- versus the starter. I don’t remember ever going “WOW A BRUTESHOT/MAULER/SMG/MAGNUM/SPIKER I SHOULD TOTALLY DROP MY BR FOR THIS” never happened, becaues the sandbox was awful

funny how you talk about redundancy and then bring up Halo 3, as if the SMG wasn’t just a better spiker and the shotgun just a mauler you didn’t have to duelwield.

“BR starts gave variety”

are you kidding me?

63

I can see why some people would like AR/Pistol starts in BTB but honestly, I just don’t see it going well on most maps. Some I think it would work ok, but others it’d be brutal!!! Maps like sand trap or whatever it’s call in H5 would be terrible without BR starts. The map is already so big because of Sprint, I don’t want it so I have to get to the middle of the map just to hit someone. I already spend half my matches just trying to find someone as is. There is a ton of vehicle play already in BTB. I’ve played a crap load the last two days so I’d know. I honestly think BR starts in BTB is the way to go. I’m not against trying things, but in this case I’d rather keep it as is. BR starts in BTB are the way to go I feel :slight_smile:

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> > > > > > > > oh god not this -Yoink- again…leave us BR fans alone!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How about you leave us BTB fans alone? BTB is and always have been large scale, vehicular warfare. The BR all but ruins vehicle gameplay in Halo 5.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And don’t you dare say go to Warzone. Because that is not the large-scale combat everyone wants and it does not favor vehicle combat at all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTB is not the BR playlist so stop trying to make it into that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you mean sprint ruins BTB and vehicle gameplay. Also Halo has always been BR starts since Halo 2 unless it was on small maps.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The halo 5 BR and the halo 2/3 BR are not even close to the same thing as far as gameplay, the magnum is halo 5s utility weapon, past games balancing choices are irrelevant to halo 5s balancing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > How is the gameplay different from Halo 2/3 BTB and Halo 5 BTB? Also what proof do you have that the magnum would be better overall in BTB than the BR considering they are both utility weapons, however 1 being better than the other statistically, so why would you give a player the worse one to start out with that has clear disadvantages on maps as large as the BTB maps in Halo 5? Once a player picks up a BR in BTB if it was Magnum starts, that player with the BR would have a massive advantage at far ranges. The only solution would be to remove ALL precision weapon pickups, thus reducing the sandbox.
> > >
> > >
> > > because the point of the starter weapon is that you want to drop it for something else, if you already have a weapon that’s better than half the sandbox for the environments you’re fighting in (large expanses, clear sightlines) the game just stalemates out because no one has to move anywhere or do anything.
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> >
> > So you say. Which weapons are worse then the BR that were not worse than the magnum. Also stalemates are what happens when you get pushed into your spawn but you don’t want to give up, so you sit in there waiting for your enemies to come to you. This would happen more often if magnums were starting weapons in BTB because the ranges benefit BRs and other precision weapons. They would have to put a BR up every 10 seconds to make it fair for any team, but at that point why not just give everyone a BR, and we are back to square one. Or you can take my other suggestion and just remove all precision weapons from the map so that the Magnum is the only weapon that way stalemates would be the same as when there was BR starts.
>
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> the BR is better than pretty much every other precision weapon at mid range, the DMR and Light rifle are slightly better at longer ranges and the Carbine is slightly better at closer ones, but it’s much more adaptable than those 3, meaning you can take it into other scenarios and still do fine while still excelling at mid range combat with is 90% of BTB firefights.
>
> You do realize that proper map control rewards you with weapon pick ups, right? if you’re getting analed by the other team because you can’t rotate properly, that’s your own damn fault, maybe next time you’ll remember where and when weapons spawn so you don’t get boned out of the gate.
>
> BR starts are a crutch for bad players, in exactly the way you described it.

Proper map control can be obtained with or without a BR, but controlling it in magnum starts will become much easier. Obtaining a BR in BTB with magnum start would be like picking on the short kids at school while you hold their head so their arms won’t reach. They can’t fight back. Why would anyone want to play a game like that?

Also how is BR starts a crutch? Wouldn’t obtaining a BR and picking on the short kids be a crutch just the way I described it? I think so. BR starts gives everyone an equal fighting chance in a game like BTB. Only bad kids want easy kills because they are range and accuracy handicapped.

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> just because you don’t use them and can’t recognize the tradeoffs of these weapons doesn’t mean the sandbox is redundant.
>
> The BR would still beat all of those weapons, it doesn’t matter how many weapons you have in the game if they all suck -Yoink- versus the starter. I don’t remember ever going “WOW A BRUTESHOT/MAULER/SMG/MAGNUM/SPIKER I SHOULD TOTALLY DROP MY BR FOR THIS” never happened, becaues the sandbox was awful
>
> funny how you talk about redundancy and then bring up Halo 3, as if the SMG wasn’t just a better spiker and the shotgun just a mauler you didn’t have to duelwield.
>
> “BR starts gave variety”
>
> are you kidding me?

Um my statement about the weapon on the map is true in Arena. There is only about 1/3 of the weapons in the game playable in Arena, not including variants of weapons. BRs would definitely beat the weapons I listed, but it depends on the situation also. Many situations an AR would be better than the BR, but people had to have something called skill back in Halo 3, unlike today where an AR can easily out gun a magnum up close.
I always picked up the Bruteshot even in BR starts back in Halo 2/3. It was a very effective near insta-kill weapon. 1 shot melee. The Mauler was the same way. SMG and Spikers were very good when those were not an option because they took shields and health down quicker than the AR. The BR still had a chance to out gun them, but as I said, it took skill.

Actually since weapons were scattered around the map, you had choices. Today’s Halo 5 map has either a DMR here, a BR there, an SMG over there, or a Power Weapon right here. Not many choices at all.

Your case about the Halo 5 sandbox being the best is false because Halo 5’s Arena sandbox is extremely poor, worse than any Halo previously. The difference is that autos like the SMG and Plasma Rifle are much more effective than ever before and to the point where they are almost guaranteed a kill something that breaks the point of even having a Magnum if it isn’t good up close or at range.

Halo 3 BR starts added a variety from the more common AR/Magnum starts. Something that people who actually played Halo 2 or 3 would know.

66

With the update BTB has just received, I really don’t mind the BR starts. I only mind them when I’m playing on Boulevard (Slayer on that map drives me up the wall).

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I don’t make any maps, but I play them, a lot. I would love fore two or three maps to be with AR/Magnum starts. I think deadlock(The Snow one with all the promethian -Yoink-) would work well with it, I may be wrong, Though I would like to try this out.

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i would actually like DMR/pistol starts. not sure why just would

69

Yes please! The pistol is a viable weapon at range now. No need for BR starts.

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I’m seeing a lot of people talk about Magnum starts being a bad thing because it will cause an imbalance when some players have BRs while other don’t. To that I have to ask: Isn’t that the point of a pickup? Different weapons exist to create imbalances. Imbalances cause conflict and keep things interesting. This is why things like power weapons and power positions exist. It’s the struggle to obtain these advantages that makes the whole game function the way it does. So why is it that everyone is suddenly scared of imbalances when it’s about the BR? Creating opportunities for players to gain an advantage, and allowing the better players to come out on top, is the whole point of designing a player versus player experience. If everything were perfectly balanced, there would be no need to change weapons or positions, and the game would stagnate. As it stands now, things are TOO balanced. Nobody feels the need to trade out the BR for any other weapon. With Magnum starts, players would need to move around the map to acquire better weapons to give themselves an advantage, AKA an “imbalance”. Again, this is the point of PvP design.

There also seems to be some worst case scenario assumptions being made. There is a fear of an enemy team having BRs while yours does not. This is never the case on properly designed maps. Both teams have access to BRs in every map, even asymmetrical ones. In addition, the standard timers for tier one weapons allow for multiple copies of that weapon to be held at any given time, so anyone can acquire one if they need to. This will never change in a matchmaking environment, as there are certain criteria that need to be met before implementation. To top it all off, it is very unlikely that EVERY player of an enemy team will have a BR in a powerful position while your team will not have any. An enemy team having more BRs than you has never been an issue in 4V4, so why would it be a problem in BTB? Here, there are even more people to shoot at a single BR wielder to take them down, more routes to take to approach BR wielders, and more options available to give yourself a different kind of advantage like vehicles or power weapons.

Now with that all out of the way, here are some other reasons pertaining to PvP design as to why the Magnum is preferable to the BR as a starting weapon:

- The Magnum empowers the individual.
Two BR wielders only have to shoot a player twice for a perfect kill, while two Magnum wielders have to fire three times in order to account for the fifth shot in a perfect kill. This means there is more room for error, as well as a larger window for the one player to fight back.

- Magnums are less effective against vehicles.
Vehicles are the defining factor of BTB when compared to 4V4s. Magnums have a harder time shooting drivers and gunners, and would allow vehicles to be at play longer and more often, returning to the classic BTB experience so many people have asked for.

- Magnums have a shorter effective range.
Halo 5s Magnum has an effective range comparable to that of the H2/H3 BRs. With Magnum starts, players would have to move more to effectively engage enemy players, which would lead to less stagnation and more areas of the map being used. More of the map being used means positions are being used to gain advantages, which goes back to the point of PvP design.

- Magnums allow segmentation by distance.
Because of the shorter range of the Magnum, long distance sightlines become safer for players to move through. In addition to removing stagnation, this allows designers to be more creative in the way they design their maps. Large open areas can be used as isolated battlegrounds and allow vehicles to be more effective in them. This would again lead to a return to more classic feeling BTB experience.

Magnum starts would allow a return to a more classic style of BTB that many people have been craving. Vehicles would become more effective and be used more frequently. Large open maps would become viable design choices. Stagnation would be significantly reduced and players would be safer when traversing maps in an attempt to gain better weapons or positions, which is the heart and soul of PvP design. Most importantly, Magnums would empower individuals and allow them to more effectively contribute to their team while increasing the skill gap and allowing the best players to shine.

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Also, anyone who is at least willing to give Magnum starts a chance, please vote on THIS poll from Halo Customs. We need to rally as many followers as possible to show 343 that the community is serious about this topic.

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This would be best in Arena, I don’t fully agree with WZ though

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> 2535458232742189;1:
> How many of you want it. Let’s get this to the front page. I encourage forgers and BTB map creators to comment and create topics about this.

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> Magnum starts would be the logical thing to do, especially when these maps were tested and designed for magnum starts. Hint hint 343?
>
> to go into detail on my issues with BR starts and why the magnum would suit it better as the starting weapon: the BR is to easy to use, it has to much magnetism to it and at long sight lines and so much open space it makes it to easy to lock down parts of a map or make an unnecessary dead zone. The magnum doesn’t have as much magnetism to it and is also limited in range, make it more challenging to create these dead zones. Having the BR as a pickup is fine as its much more limited in how often it’s used and is in a sense, a mini power weapon but one that can be countered much easier than a team of 8 all using it. Had the BR been designed like previous halo games or h5s magnum, I’d have no issue, but it just doesn’t fit well in this game as a good starting weapon.
>
> A good example I have is guile time? The map that’s all grass and has satellites. Both teams are pretty much restricted to their side of the map due to the BR being able to hit consistently across the map where as a magnum start makes pushes happen more often and requires you to move up on the pushes to stop them, rather than sitting at the back of the map with the BR.
>
> Solutions: go to magnum starts, or fix the sight lines big time to make the BR fit better, or make the BR harder to use at longer range (I.E. Reduce range and magnetism).

I am going to reply to both of your comments, one because you’re the OP of this topic and two because you took time to think and write out your answer. I do agree with you in the sense that areas of maps can be locked down tighter than a tics -Yoink-, but that’s solely due to the your team allowing that to happen. It isn’t a re-occurring situation, therefor it isn’t a problem. There will always be games where the enemy team is just very well coordinated and gains a leg up on you. It happens to the best of us! However, if you remove the starting weapon BR and replace it with a Magnum, then no worries, enjoy being spawn raped by every single vehicle on the map. The argument I bring to you with this is, yes you might be a little angry about the start off weapons now but that’s because you haven’t taken into consideration the mass power weapons available, the arsenal of readily available long distance vehicles on the map. The BR really closes the gap for vehicles and to suggest removing the only counter is silly (in my opinion). Take into consideration EVERY VARIABLE! Because you certainly aren’t taking down that Banshee with a Magnum, and you definitely aren’t killing any Spartans on ground vehicles when they are distance shooting you. On top of that as well, the ammo count for a magnum is significantly less than a BR. It’s called BTB for a reason. If everyone is using a Magnum then everyone is going to spend half the game reloading and that’s not fun. For example 2v1 scenarios pop up all the time, would you rather kill one and lose to the other or, outmaneuver your enemy and get that sweet double! Or possibly even triple! This is my view on it.

PLEASE RESPOND!

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> 2535429702231966;3:
> How about AR and Plasma Pistols starts on Arena maps. I would be completely down for that.

Did Halo 3 have a version of that? That would be interesting.

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> 2533274834607247;71:
> Also, anyone who is at least willing to give Magnum starts a chance, please vote on THIS poll from Halo Customs. We need to rally as many followers as possible to show 343 that the community is serious about this topic.

Thanks for the poll! I have voted for BR. My reasoning behind it is because two weeks after the Magnum is implemented we will see the community complain about vehicles never being destroyed. Why? Because you will never get close enough to kill or destroy the vehicle. I loved Halo 4 BTB because I would go 40-0 in vehicles. But I can bet a million bucks that the other team didn’t enjoy it one bit! Especially when I won games by default because everyone rage quit. Imagine H5 with that, nobody can quit early so they just have to wait out the pain of being destroyed by the same vehicle over and over again. I love reading this down the side of my screen!

Killed by - Same Person
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Killed by - Same Person
Killed by - Same Person
Killed by - Same Person
Killed by - Same Person
Killed by - Same Person
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You will find the only people wanting the Magnum back are the people that are not your friends, because all they’re thinking about is sweet vehicle kills for days because I can’t use a precision weapon for -Yoink-!
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong! Because this is just my opinion!

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> 2535445608274502;75:
> > 2533274834607247;71:
> > Also, anyone who is at least willing to give Magnum starts a chance, please vote on THIS poll from Halo Customs. We need to rally as many followers as possible to show 343 that the community is serious about this topic.
>
>
>
> Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!

Did you even bother to read my previous posts?

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hell no

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To put it simply, BR starts in BTB are fine in games like Halo 3, which had projectile bullets. In games like Halo 5, which has hitscan bullets, it would be better to have Magnum starts.

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I do not know … If you ask a Forger to create a map designed to use AR / MAG at the start , You should respect His work , right ? I had tried too many times made ​​to forge map, but it always won me , so if someone has made ​​a great map and you decided to put in your game playlist, I think You should respect that…

80

Br and magnum start