I posted this on NeoGAF and I’m interested to see what people here think:
At the end I note some general sandbox and art changes with a return to AR/Pistol starts.
I can’t really argue with most of what you said, it clearly seems like you did your research and know what you’re talking about.
However, I have some questions about your proposed sandbox changes.
You want the PR back w/ CE stun effect, but you didn’t mention whether it should only be accurate when fired semi-automatically(CE), accurate when fired fully automatically(Halo 2), or always randomly and commonly inaccurate(Halo 3/Reach).
Why make the BR hitscan?
Are these the only weapons you see in this sandbox, or would the Rocket Launcher/Sniper Rifle/Shotty still be a part of it?
Lastly, is this all you want in only Matchmaking/Default gametypes, or would this be the full sandbox for the entire game?
I just quickly put some raw thoughts/posts together, but yes the Sniper, Rocket, etc. would be in the game. The post was more dealing with the false perceptions of CE with some sprinkled changes to interesting weapons that I think could be made better.
PR: I’d like to function similarly to CE.
BR: Yeah I guess it doesn’t have to be hitscan, but the reason I stated that is to give it another reason to pick up over the Pistol. As long as there’s no lag, I’m fine with a burst fire weapon without hitscan.
Rest of the weapons: Hell yes. I love Halo’s sandbox and there are tons of improvements that could be made instead of scrapping fun weapons (why was the Grenade Launcher from Reach removed, for example).
Halo is the only FPS I get hyped for and I’d want nothing more than to have a diverse and useful sandbox to be used across Matchmaking/Custom Games Browser.
> I posted this on NeoGAF and I’m interested to see what people here think:
>
> http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=737239
>
> At the end I note some general sandbox and art changes with a return to AR/Pistol starts.
I think that as a high end game between notable high end players, it’s not representative of the average MMing experience. I would wager it’s not even a representation of the typical experience between random shmucks working together and communicating, or even between above average to decent players either.
Concerning your weapon sandbox changes and desire for AR/Magnum starts again: Eh? I don’t particularly love them, I don’t outright hate them either. I just don’t like them.
> > I posted this on NeoGAF and I’m interested to see what people here think:
> >
> > http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=737239
> >
> > At the end I note some general sandbox and art changes with a return to AR/Pistol starts.
>
> .
What?
> > > I posted this on NeoGAF and I’m interested to see what people here think:
> > >
> > > http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=737239
> > >
> > > At the end I note some general sandbox and art changes with a return to AR/Pistol starts.
> >
> > .
>
> What?
I have a bad habit of posting and then making rather significant edits to my post which change a large amount of the meaning.
I posted the . as a placeholder while I re-re-re-finalize my thoughts.
> > > > I posted this on NeoGAF and I’m interested to see what people here think:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=737239
> > > >
> > > > At the end I note some general sandbox and art changes with a return to AR/Pistol starts.
> > >
> > > .
> >
> > What?
>
> I have a bad habit of posting and then making rather significant edits to my post which change a large amount of the meaning.
>
> I posted the . as a placeholder while I re-re-re-finalize my thoughts.
Oh, okay.
> I think that as a high end game between notable high end players, it’s not representative of the average MMing experience. I would wager it’s not even a representation of the typical experience between random shmucks working together and communicating, or even between above average to decent players either.
Of course not. But it’s possible. Such depth and strategy is impossible in a game of Halo 4 Infinity Slayer.
> > I think that as a high end game between notable high end players, it’s not representative of the average MMing experience. I would wager it’s not even a representation of the typical experience between random shmucks working together and communicating, or even between above average to decent players either.
>
> Of course not. But it’s possible. Such depth and strategy is impossible in a game of Halo 4 Infinity Slayer.
Implication that HXB1 should have more depth and strategy to it than is currently possible?
I don’t disagree.
I could see them maybe opting to have the DMR act more like the CE pistol. I think that it may be too difficult for some players to grasp the idea that the side arm is that powerful. However, the DMR being that powerful could pass I think.
Yeah I’d be ok with the DMR functioning like the Pistol, just as long as they make it 2x, without bloom and preferrably no hitscan since we’re going to have dedicated servers.
> Yeah I’d be ok with the DMR functioning like the Pistol, just as long as they make it 2x, without bloom and preferrably no hitscan since we’re going to have dedicated servers.
Yeah, 2x zoom is where it’s at. The 5x zoom or whatever the dmr currently has is too much for a utility weapon IMO. I have never played with dedicated servers, so I have no idea how nonhitscan will play on it. All I have to go on is H3. I know it will for sure be better than that, but I tend to play things safe.
I really admire your dedication and how strongly you support your argument. It is nice to see someone delve this deeply into a game in order to understand and share this insight with the community. Your post has made me wish that I got to play Halo CE’s multiplayer all those years back. It kinda aggravates me as well since I now understand why people were so disappointed when Halo CEA came out and the multiplayer component was only on Reach. Well then I support you.
> I really admire your dedication and how strongly you support your argument. It is nice to see someone delve this deeply into a game in order to understand and share this insight with the community. Your post has made me wish that I got to play Halo CE’s multiplayer all those years back. It kinda aggravates me as well since I now understand why people were so disappointed when Halo CEA came out and the multiplayer component was only on Reach. Well then I support you.
This.
If there was anything Halo CE and Halo 3 had in common it was that scoring the maximum killtime with the main utility weapon was difficult. I’d like non-hitscan weapons back. As well as lowered aim assist levels (specifically in terms of bullet magnetism). But I don’t want them to put Bullet Travel AND Halo 3’s infamous BR and Carbine spread on the same staple weapon Leading shots takes still, accounting for an unavoidable random factor takes significantly less, putting both on the same weapon can cause consistency disaster.
The BR should have hitscan so the shots actually register. Along with no bullet spread. In a perfect world it wouldn’t have to be hitscan but it makes online play very frustrating if it’s not. I’m not confident that dedicated servers will solve the issues we experienced during Halo 3, even though a lot of that was netcode.
OT: It was a very good post, I saw it on Beyond as well. I’ll say it again, a ton of those replies on that thread made me cringe.
There was one person on the thread saying it’d be bad because we’d see a lot more three shots kills if a skilled opponent was going against a lesser skilled one. This is true, and is in fact what we’re trying to achieve! It’s called a skill-gap, 343, take notes.
Yeah, I’ve seen that thread on gaf. Really deep analysis that I’m also planning on doing for the whole Halo series (but will be way different from what you’ve said). I’ve actually been considering posting on Neogaf, because I heard it’s full of people who love games and will actually discuss thoughts and ideas rather then flame each other. But I’ve heard that plenty of times and whenever I look into it they’re all just the same. I even heard that Waypoint here had much more mature discussions but one of the first messages I recieved was by some guy telling me I had no right to talk about Halo at all. Just concerned if gaf also suffers from cyberbalkanization.
Anyways you said a lot and there’s much I can discuss and disagree with, but not enough time here to do so. So I’m just gonna pick and choose a few areas.
First off, the idea of “button combos” and other “secret” features of weapons was already dismissed by someone who posted in that thread, so I don’t need to add anything to that. Well, except for that while you say weapons should have secret features, I disagree and think weapons should have offsets. It’s a way to balance out the weapons, good in some areas, bad in others. That’s why I always thought bloom and spread was a good idea, a way to offset strong weapons and give something new for players to learn about and to consider when to use those weapons. It’s why I always favoured the AR in Reach. Learned how to control the bloom and I now regularly beat people at medium range and even beat people at long range. Several times I’ve sniped people across Hemorrhage with it.
I also want to talk about how “balanced” the Magnum was and I’m sorry, but that weapon is so OP. Sure, it was harder for people who have been playing the game for 10 years to land shots due them both sides knowing how it functions but that doesn’t take away the fact that it is. The majority of fights was with the pistol, even if not all of them landed or ended. Whenever someone spawned he immediately switched to the pistol. It’s very easy to pick up on when something is OP. I still to this day remember having LANs for Halo 1 where it was only pistols. Even when I invited people who have never played Halo or even a FPS in general, everybody picked up within 5 minutes how strong the pistol was and all learned to only use it. That doesn’t mean they won all battles, but it did increase their chances and limit the game down to just one-gun. One popular gametype we always played was selecting “No Sniping” in the game options. Sure, it took away the sniper, but we all thought it was worth it to get rid of the magnum.
Even if it is just a perception before they learn. I remember once during Reach I was dominating with the Plasma Repeater, because I learned how to use it. I killed one guy 3 times in a row and the next time I saw him he was using the Plasma Repeater. Sure, I beat him easy since I knew more about how it worked, but it doesn’t change the fact that the only reason why he even considered picking it up was because he thought it was OP.
Let’s look at another game. If you look around enough you might hear how annoying Deathstroke is in the Injustice game. He has a few instant range weapons with small recovery time. In most matches with him everybody would just spam those attacks. Now, someone who has learned how to play the game might know how to effectively counter him, but it doesn’t stop how cheap it feels, how easy it is, and how effective it is to people who don’t specifically practise against those spam attacks. Even then the latency might screw your counter up enough for him to hurt you and even if you block he’ll meter burn a grenade that breaks through your defence. I was persistent enough to learn how to counter him, but considering how close I was to quitting I know for a fact that many people quit the game because of him (and probably some other “spam” attacks).
In that video there was something that completely bugged me. There’s a feature in Halo that I thought benefitted the game and weapons. It was taken out and I had to wait until ODST and Reach before I could enjoy it again. The players didn’t consider health in the game at all. Even when one of them with an overshield was standing right next to a med pack with one block of health remaining, he didn’t touch it because the killtimes in the game at that level makes it irrelevant. I have no problem if you think it shouldn’t but I think it does and adds strategy to the game. In Halo 2 and 3 you just have to wait a moment to be at 100% again. No need to asked to be covered while you rush off to a med pack, no need to try and predict if someone you just died to will need one and cut him off. Just wait it out and reset. Start all over again.
Another problem I had that might make you angry is that while very skillful, it really seems like the game is just memorization. Just read up what to do at specific times or imitate what someone else did. What do you do in this situation? Well whatever it is other people would do there. There’s really nothing that changed up the scenario and made the players consider different strategies or how to immediately respond to the new situation. Stuff like that can really show who can keep their cool and quick witted enough to respond appropriately. Also gives players a chance to surprise the other team, get a small lead, and show people that there’s still more to the game to learn and experience (how long can you play the same game everyday before you get bored?) etc. Even one of the worlds most famous Chess players eventually started hating the game because it all came down to memorization.
I think that’s enough for now. I can talk all day about Halo that will probably do nothing but make you mad for having a different opinion about Halo. I’m sorry.
> Several times I’ve sniped people across Hemorrhage with it.
Yes, your famous Hemorrhage AR sniping that I have never seen proof of. I don’t believe you. You know what I do when I don’t believe someone? I test what they are saying. The testing I did wasn’t carried out with a high level of scientific rigor, but if it takes 17 seconds for me to kill a standing opponent from the cliff to the top of blue base, I could never kill an opponent who is aware of what’s happening. I have no doubt the kill time could vary with ±2 seconds, but it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s extremely improbable to get a kill with an AR from that distance against a player who is actually reacting to it. Hence, unless you can give me undeniable proof, I can only say that you are either lying or at least greatly exaggerating.
> I also want to talk about how “balanced” the Magnum was and I’m sorry, but that weapon is so OP.
Precision weapons dominate the sandbox of Halo. As a matter of fact, precision weapons dominate in most games. It just happens to be that in Halo the only precision weapons are semiautomatics. The pistol was the only non-power precision weapon in Halo CE. It’s not that it was overpowered, it just was the only weapon in the mid-long range niche aside from the sniper.
The other weapons did, aside from the Needler, serve in their respective niches. Plasma Pistol was good for taking out shields, AR would have an advantage against the pistol in a close range encounter, the stun of the Plasma Rifle was effective. But none of these weapons happened to be viable for mid-long range combat and therefore when it came down to choosing between them and the pistol, you chose the pistol.
This is not just a “problem” of Halo. In Battlefield for instance, I would have hard time picking a shotgun over any of the rifles. I would only pick a shotgun if I wanted to restrict myself to close range. In any other case, I always pick a precision weapon, a weapon that is capable of mid to long range combat. When I played Battlefield 3, there was no other sensible option for me than the M16A3 because it was a good well rounded weapon.
In Counter Strike, the best choices always tend to be the rifles. There is no reason to pick, say, a shotgun because it’s inferior in ranged combat. If you choose it, you restrict your freedom to move.
The only exception to this rule are the older shooters where you can hold all the weapons. But in any game that restricts the player to two weapons, picking a close range weapon over a precision weapon is rarely justified.
> Another problem I had that might make you angry is that while very skillful, it really seems like the game is just memorization. Just read up what to do at specific times or imitate what someone else did. What do you do in this situation? Well whatever it is other people would do there. There’s really nothing that changed up the scenario and made the players consider different strategies or how to immediately respond to the new situation. Stuff like that can really show who can keep their cool and quick witted enough to respond appropriately. Also gives players a chance to surprise the other team, get a small lead, and show people that there’s still more to the game to learn and experience (how long can you play the same game everyday before you get bored?) etc. Even one of the worlds most famous Chess players eventually started hating the game because it all came down to memorization.
In any games there are tactics you need to memorize, the skill is in knowing when to do what. As far as Halo goes, regardless of if you know perfectly well when a weapon will spawn, you still needed to consider what to do based on the variables that are your own positioning and your opponent’s positioning. There is no one blanket strategy to get a certain power weapon that would apply to all situations. You always need to adapt your decisions based on what your opponents are doing.
Same goes for Chess. However, it’s been researched so much that the strengths and weaknesses of many strategies are well known. Inevitably the whole game could be known inside out, but that’s the fate of any game with a limited amount of strategies. In other words, that’s the fate of every game if it’s played and researched long enough. There is no way to avoid that.
No worries Neo, I didn’t get upset. If you don’t mind, can you send me a PM if you ever get around to making that megapost so I can read through it and respond to that?
Nice responses tsassi, but get out of my head!
totally agree with your perspective here, Unknown.
I think I’ll send you a PM so we can discuss Halo CE related things, just for -Yoink- and giggles.
oh, also, see my post here (it’s related).