Bring back playing as Sangheili (Elites)

Ever since I got Halo 3, I’ve always played as an Elite. When I got Reach I was very upset that I could only play as an Elite in Invasion and only half of the time, you didn’t even really get to customize them. Now Halo 4 to me is almost unplayable, they took to much of Halo out. I really wish that 343 didn’t stuff out like that.

As far as story goes, if you’re going to put flood in, then put Elites in. I know some people disagree but I know a lot of people that miss playing as elites. IMO 343 isn’t listening that much to the community, the population is one example. All the other threads talking about what has been taken out or changed about halo are another prime example. Please 343 just listen to us!

bump

Edit: 5 poll votes but no replies?

I don’t think it’s completely 343’s fault that they’re gone. I think it was mostly the 360’s ageing tech that was the problem and the lack of time.

It can already be seen that 343 have no intention of letting cannon get in the way of game play. eg Griffball, Covenant/Promethean equipment.

The armor in Halo 4 looks kinda incomplete as it is. Missing sets like CQB, Mk V, ODST etc and I’ve noticed things in S ops like DiMarco’s leg armor not being available in the armory.

Remember that there was so much content that they couldn’t cram it into the one disc.

343 probably saw from the start that there wasn’t going to be enough time and space for Elites so they put their efforts towards the Spartans.

The X1 will provide the up to date tech for Elites and all the other goodies we want, hopefully 343 will be given the proper amount of time to do it.

Completely agree ^

> I don’t think it’s completely 343’s fault that they’re gone. I think it was mostly the 360’s ageing tech that was the problem and the lack of time.
>
> It can already be seen that 343 have no intention of letting cannon get in the way of game play. eg Griffball, Covenant/Promethean equipment.
>
> The armor in Halo 4 looks kinda incomplete as it is. Missing sets like CQB, Mk V, ODST etc and I’ve noticed things in S ops like DiMarco’s leg armor not being available in the armory.
>
> Remember that there was so much content that they couldn’t cram it into the one disc.
>
> 343 probably saw from the start that there wasn’t going to be enough time and space for Elites so they put their efforts towards the Spartans.
>
> The X1 will provide the up to date tech for Elites and all the other goodies we want, hopefully 343 will be given the proper amount of time to do it.

That’s a fabricated excuse, not an explanation. The character models for Elites are already in the game (see Campaign), so there really was no reason to exclude them. Especially since if you add all the available armour in multiplayer together, you already get more sets of armour than Halo 3 OR Reach (and that’s counting all the armour for Spartans and Elites combined).

They were removed for as far as I can tell no reason, and it’s ruined a lot of the immersion for fans of the species, and actually put the Elite community in a position where most of their clans are either dead, or reduced to 10- members and hanging by a thread. And almost all of them spend more time on Reach, or Halo 3 than they do on Halo 4 simply for that fact.

And it’s just plain insulting that they removed them the ONE TIME they give us the option to spawn with Covenant tech.

> I don’t think it’s completely 343’s fault that they’re gone. I think it was mostly the 360’s ageing tech that was the problem and the lack of time.
>
> It can already be seen that 343 have no intention of letting cannon get in the way of game play. eg Griffball, Covenant/Promethean equipment.
>
> The armor in Halo 4 looks kinda incomplete as it is. Missing sets like CQB, Mk V, ODST etc and I’ve noticed things in S ops like DiMarco’s leg armor not being available in the armory.
>
> Remember that there was so much content that they couldn’t cram it into the one disc.
>
> 343 probably saw from the start that there wasn’t going to be enough time and space for Elites so they put their efforts towards the Spartans.
>
> The X1 will provide the up to date tech for Elites and all the other goodies we want, hopefully 343 will be given the proper amount of time to do it.

So they had limited space? How the heck did they get something as massive as forge island into the game then? As far as I know, that was completely unplanned on 343i’s part and was brought into the game due to the shout outs from the forge community.

I’m not trying to challenge you, but the speculation you gave doesn’t seem to add up when they were able to add stuff after release. Why give us a giant forge map, but not elites?

> > I don’t think it’s completely 343’s fault that they’re gone. I think it was mostly the 360’s ageing tech that was the problem and the lack of time.
> >
> > It can already be seen that 343 have no intention of letting cannon get in the way of game play. eg Griffball, Covenant/Promethean equipment.
> >
> > The armor in Halo 4 looks kinda incomplete as it is. Missing sets like CQB, Mk V, ODST etc and I’ve noticed things in S ops like DiMarco’s leg armor not being available in the armory.
> >
> > Remember that there was so much content that they couldn’t cram it into the one disc.
> >
> > 343 probably saw from the start that there wasn’t going to be enough time and space for Elites so they put their efforts towards the Spartans.
> >
> > The X1 will provide the up to date tech for Elites and all the other goodies we want, hopefully 343 will be given the proper amount of time to do it.
>
> So they had limited space? How the heck did they get something as massive as forge island into the game then? As far as I know, that was completely unplanned on 343i’s part and was brought into the game due to the shout outs from the forge community.
>
> I’m not trying to challenge you, but the speculation you gave doesn’t seem to add up when they were able to add stuff after release. Why give us a giant forge map, but not elites?

Multiplayer is now canon. No significant human-friendly sangheili forces have been mentioned in game. Creating an entire playable character is far more difficult than a mere forge map. Examples below:

-armory customization (colors, pieces, etc.)
-emblem location on armor
-integrating HUD cameras
-rescripting and coding fuctions such as weapon pick up, reloading, swapping weapons, etc.
-allowing base player traits to be modified for customs/forge
-enabling the usage of powerups, and AAs to be usable by elites
-scripting the ability for a player elite to be on a multiplayer map
-vehicle usage animations for elites

You see, it’s quite a list and I’m sure I haven’t said everything. But I sure as hell hope they return :slight_smile:

> > > I don’t think it’s completely 343’s fault that they’re gone. I think it was mostly the 360’s ageing tech that was the problem and the lack of time.
> > >
> > > It can already be seen that 343 have no intention of letting cannon get in the way of game play. eg Griffball, Covenant/Promethean equipment.
> > >
> > > The armor in Halo 4 looks kinda incomplete as it is. Missing sets like CQB, Mk V, ODST etc and I’ve noticed things in S ops like DiMarco’s leg armor not being available in the armory.
> > >
> > > Remember that there was so much content that they couldn’t cram it into the one disc.
> > >
> > > 343 probably saw from the start that there wasn’t going to be enough time and space for Elites so they put their efforts towards the Spartans.
> > >
> > > The X1 will provide the up to date tech for Elites and all the other goodies we want, hopefully 343 will be given the proper amount of time to do it.
> >
> > So they had limited space? How the heck did they get something as massive as forge island into the game then? As far as I know, that was completely unplanned on 343i’s part and was brought into the game due to the shout outs from the forge community.
> >
> > I’m not trying to challenge you, but the speculation you gave doesn’t seem to add up when they were able to add stuff after release. Why give us a giant forge map, but not elites?
>
> Multiplayer is now canon. No significant human-friendly sangheili forces have been mentioned in game. Creating an entire playable character is far more difficult than a mere forge map. Examples below:
>
> -armory customization (colors, pieces, etc.)
> -emblem location on armor
> -integrating HUD cameras
> -rescripting and coding fuctions such as weapon pick up, reloading, swapping weapons, etc.
> -allowing base player traits to be modified for customs/forge
> -enabling the usage of powerups, and AAs to be usable by elites
> -scripting the ability for a player elite to be on a multiplayer map
> -vehicle usage animations for elites
>
> You see, it’s quite a list and I’m sure I haven’t said everything. But I sure as hell hope they return :slight_smile:

You added stuff in there that really isn’t all that necessary. The Elite model animations for every vehicle in the game are already in the game, Elites can and will get into human vehicles if you leave them laying around in close proximity, and any animation to carry a Storm Rifle, Plasma Pistol, or Fuel Rod Gun can be reused for any UNSC or Forerunner weapon of similar proportion. The only unique animations being the Sword, which Elites already have, and the Hammer, as well as proper reloading animations which already exist in the game’s code for all the Covenant and Forerunner weapons Elites carry in Campaign and Spartan Ops, so it’d just be a little bit of wireframe work.

Weapon pickup is a player trait, and player traits would carry over no matter what player model you are, as the “player” and the “model” are actually two different things. As well, base player traits apply to the player, not the player’s model. And the only AA’s that would need any integration would be the Regen Field, Hardlight Shield, Thrust Pack, and Turret, and only because they have unique animations. Which is again simple wireframe work.

The Armour for Elites already exists in the campaign, so the only hurdle would be colouring them, and creating a UI in the Armoury menu (which is honestly not that hard or time consuming).

There is no reason the Elites should have a different HUD from the Spartan HUD, the only reason they did in Halo 3, and Reach was by the developers’ choice. And in Halo 2 the only difference was the colour. The only first person thing the developers would need to develop is the hands and reload animations, not that big a deal considering they were able to animate your hands for every single wrist permutation, colour, and skin for the Spartans. As well as the feet. Making a few more, or simply having a couple of less options for the Spartans wouldn’t have killed the game.

Putting the emblem on the armour would be no different from doing it for every single Spartan shoulder in the game. Not a hurdle since it proves that they can do it. Or they could simple do what they did in Reach and make it so the emblem doesn’t appear on the Elites, just on the Spartans.

And finally, if they were able to script Elites on to every map in Halo 2, 3, AND Reach. As well as script every weapon onto them in Halo 2, Reach, and 4 (Halo 3 being something of an exception for whatever reason). There’s no reason they couldn’t do it again in Halo 4. Besides, several Covenant models are scripted onto the multiplayer maps that appear in Spartan Ops. And most of the maps in the game use ripped information from Campaign missions to get all their texturing info.

As for the plot. There being no UNSC friendly Elites was not a necessary or important plot decision. They didn’t put them in because they chose not to, the game would have been no different if they just added a line or two implying that friendly Elites were on board the Infinity. And used a couple of CG models from other cutscenes to have a few appear in the background. The story would have been unaffected.

You talk like making a player model requires you to basically rewrite the entire code that makes a player to begin with. But it doesn’t. You just apply a skin over the player. It’s really no different from giving a Spartan a different helmet. (Aside from your helmet not affecting your character’s animations). Everything else they have to add is either wireframe work for 3rd person animation, and 1st person Hud elements. All of which is pretty trivial since the vast majority of animations require already exist in their AI code.

They don’t even need to bother going the extra mile Bungie did in Reach of making Elite players have different statistics than Spartan players. All they have to do is shrink the Campaign model, and scale the campaign animations and hitboxes to roughly .8x the size so they align in height and width with a Spartan (which if you’ve played the modded gametypes Mini Slayer or the giant Flood/Spartan modes, you know is actually pretty easy for them to do). Which could have the Canonical explanation that for whatever reason the simulation program on the Infinity won’t render one “player” as a different size than another “player”.

All of which is far more difficult than building a map. Building a map requires you to create the geometry (with the level of required detail to look like it belongs in the game, in Halo 4’s case, that’s a lot of detail), as well as texturing, and in the case of a Forge map, creating all the pieces (Forge World features new skins for every structure piece, and several new pieces that didn’t exist before). And Forge World needed to create the water, which was animated, and the mist above the water near the islands. As well as that beautiful skybox which is unique to the map.

I’m not sure how much you know about game design. But it sounds like it’s not a whole lot. I spent a lot of time modding PC games to create new maps, campaign levels, character skins and models, weapons, etc. Trust me, making a new character model is one of the easier things to do (though not as easy as creating a new character skin. But that should be obvious).

^

A lot of that sounds a bit dodgy. Are you sure? We’ve never seen any of those things done in any other Halo game so maybe the engine just doesn’t allow it.

They can’t add CSR so changing the armory, Spartan ID, service records, menu options etc would probably be out of the question.

As for Forge world being implemented I’m pretty sure it was made of stuff that was already in the game and not actually adding anything new like the Ragnarok textures for example and I’d imagine manipulating a map would be simpler than a player model.

But hey I’m no expert game designer but if you guys have actual expertise regarding this than by all means 343 should implement Elites.

I got a question though. What about assassination animations?

> You added stuff in there that really isn’t all that necessary. The Elite model animations for <mark>every vehicle in the game are already in the game</mark>, Elites can and will get into human vehicles if you leave them laying around in close proximity, and <mark>any animation to carry a Storm Rifle, Plasma Pistol, or Fuel Rod Gun can be reused for any UNSC or Forerunner weapon of similar proportion</mark>. The only unique animations being the Sword, which Elites already have, and the Hammer, as well as proper reloading animations which already exist in the game’s code for all the Covenant and Forerunner weapons Elites carry in Campaign and Spartan Ops, so it’d just be a little bit of wireframe work.
>
> <mark>Weapon pickup is a player trait, and player traits would carry over no matter what player model you are, as the “player” and the “model” are actually two different things. As well, base player traits apply to the player, not the player’s model. And the only AA’s that would need any integration would be the Regen Field, Hardlight Shield, Thrust Pack, and Turret, and only because they have unique animations. Which is again simple wireframe work.</mark>
>
> <mark>The Armour for Elites already exists in the campaign, so the only hurdle would be colouring them, and creating a UI in the Armoury menu (which is honestly not that hard or time consuming).</mark>
>
> <mark>There is no reason the Elites should have a different HUD from the Spartan HUD, the only reason they did in Halo 3, and Reach was by the developers’ choice.</mark> And in Halo 2 the only difference was the colour. The only first person thing the developers would need to develop is the hands and reload animations, not that big a deal considering they were able to animate your hands for every single wrist permutation, colour, and skin for the Spartans. As well as the feet. Making a few more, or simply having a couple of less options for the Spartans wouldn’t have killed the game.
>
> Putting the emblem on the armour would be no different from doing it for every single Spartan shoulder in the game. Not a hurdle since it proves that they can do it. Or they could simple do what they did in Reach and make it so the emblem doesn’t appear on the Elites, just on the Spartans.
>
> And finally, if they were able to script Elites on to every map in Halo 2, 3, AND Reach. As well as script every weapon onto them in Halo 2, Reach, and 4 (Halo 3 being something of an exception for whatever reason). There’s no reason they couldn’t do it again in Halo 4. Besides, several Covenant models are scripted onto the multiplayer maps that appear in Spartan Ops. And most of the maps in the game use ripped information from Campaign missions to get all their texturing info.
>
> As for the plot. There being no UNSC friendly Elites was not a necessary or important plot decision. They didn’t put them in because they chose not to, the game would have been no different if they just added a line or two implying that friendly Elites were on board the Infinity. And used a couple of CG models from other cutscenes to have a few appear in the background. The story would have been unaffected.
>
> You talk like making a player model requires you to basically rewrite the entire code that makes a player to begin with. But it doesn’t. You just apply a skin over the player. It’s really no different from giving a Spartan a different helmet. (Aside from your helmet not affecting your character’s animations). Everything else they have to add is either wireframe work for 3rd person animation, and 1st person Hud elements. All of which is pretty trivial since the vast majority of animations require already exist in their AI code.
>
> They don’t even need to bother going the extra mile Bungie did in Reach of making Elite players have different statistics than Spartan players. All they have to do is shrink the Campaign model, and scale the campaign animations and hitboxes to roughly .8x the size so they align in height and width with a Spartan (which if you’ve played the modded gametypes Mini Slayer or the giant Flood/Spartan modes, you know is actually pretty easy for them to do). Which could have the Canonical explanation that for whatever reason the simulation program on the Infinity won’t render one “player” as a different size than another “player”.

  1. They do not ever enter the scorpion, warthog turret, mongoose passenger, or mantis. They do not even drive UNSC vehicles, they just throw the player out.

  2. That’s scripted into the spartan player model. I guess you could transfer that skeleton into the elite model, but you’d still have to work the elite’s body parts (arms, fingers).

  3. 343i would still have to give elites the same animations spartans can have when their traits are edited. It’s not like they press a button and elites are able to have a 2x shield buff or can run 300% faster.

  4. You still have to get each individual skin for elites to be scripted into the elite player model. Plus, I doubt 343i would have just left us without the ability to change parts like Reach if they had the time.

  5. Since when did the elites and humans develop their armors to be the same? If you’re going to support the elite faction of the Halo fans, you should realize most of them like elite canon staying elite canon; me being one of them (Halo 3’s elite HUD is the only one me and many elite fans pass as closest to being realistic).

I could go on, but I’m not in the mood to. What I’m getting at is that it does take some time to do this stuff and it isn’t an overnight thing, most likely a month as they have to do all thats said above and run multiple tests to make sure the elites can balance in multiplayer.

Though it may be true they weren’t included for how 343i wanted to take the plot, I highly doubt 343i didn’t consider adding them to multiplayer. Also, MEGA66 CQC makes some excellent points in his statement above, I recommend you read.

And I honestly feel you think this process is only a matter of days. You got to remember, not everyone would be assigned to the elite development, maybe 6-10 people max, and these people eat, sleep, and poop like normal people.

> I’m not sure how much you know about game design. But it sounds like it’s not a whole lot. I spent a lot of time modding PC games to create new maps, campaign levels, character skins and models, weapons, etc. Trust me, making a new character model is one of the easier things to do (though not as easy as creating a new character skin. But that should be obvious).

If it is so easy for you, why does it take big game developers like 343i and Treyarch so long to create a multiplayer system that works even if it’s just modifying a current game? 343i took what? two-three months to do simple weapon tuning. I never said how long the process would be, just how complicated it is. But unlike you (to my current knowledge), paid professionals are constantly tweaking the elements of their games to create a balanced experience for the player.

Also, you mention in an earlier post that “They don’t even need to bother going the extra mile Bungie did in Reach of making Elite players have different statistics than Spartan players. All they have to do is shrink the Campaign model, and scale the campaign animations and hitboxes to roughly .8x the size so they align in height and width with a Spartan”.

I guess that’s true, but i think that we can all agree that would be quite lazy for a commercial game producing company to do as well as irritate elite fans who have to play a midget elites.

Why?

It’s pointless other then for machinima purposes or for Invasion (if they ever bring it back).

> > I’m not sure how much you know about game design. But it sounds like it’s not a whole lot. I spent a lot of time modding PC games to create new maps, campaign levels, character skins and models, weapons, etc. Trust me, making a new character model is one of the easier things to do (though not as easy as creating a new character skin. But that should be obvious).
>
> If it is so easy for you, why does it take big game developers like 343i and Treyarch so long to create a multiplayer system that works even if it’s just modifying a current game? 343i took what? two-three months to do simple weapon tuning. I never said how long the process would be, just how complicated it is. But unlike you (to my current knowledge), paid professionals are constantly tweaking the elements of their games to create a balanced experience for the player.
>
> Also, you mention in an earlier post that “They don’t even need to bother going the extra mile Bungie did in Reach of making Elite players have different statistics than Spartan players. All they have to do is shrink the Campaign model, and scale the campaign animations and hitboxes to roughly .8x the size so they align in height and width with a Spartan”.
>
> I guess that’s true, but i think that we can all agree that would be quite lazy for a commercial game producing company to do as well as irritate elite fans who have to play a midget elites.

It wasn’t necessarily tweaking the weapons themselves that took forever. It was trying and testing all the different possibilities until they settled on something they liked for each and every individual weapon. They tweaked, tested, retweaked, tested, and retweaked over and over for each and every weapon they modified.

As well, Elite fans are INFINITELY more irritated with the complete inability to play as Elites, than they would be to have the ability to play with the “smaller” Elites we’d already become accustomed to in Halo 2 and 3. Besides, you only see yourself when you die, and often not for long enough to see a .2% difference in your size when you don’t have a full sized Elite to compare it to. It’s not like anyone plays Halo CE and goes “OMG, that Elite is SO HUGE” for the most part, you don’t think twice about how big it is because in CE it wasn’t all that much larger than you, and you pretty much never got close enough to one to see it clearly. Halo Reach they made such a big deal out of making Elites larger than you that they actually over-sized them quite a bit. They were larger in Halo Reach than they were in any prior Halo game.

As well, I’d rather see them do that than have the wonky Halo 3 hitboxes come back, or to give the majority that plays as Spartans an excuse to complain about balance issues because they aren’t “exactly” the same.

> I’m not sure how much you know about game design. But it sounds like it’s not a whole lot. I spent a lot of time modding PC games to create new maps, campaign levels, character skins and models, weapons, etc. Trust me, making a new character model is one of the easier things to do (though not as easy as creating a new character skin. But that should be obvious).

Have you modded extra character models into every single map, menu, etc.? Then distributed these new maps to every single player to start up the game you modded?

> Why?
>
> It’s pointless other then for machinima purposes or for Invasion (if they ever bring it back).

The fact that there is a very real, and at one time fairly large community of Elite fans, a lot of which went back to Halo 3 and Reach just because Elites weren’t available whatsoever in Halo 4, some of which never bought Reach or Halo 4 simply because they felt insulted and ignored by the lack of support towards them.

By your logic, having a choice of armour is pointless and they aught to just scrap it too. And having a choice of colour is pointless and that should be scrapped. All spartans should be Green in FFA. Oh, for that matter, they aught to scrap all the weapons other than the BR, AR, Plasma Pistol, Sniper, Shotgun, and Rockets. Since all the other weapons in the game are just light variations or equivalents of those guns.

In Halo 3, Bungie’s statistics pulled that 10% of the community played as Elites on a regular basis, while an additional 5% alternated on a regular basis. It’s silly to remove something that people obviously like and don’t want to lose the ability to play. Especially something people have grown accustomed to having around for 8 years.

> > I’m not sure how much you know about game design. But it sounds like it’s not a whole lot. I spent a lot of time modding PC games to create new maps, campaign levels, character skins and models, weapons, etc. Trust me, making a new character model is one of the easier things to do (though not as easy as creating a new character skin. But that should be obvious).
>
> Have you modded extra character models into every single map, menu, etc.? Then distributed these new maps to every single player to start up the game you modded?

The new DLC Armour and Weapon skins not coded into the game that are coming out with the new set of Action figures is proof that 343i has created a more DLC friendly map system. And they have to adjust the menu UI’s to fit these new DLC choices in. So don’t try to imply that it’s not possible. Halo 4 is not Halo 3.

Halo 3’s map system was really silly in it’s design, in that it couldn’t render something that wasn’t specifically rendered into the map. What was REALLY silly about it is that games like Quake, or even Doom (which has since been modded to be 3D model capable) just require you to have build the new model, and code it into the game. And you can’t use the argument that modern games “require” .map files because Gears of War has been adding new player models in DLC without releasing massive map patches to make them compatible.

Don’t assume that it has the same compatibility issues as Halo 3 did. 343i was testing new armour permutations for Halo Reach (as seen during screenshots for the defiant map pack). So it was obviously on their mind when developing Halo 4 to make it possible, and this new DLC pretty much proves that they’ve pulled it off.

Plus, all things considered. They could have done it when the game was being developed to begin with. I’m not implying that the issue is that we need this as DLC, so much as that we should have had this to begin with.

But to be honest, the largest mod I ever developed included a new campaign, entire set of changed weapons (by changed I mean that I adjusted everything about the original weapons including their skins, sounds, and functions, to be pretty much completely different), 3 character models, added class support (there were 3 classes, one for each model), new textures for walls and floors. New objects and models for those objects. And a few multiplayer maps for Doom II. It took about a year and a half to build, but only working a few hours a day on weekdays after school. Most of my work got done over Summer Vacation. I did have some help. I’m not much of an accomplished graphic artist so a friend made the textures. I just put them in and built the models.

> By your logic, having a choice of armour is pointless and they aught to just scrap it too. And having a choice of colour is pointless and that should be scrapped. All spartans should be Green in FFA. Oh, for that matter, they aught to scrap all the weapons other than the BR, AR, Plasma Pistol, Sniper, Shotgun, and Rockets. Since all the other weapons in the game are just light variations or equivalents of those guns.

It worked for CE.

> > By your logic, having a choice of armour is pointless and they aught to just scrap it too. And having a choice of colour is pointless and that should be scrapped. All spartans should be Green in FFA. Oh, for that matter, they aught to scrap all the weapons other than the BR, AR, Plasma Pistol, Sniper, Shotgun, and Rockets. Since all the other weapons in the game are just light variations or equivalents of those guns.
>
> It worked for CE.

And a baby without candy doesn’t mind that he doesn’t have candy. Give that baby candy, then take the candy away. And try not to expect the baby to resent losing it. The fact is you don’t know what you’re missing until you get it. Games develop, grow, and build. Taking things away is just going backwards. And someone will always hate it when it happens.

Let me use a metaphor that applies better to adults. Since most of us are adults here (I sure hope so anyway). Before you meet a girl, you don’t miss her. Then when you’re with her? You enjoy every minute of it. And when she leaves you? Well, your life just doesn’t feel the same. In fact, for a while it usually feels like crap. So stripping down Halo like that would probably make Halo feel like crap for a lot of people.

> > > I’m not sure how much you know about game design. But it sounds like it’s not a whole lot. I spent a lot of time modding PC games to create new maps, campaign levels, character skins and models, weapons, etc. Trust me, making a new character model is one of the easier things to do (though not as easy as creating a new character skin. But that should be obvious).
> >
> > Have you modded extra character models into every single map, menu, etc.? Then distributed these new maps to every single player to start up the game you modded?
>
> The new DLC Armour and Weapon skins not coded into the game that are coming out with the new set of Action figures is proof that 343i has created a more DLC friendly map system. And they have to adjust the menu UI’s to fit these new DLC choices in. So don’t try to imply that it’s not possible. Halo 4 is not Halo 3.
>
> Halo 3’s map system was really silly in it’s design, in that it couldn’t render something that wasn’t specifically rendered into the map. What was REALLY silly about it is that games like Quake, or even Doom (which has since been modded to be 3D model capable) just require you to have build the new model, and code it into the game. And you can’t use the argument that modern games “require” .map files because Gears of War has been adding new player models in DLC without releasing massive map patches to make them compatible.
>
> Don’t assume that it has the same compatibility issues as Halo 3 did. 343i was testing new armour permutations for Halo Reach (as seen during screenshots for the defiant map pack). So it was obviously on their mind when developing Halo 4 to make it possible, and this new DLC pretty much proves that they’ve pulled it off.
>
> Plus, all things considered. They could have done it when the game was being developed to begin with. I’m not implying that the issue is that we need this as DLC, so much as that we should have had this to begin with.
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> But to be honest, the largest mod I ever developed included a new campaign, entire set of changed weapons (by changed I mean that I adjusted everything about the original weapons including their skins, sounds, and functions, to be pretty much completely different), 3 character models, added class support (there were 3 classes, one for each model), new textures for walls and floors. New objects and models for those objects. And a few multiplayer maps for Doom II. It took about a year and a half to build, but only working a few hours a day on weekdays after school. Most of my work got done over Summer Vacation. I did have some help. I’m not much of an accomplished graphic artist so a friend made the textures. I just put them in and built the models.

I’d imagine that skins are easier than a character model.

> The new DLC Armour and Weapon skins not coded into the game that are coming out with the new set of Action figures is proof that 343i has created a more DLC friendly map system. And they have to adjust the menu UI’s to fit these new DLC choices in. So don’t try to imply that it’s not possible. Halo 4 is not Halo 3.

The new DLC armor and weapon skins are just that- skins. They do not require any new assets to be created, no new animations, nothing. They’re simply adding a new texture to a few items. It is hardly a big enough change compared to adding Elites.

> Halo 3’s map system was really silly in it’s design, in that it couldn’t render something that wasn’t specifically rendered into the map. What was REALLY silly about it is that games like Quake, or even Doom (which has since been modded to be 3D model capable) just require you to have build the new model, and code it into the game. And you can’t use the argument that modern games “require” .map files because Gears of War has been adding new player models in DLC without releasing massive map patches to make them compatible.

There is no argument about modern games using Halo’s divided .map system. This is a feature exclusive to Halo, as far as I know. Every Halo is just based on the old one’s engine, and the separation of items per-map has been there since CE.

You’re comparing apples to oranges with your bringing up Gears.

> Don’t assume that it has the same compatibility issues as Halo 3 did. 343i was testing new armour permutations for Halo Reach (as seen during screenshots for the defiant map pack). So it was obviously on their mind when developing Halo 4 to make it possible, and this new DLC pretty much proves that they’ve pulled it off.

Again, they are just adding new textures(In Reach’s case, a single model). There is no need for new animations or anything of the sort. The GRD helmet was only seen on a single map, and was more than likely on a dev console. It was not distributed publicly, and was contained to a single console; a few dozen at most.
I will assume the same compatibility issues exist because they do. It has been the same for every Halo game.