Bring back character models.

Elites making their way into MM in Halo 2 was one of the cooler multiplayer features added to the game, in fact before it was discovered that in Halo 2 they had disadvantages related to aim-assist, and hitbox size, at least 1/4 of the population was using them.

After that point, you were considered a noob for using an Elite because it gave you a disadvantage.

Then in Halo 3, there was alot of speculation about Brutes making their way into MP too, it was kind of a disappointment that they did it, especially with all these new armor permutations they could have used from campaign. There was also disappointment over Halo 2 Elite favorites like Honor Guards, and Heretics, not becoming available armor, instead we saw a bunch of new “multiplayer only” permutations we will probably never see actively in the actual fiction of Halo, short Assault.

At this point in time, it was decided Elites had an ADVANTAGE in Halo 3, therefore you were a Noob for using an Elite because you wouldn’t play as a Spartan, and have a disadvantage. (Funny how people just take what they don’t want and make up a reason why it is bad, huh?)

After constant immature excuse after immature excuse for why Elites are bad in multiplayer, none of which actually held real validity, Bungie became convinced they were better off just leaving Elites out of general gameplay. But to “please” Elite fans they decided we can SOMETIMES play with them, by using custom games, or gimmick gametypes like Invasion and Elite Slayer, it was more a slap in the face than anything.

The point of this thread? IGNORE THE IMMATURE WHINERS. Elites were FINE in MM, in both Halo 2 and 3. I don’t think I ever felt I won or lost a game that would have turned out differently had I, or the other team, changed their player model. Ultimately those screwed up headshots were ultimately the fault of the player, or in some cases, BR spread/lag. One theme I noticed is that against Elites it was always “oh it took 8 shots to kill because of Elite heads!”, but against Spartans it was always “oh it took 8 shots to kill because of BR inconsistency!” There was no damn difference.

Now it must be admitted that there was that hole in the neck in Halo 3. But that was the result of a GLITCH and cannot be taken into account when judging how the Elite model would affect a future game, which is probably not going to suffer the same problem.

But look I’ve strayed off the point. The point is: There is NO LEGITIMATE REASON not to have Elites, and hopefully some other Spartan-like species’ playable in Halo 4. If worse comes to worst just look at some of the things Bungie actually did wrong, and fix them. For instance, instead of bending an Elite to look the size of a Spartan, and making them shaped a little different. Why not just leave Elites standing tall, but scale them down, so they are both shaped the same as a Spartan, AND are the same size?

Ultimately a player should be able to choose what he wants to look like in multiplayer, otherwise you are just taking features AWAY from the game and progressing backwards.

Okay. I’m going to use a term you probably won’t like. I’m going to call it visual balance.

Let me explain, now the majority of the population in the game will probably be using Spartans right? It’s what we’re accustomed to since CE. They’re human, etc.

Now when we see Elites it’s jarring. We aren’t used to it. I think the model got a lot of flak because people quite simply weren’t used to shooting them. They weren’t an enemy in Halo 3’s campaign after all, and people rarely use them in MM.

It was just visually jarring to come across one or two in the game. The hitboxes may of been the same as the Spartan but there’s no doubting they look different to a Spartan. It ended up being confusing to many players. The Elites looked wider, but their heads were slimmer. Body shots were easier to pull off but headshots were more difficult. Which is why they were abused so much in SWAT. When you line up a shot how many times are you going to take hitboxes into account? You’re going to aim at what is the head.

Bottom line: The hitboxes may be the same as the Spartans but they don’t look the same. It’s balance.

Besides, I hate how hunched back they became so they could be balanced out for MP.

And I personally thought anybody that used an Elite in Halo 2 was a either a noob or a magnificent -Yoink-. To be audacious enough to be an Elite despite it’s obvious weaknesses and kick -Yoink- at the same time was always admirable. I took on the challenge a few times. But then I thought, “why am I nerfing myself?” and changed back. :stuck_out_tongue:

I never had that problem. Mind you as an Elite player, with lots of Elite player friends, I spent almost all my time outside of MM shooting nothing but other Elites. So I did have alot of practice. But to be honest, MOST of the community revolving around Halo today started playing during Halo 2 and 3. Both games of which had Elites in multiplayer, and the few that didn’t started in Halo CE and Reach, and likely played Campaign/Invasion enough to know the difference.

I find that in Halo Reach Elites are shaped perfect, they are just large. That’s why they should have always been scaled instead of bent. If they were made SMALLER in multiplayer, they would take on the exact same hitboxes, which would like up the exact same with where the head itself on the model is, and ultimately you can’t complain.

Not to mention, you are talking about gamers here, people who have spent HOURS shooting all kinds of targets, try and tell me you have a hard time headshotting and Grunt, or a Brute. Most of us have fought Necromorphs, Geth, Demons from Hell, the varying Locust creatures, Oddjob, Maians, Dinosaurs, Xenomorphs, Predators, and the various-shaped enemies of the Quake and Unreal Tournament series’. Generally without ANY character model complaints (short Oddjob of course). But all of a sudden a few players lose a game to a team of Elites (who they all assumed before the game started were probably 10 years old), and out of nowhere all of a sudden it’s some kind of imbalance?

If your visual advantage meant anything, it would have been a long time before the existence of a desensitized population caused by video games, and horror flicks. There is no scare factor, there is no “my god what is that thing” factor. An Elite is an Elite, it has a head like everything else. It bleeds, you can kill it.

Is street fighter imbalanced because no two characters are exactly the same? Is Warcraft imbalanced because there are so many completely different factions? No, they aren’t. There are MANY MANY more differences between characters in most RTS and Fighting games than there are between Spartans and Elites, and that doesn’t put a dent in their competitive value.

Besides, your point is already practically moot by the existence of different Armor permutations in Halo 3 and Reach. When you shoot a guy with a different helmet his head still looks strange compared to default. Plus all the variety in size of Shoulders (default vs Security/Grenadier?), what about the Collar Grenadier UA chest? That guard next to the head should cause the same confusion? Armor Effects (specifically Inclement Weather)?

to me it was only annoying in h3 swat when the guys who picked elites because they wanted to get an advantage were jumping so much.

I would find it weird to have a scaled model

I’d like to be an Elite in Halo 4 Multiplayer.

I think it’s better the way it is now in Reach. I didn’t like the Elites as much all hunched over in H2/H3, now we finally see them at full height standing upright, and they look BAD-A. Scaling them down standing at full height now to SPARTAN size is just non-canonical and wouldn’t look right.

It was annoying how in H3, people chose the Elite model for SWAT, their heads were all tucked in, and they jumped weird, the hitboxes didn’t match up…

> I think it’s better the way it is now in Reach. I didn’t like the Elites as much all hunched over in H2/H3, now we finally see them at full height standing upright, and they look BAD-A. Scaling them down standing at full height now to SPARTAN size is just non-canonical and wouldn’t look right.
>
> It was annoying how in H3, people chose the Elite model for SWAT, their heads were all tucked in, and they jumped weird, the hitboxes didn’t match up…

Multiplayer really doesn’t need to follow the story. Also I would love to have them again. I didn’t play them as much but it was fun once in awhile. I know many people that like being them all the time.

> > I think it’s better the way it is now in Reach. I didn’t like the Elites as much all hunched over in H2/H3, now we finally see them at full height standing upright, and they look BAD-A. Scaling them down standing at full height now to SPARTAN size is just non-canonical and wouldn’t look right.
> >
> > It was annoying how in H3, people chose the Elite model for SWAT, their heads were all tucked in, and they jumped weird, the hitboxes didn’t match up…
>
> Multiplayer really doesn’t need to follow the story. Also I would love to have them again. I didn’t play them as much but it was fun once in awhile. I know many people that like being them all the time.

It would just look awkward- an Elite that is the same exact size as a SPARTAN. And I enjoyed them as well, it was cool to do something different, but having different character models was confusing in the past for reasons I just said.

> I think it’s better the way it is now in Reach. I didn’t like the Elites as much all hunched over in H2/H3, now we finally see them at full height standing upright, and they look BAD-A. Scaling them down standing at full height now to SPARTAN size is just non-canonical and wouldn’t look right.
>
> It was annoying how in H3, people chose the Elite model for SWAT, their heads were all tucked in, and they jumped weird, the hitboxes didn’t match up…

The point is multiplayer only. If they appear in Campaign they would not be scaled down.

Trying to bring Canon into a multiplayer argument is pointless when you consider all the customization options you can apply to a Spartan, that everyone accepts. Most of the Armor wouldn’t Canonically exist, or ever be worn by a Spartan, and then there’s Armor Effects, don’t even get me started on the idea of a Spartan with a flaming head, or lightning armpits in Canon.

Not to mention Red Spartans and Blue Spartans fighting over two purposeless bases in a boxed canyon?

I highly doubt it.

id like to see them back…now i never really played them but i think it should be up to the player if they want to play them…the only way i would say no is if it gave them a super advantage which it never did and if it put u at a bit of a disadvantage and dont like it then dont play an elite plain and simple

To hell with the Elites, I want to play as a Grunt! Nothing says humiliation like being teabagged by a Grunt.

> > I think it’s better the way it is now in Reach. I didn’t like the Elites as much all hunched over in H2/H3, now we finally see them at full height standing upright, and they look BAD-A. Scaling them down standing at full height now to SPARTAN size is just non-canonical and wouldn’t look right.
> >
> > It was annoying how in H3, people chose the Elite model for SWAT, their heads were all tucked in, and they jumped weird, the hitboxes didn’t match up…
>
> The point is multiplayer only. If they appear in Campaign they would not be scaled down.
>
> Trying to bring Canon into a multiplayer argument is pointless when you consider all the customization options you can apply to a Spartan, that everyone accepts. Most of the Armor wouldn’t Canonically exist, or ever be worn by a Spartan, and then there’s Armor Effects, don’t even get me started on the idea of a Spartan with a flaming head, or lightning armpits in Canon.
>
> Not to mention Red Spartans and Blue Spartans fighting over two purposeless bases in a boxed canyon?
>
> I highly doubt it.

Canon is not the point, I just don’t like how they would look, put simply lol. I like the big intimidating look they had in Halo: CE/Reach. And that’s the only way for it to be fair if they were implemented is to be near-identical to a SPARTAN for matching hitboxes, and similar target size, which I wouldn’t like because I don’t like how they would look. And the hunched over looked didn’t bode well with me either for the reasons stated. It’s possible to be both an advantage or disadvantage, which lowers balance.

And I would prefer not to have 2 different versions of the Elites- Campaign and MP.

> > > I think it’s better the way it is now in Reach. I didn’t like the Elites as much all hunched over in H2/H3, now we finally see them at full height standing upright, and they look BAD-A. Scaling them down standing at full height now to SPARTAN size is just non-canonical and wouldn’t look right.
> > >
> > > It was annoying how in H3, people chose the Elite model for SWAT, their heads were all tucked in, and they jumped weird, the hitboxes didn’t match up…
> >
> > The point is multiplayer only. If they appear in Campaign they would not be scaled down.
> >
> > Trying to bring Canon into a multiplayer argument is pointless when you consider all the customization options you can apply to a Spartan, that everyone accepts. Most of the Armor wouldn’t Canonically exist, or ever be worn by a Spartan, and then there’s Armor Effects, don’t even get me started on the idea of a Spartan with a flaming head, or lightning armpits in Canon.
> >
> > Not to mention Red Spartans and Blue Spartans fighting over two purposeless bases in a boxed canyon?
> >
> > I highly doubt it.
>
> Canon is not the point, I just don’t like how they would look, put simply lol. I like the big intimidating look they had in Halo: CE/Reach. And that’s the only way for it to be fair if they were implemented is to be near-identical to a SPARTAN for matching hitboxes, and similar target size, which I wouldn’t like because I don’t like how they would look. And the hunched over looked didn’t bode well with me either for the reasons stated. It’s possible to be both an advantage or disadvantage, which lowers balance.
>
> And I would prefer not to have 2 different versions of the Elites- Campaign and MP.

I don’t get how they would LOOK different. They would LOOK the same, the only difference would be how high your camera is in comparison to the model, for the most part, you won’t even tell the difference unless a Spartan is standing immediately beside one, or it is right up in your face.

There really is no reason to argue without sounding all but petty about it, like you’ll make any excuse possible to argue the point, which is that a very real community has built up around Elite player models, and taking them away does little more than cause frustration for those members.

I think the height of the Reach elites are just fine for MM if they were in Halo 4 as playable models. No one really seems to have a hard time during Invasion Slayer with the larger sized Elites being mixed in with the Spartans. No reason to scale them back down to Spartan height if the basic hitbox placement is the same for both models.

In my opinion, I think 343 should have Elites stand upright like Spartans in MM, just scale them down to the size of a Spartan. It shouldn’t matter, multiplayer isn’t cannon. Look at Gears of War for example, in campaign the Locust are bigger, but they’re the same size in multiplayer and I’m sure nobody cares.

If you’re that concerned about cannon, explain to me why a squad of blue Spartans and a squad of red Spartans kill each other over a flag.

I completely agree. Elites should be scaled to be the same size as Spartans, they should have all the same attributes and proper customisation. The only difference between the Elites and Spartans in MP should be aesthetics. None of that crap they pulled in Reach.

> I never had that problem. Mind you as an Elite player, with lots of Elite player friends, I spent almost all my time outside of MM shooting nothing but other Elites. So I did have alot of practice. But to be honest, MOST of the community revolving around Halo today started playing during Halo 2 and 3. Both games of which had Elites in multiplayer, and the few that didn’t started in Halo CE and Reach, and likely played Campaign/Invasion enough to know the difference.
>
>
>
> I find that in Halo Reach Elites are shaped perfect, they are just large. That’s why they should have always been scaled instead of bent. If they were made SMALLER in multiplayer, they would take on the exact same hitboxes, which would like up the exact same with where the head itself on the model is, and ultimately you can’t complain.
>
> Not to mention, you are talking about gamers here, people who have spent HOURS shooting all kinds of targets, try and tell me you have a hard time headshotting and Grunt, or a Brute. Most of us have fought Necromorphs, Geth, Demons from Hell, the varying Locust creatures, Oddjob, Maians, Dinosaurs, Xenomorphs, Predators, and the various-shaped enemies of the Quake and Unreal Tournament series’. Generally without ANY character model complaints (short Oddjob of course). But all of a sudden a few players lose a game to a team of Elites (who they all assumed before the game started were probably 10 years old), and out of nowhere all of a sudden it’s some kind of imbalance?
>
> If your visual advantage meant anything, it would have been a long time before the existence of a desensitized population caused by video games, and horror flicks. There is no scare factor, there is no “my god what is that thing” factor. An Elite is an Elite, it has a head like everything else. It bleeds, you can kill it.
>
>
> Is street fighter imbalanced because no two characters are exactly the same? Is Warcraft imbalanced because there are so many completely different factions? No, they aren’t. There are MANY MANY more differences between characters in most RTS and Fighting games than there are between Spartans and Elites, and that doesn’t put a dent in their competitive value.
>
>
> Besides, your point is already practically moot by the existence of different Armor permutations in Halo 3 and Reach. When you shoot a guy with a different helmet his head still looks strange compared to default. Plus all the variety in size of Shoulders (default vs Security/Grenadier?), what about the Collar Grenadier UA chest? That guard next to the head should cause the same confusion? Armor Effects (specifically Inclement Weather)?

I think you misunderstand. My post was based on the appearance of the Elite being somewhat deceiving when it comes to hitboxes simply based on it’s visual appearance and what actually counts as a hit.

I will try to get a height comparison for this thread just to see how close they are in reach.

There can be SWAT and Covie SWAT. But Team Slayer and Objective and BTB should all be open to it.

At least make Elites playable in Social Playlists. That’s enough of a compromise.

> There can be SWAT and Covie SWAT. But Team Slayer and Objective and BTB should all be open to it.
>
> At least make Elites playable in Social Playlists. That’s enough of a compromise.

social playlist? most elite players are people who enjoy playing ranked MM why should we be prevented from playing?

I mean look at reach, elites are huge targets and people still find a way to complain about it