Bloom, ADS, and H5

I don’t like the fact that H5 contains a hipfire penalty (decreased accuracy when not scoped), and no amount of arguing from anyone will convince me otherwise. No hipfire penalty is one of the key things that sets Halo apart. I would like to provide some feedback in the hopes of maintaining that distinction.

There is a better way to make automatics more useful than to slap a scope on them (which I am fine with) and magically make them more accurate (which I disagree with): replace bloom with reticle jitter.

I don’t like bloom. Never have, never will. Its existence is justified on the basis of decreasing the effective range for automatics. This is a necessary thing, but bloom is not the only way to do it. Instead, always have the weapon fire where the reticle is pointed, but give the reticle some amount of predictable (recoil) and some amount of random (jitter) movement after firing. The difference between recoil and jitter:

  1. Recoil is what we already have . . . predictable muzzle climb on BRs, SMGs, etc. Reticle ends up centered on a different spot in a predictable manner after firing. All weapons should have some degree of this, individualized to the weapon.

  2. Jitter would replace random bloom by having the reticle jump (without corresponding changes in look direction) with every shot. Reticle will take a certain amount of time to drift back to the center of the view (again, without affecting look direction).

Because there is not some hidden bloom factor - because you can actually see where your weapon will shoot at all times - burst firing can be used more effectively. You don’t have to guess at how long to wait between bursts (while hoping that bloom doesn’t eat your shots); you can see when you’re on target and can fire again. This takes increasing the utility of automatics from a simple button press (SmartScope) to requiring some minor amount of additional skill. The skill is in compensating for jitter between bursts faster than the game returns the reticle to center . . . which is impossible to do with bloom since bloom is hidden from the player. It lets the player determine the accuracy of his weapon - not the game.

As an additional benefit, there would never be a case where you fire a weapon and the bullet doesn’t go where the reticle said it would. This is simple and intuitive and will not give players unused to Halo any significant problems. Bullet goes where crosshairs point. Always. Every FPS player can understand that.

Better ways to make automatics more effective without simply decreasing kill times . . . sure. I’m for that. But not through ADS. Get rid of bloom and put the accuracy of the weapon in the players’ hands . . . and do so in a way that requires as little adaptation as possible for both longtime Halo players and those new to the franchise.

I agree, there should be no added benefit for zooming in besides a magnified view… and weapons without a scope should not even have the capability.

> 2533274803544208;2:
> I agree, there should be no added benefit for zooming in besides a magnified view… and weapons without a scope should not even have the capability.

First part, I agree. Second, I don’t. Canonically, the helmet visor allows zoom, and since the reticle is just part of the HUD, all weapons should be able to be fired while zoomed. Whether a weapon has a scope is irrelevant. As far as I am concerned, they can remove the physical scope from all the weapons to reinforce that. I’m fine with zooming while using an AR or SMG . . . but the act of zooming should not grant a magical increase in accuracy.

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> > 2533274803544208;2:
> > I agree, there should be no added benefit for zooming in besides a magnified view… and weapons without a scope should not even have the capability.
>
>
> First part, I agree. Second, I don’t. Canonically, the helmet visor allows zoom, and since the reticle is just part of the HUD, all weapons should be able to be fired while zoomed. Whether a weapon has a scope is irrelevant. As far as I am concerned, they can remove the physical scope from all the weapons to reinforce that. I’m fine with zooming while using an AR or SMG . . . but the act of zooming should not grant a magical increase in accuracy.

Don’t care. Canon and lore is irrelevant to multiplayer balance.

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> > 2533274971476153;3:
> > > 2533274803544208;2:
> > > I agree, there should be no added benefit for zooming in besides a magnified view… and weapons without a scope should not even have the capability.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > First part, I agree. Second, I don’t. Canonically, the helmet visor allows zoom, and since the reticle is just part of the HUD, all weapons should be able to be fired while zoomed. Whether a weapon has a scope is irrelevant. As far as I am concerned, they can remove the physical scope from all the weapons to reinforce that. I’m fine with zooming while using an AR or SMG . . . but the act of zooming should not grant a magical increase in accuracy.
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>
>
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> Don’t care. Canon and lore is irrelevant to multiplayer balance.

When canon can be followed without being detrimental to multiplayer, it should be. This is not detrimental to multiplayer . . . it (in my opinion) makes it better. Simply stating the word “canon” somewhere in the explanation does not automatically render it bad for multiplayer balance.

For an example, canonically, MC can shoot while running at top speed. There is no combat-function-disabling sprint mechanic in canon.

Descope. Smart scope Is diferent I thought Id hate it but meh Descope takes out any worry I had. As long as i am still accurate off the hip I’m good. With all the room the gun takes when zoomed and all the mobility in H5 anyone walking around zoomed like its COD is getting outplayed by someone with a better shot

hmm without an increased accuracy while zoomed, there’s no reason to zoom in in the first place. The magnified view benefit is evansescent small that it doesn’t really pay off to do it at all.
I’d say either leave it as it is, or remove the ss scope capability for autos completely

> 2533274971476153;3:
> > 2533274803544208;2:
> > I agree, there should be no added benefit for zooming in besides a magnified view… and weapons without a scope should not even have the capability.
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>
>
> First part, I agree. Second, I don’t. Canonically, the helmet visor allows zoom, and since the reticle is just part of the HUD, all weapons should be able to be fired while zoomed. Whether a weapon has a scope is irrelevant. As far as I am concerned, they can remove the physical scope from all the weapons to reinforce that. I’m fine with zooming while using an AR or SMG . . . but the act of zooming should not grant a magical increase in accuracy.

He nailed it right on the head.

I thought the AR already had a “jitter” effect when zoomed. There was noticeable kick.

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> I thought the AR already had a “jitter” effect when zoomed. There was noticeable kick.

Bloom still applies. The bullet is given a random deviation from where the reticle is pointing when the weapon fires.

> 2533274820441404;7:
> hmm without an increased accuracy while zoomed, there’s no reason to zoom in in the first place. The magnified view benefit is evansescent small that it doesn’t really pay off to do it at all.
> I’d say either leave it as it is, or remove the ss scope capability for autos completely

The point of zooming in is to get the player back into Red Reticule Range. While you have the RR, you get the aim assist and what not. It’s meant for distance battles. There WAS never a reason to zoom in when someone is right next to you. Now that there is an accuracy increase, people will need to use SS in order to be the most effective at all ranges, thus completely changing the way Halo is played.

> 2533274839151243;11:
> > 2533274820441404;7:
> > hmm without an increased accuracy while zoomed, there’s no reason to zoom in in the first place. The magnified view benefit is evansescent small that it doesn’t really pay off to do it at all.
> > I’d say either leave it as it is, or remove the ss scope capability for autos completely
>
>
> The point of zooming in is to get the player back into Red Reticule Range. While you have the RR, you get the aim assist and what not. It’s meant for distance battles. There WAS never a reason to zoom in when someone is right next to you. Now that there is an accuracy increase, people will need to use SS in order to be the most effective at all ranges, thus completely changing the way Halo is played.

I don’t know about completely changing, but it will certainly change some aspects of it. I agree with you, however, that what it changes won’t be for the better.

> 2533274971476153;12:
> > 2533274839151243;11:
> > > 2533274820441404;7:
> > > hmm without an increased accuracy while zoomed, there’s no reason to zoom in in the first place. The magnified view benefit is evansescent small that it doesn’t really pay off to do it at all.
> > > I’d say either leave it as it is, or remove the ss scope capability for autos completely
> >
> >
> >
> > The point of zooming in is to get the player back into Red Reticule Range. While you have the RR, you get the aim assist and what not. It’s meant for distance battles. There WAS never a reason to zoom in when someone is right next to you. Now that there is an accuracy increase, people will need to use SS in order to be the most effective at all ranges, thus completely changing the way Halo is played.
>
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> I don’t know about completely changing, but it will certainly change some aspects of it. I agree with you, however, that what it changes won’t be for the better.

While I agree that this “feature” should disappear, de-scoping mostly eliminates this problem. If they fix the auto zoom in after decode (forcing the player to press the button again), then it would be fine.

> 2533274971476153;3:
> . . but the act of zooming should not grant a magical increase in accuracy.

The act of zooming by definition SHOULD increase accuracy. It has done so since Halo: Reach on the scope-able weapons… It’s noticeable on all snipers since CE.

“You” can be a cynic and flip the idea that shooting unscoped has a penalty to accuracy… Or you can realise the reason one uses a scope is to indeed increase accuracy and H3 was not perfect for not increasing accuracy when scoped on the non-power precisions, the H2BR had its blooming spread removed for netcode and CE was always intended for LAN.

AND H5 is not like H4 AND H5 only allows scoped fire when not taking damage. Those in a situational advantage are not punished for not having a BR or DMR.
While I agree the Sniper needs to feel smoother in transition, even if it’s intended to prevent quick scoping, the other weapons do not feel un-Halo because they scope in slightly different than CE through Reach. I feel extremely comfortable no-scoping with Pistols, BRs and DMR’s past 12m or so versus AR’s and SMG’s. I don’t feel weak for not using a Pistol, BR or DMR.

My favourite weapon in the beta was by far the Pistol :smiley:

> 2603643534597848;14:
> > 2533274971476153;3:
> > . . but the act of zooming should not grant a magical increase in accuracy.
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>
>
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> The act of zooming by definition SHOULD increase accuracy. It has done so since Halo: Reach on the scope-able weapons… It’s noticeable on all snipers since CE.
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> “You” can be a cynic and flip the idea that shooting unscoped has a penalty to accuracy… Or you can realise the reason one uses a scope is to indeed increase accuracy and H3 was not perfect for not increasing accuracy when scoped on the non-power precisions, the H2BR had its blooming spread removed for netcode and CE was always intended for LAN.
>
> AND H5 is not like H4 AND H5 only allows scoped fire when not taking damage. Those in a situational advantage are not punished for not having a BR or DMR.
> While I agree the Sniper needs to feel smoother in transition, even if it’s intended to prevent quick scoping, the other weapons do not feel un-Halo because they scope in slightly different than CE through Reach. I feel extremely comfortable no-scoping with Pistols, BRs and DMR’s past 12m or so versus AR’s and SMG’s. I don’t feel weak for not using a Pistol, BR or DMR.
>
> My favourite weapon in the beta was by far the Pistol :smiley:

I disagree with the premise. Simply because something has been done since Reach does not make it the optimal way to do things. Many things have been done since Reach - like sprint - which are suboptimal. I don’t think that scoping should increase the accuracy of the precisions. I know it does, but that doesn’t mean I think that is the best way to do it. In the specific case of the sniper, the behavior is (in my opinion) a reasonable exception to the general rule in order to limit the power of the weapon. But I don’t buy it for the precisions. It’s unnecessary.

Next, I think the purpose of scoping has been lost or clouded because of mechanics like this. Scoping was not originally meant to be used to increase accuracy of the weapon but rather to make holding the reticle on target easier by making the target bigger and reducing controller sensitivity. It does not need to have anything to do with increasing the inherent accuracy of the weapon. Arguments about the technical limitations in past titles need not apply, as many of those technical limitations no longer exist.

When it comes to “flipping” the argument, that has nothing to do with cynicism. By your logic, the CoD-style ADS mechanic doesn’t involve a hipfire penalty, it just grants a scoped bonus. This is semantics. A scoped bonus and a hipfire penalty are synonymous terms. The only difference is whether scoped or unscoped is the reference point, which is irrelevant as both reference points are valid. Granting a bloom reduction when scoped is absolutely a hipfire penalty, and no amount of wordsmithing or lack of cynicism will change that.

As far as the situational advantage goes, that argument must have limits, lest it be used to justify having scoping give you explosive projectiles to prevent punishing you for not having rockets (or any other on-map weapon) when you have a situational advantage. The reason the situational advantage occurs is not because ARs lack magical accuracy increases when scoped . . . it’s because in H2 / H3 you could start with no viable weapon for distance shooting. The answer there is to start with a viable weapon for distance shooting - be it BRs or SMG / AR + [a real] Magnum (like H4’s Magnum).

The root cause of the problem is not due to the scoped accuracy of the automatics. If it were, then a completely consistent argument with yours could be constructed thusly by altering the starting weapon set: Everyone starts with plasma pistols and plasma rifles. BRs are on the map. This leads to players having only spawn weapons being unable to exploit situational advantages, so, when scoped, the plasma projectiles fly at bullet speeds. And it’s okay because descope is back.

No one would buy that; everyone would complain that the starting weapon choice is the problem, not the slow-moving plasma projectiles. And they’d be right. Giving automatics less bloom when scoped addresses the symptom, not the cause. The cause is either the weapons are inherently underpowered compared to the precisions or that the starting weapon choices are poor, with my vote being the latter. It is the cause that should be addressed - not the symptom.

Lastly . . . the slippery slope. In many cases the slippery slope argument is a fallacy. In this case it is not, as you first used the converse (because it was done on A in the past, then also doing it to B must be fine) in your argument without qualifying it with any additional boundaries. Adding this penalty (or scoped benefit, if you prefer) continues an unfortunate trend that 343i has played with in another instance: the RoF increase and single-shot characteristic of the scoped lightrifle . . . in which the real problem was an ill-advised proliferation of weapons that resulted in an attempt to make a re-skinned DMR somehow “different” than the actual DMR. Increasing the magnitude of the hipfire penalty beyond what it currently is has no gameplay benefit, other than to mask the symptoms of the real root cause - which is a suboptimal selection of starting weapons - and it is disappointing to see it continuing to happen in Halo.

> 2533274971476153;15:
> Next, I think the purpose of scoping has been lost or clouded because of mechanics like this. Scoping was not originally meant to be used to increase accuracy of the weapon but rather to make holding the reticle on target easier by making the target bigger and reducing controller sensitivity.

ADS generally reduces controller sensitivity, Halo5 does this in the same manner as other Halos, and that is through red reticle, not scoped or not, non-powerweapons.

> When it comes to “flipping” the argument, that has nothing to do with cynicism. By your logic, the CoD-style ADS mechanic doesn’t involve a hipfire penalty, it just grants a scoped bonus. This is semantics. A scoped bonus and a hipfire penalty are synonymous terms. The only difference is whether scoped or unscoped is the reference point, which is irrelevant as both reference points are valid. Granting a bloom reduction when scoped is absolutely a hipfire penalty, and no amount of wordsmithing will change that.

It is wordsmithing to make them synonymous. It is because of the basemovement changes and magnetism activation differences, and especially de-scoping, that they have different reference points.

> As far as the situational advantage goes, that argument must have limits, lest it be used to justify having scoping give you explosive projectiles to prevent punishing you for not having rockets (or any other on-map weapon) when you have a situational advantage. The reason the situational advantage occurs is not because ARs lack magical accuracy increases when scoped . . . it’s because in H2 / H3 you could start with no viable weapon for distance shooting. The answer there is to start with a viable weapon for distance shooting - be it BRs or SMG / AR + [a real] Magnum (like H4’s Magnum).
>
> The problem was never the scoped accuracy of the automatics. If it were, then a completely consistent argument with yours could be constructed thusly: Everyone starts with plasma pistols and plasma rifles. BRs are on the map. This leads to players having only spawn weapons being unable to exploit situational advantages, so, when scoped, the plasma rifles become hitscan and the projectiles instantaneously reach the target. And it’s okay because descope is back.
>
> No one would buy that; everyone would complain that the starting weapon choice is the problem - not the slow-moving plasma projectiles. And they’d be right. Giving automatics less bloom when scoped addresses the symptom, not the cause. The cause is either the weapons are inherently underpowered compared to the precisions or that the starting weapon choices are poor. It is the cause that should be addressed - not the symptom.
>
> Lastly . . . the slippery slope. In many cases the slippery slope argument is a fallacy. In this case it is not, as you first used the converse (because it was done on A in the past, then also doing it to B must be fine) in your argument without qualifying it with any additional boundaries. Adding this penalty (or scoped benefit, if you prefer) continues an unfortunate trend. Increasing the magnitude of the hipfire penalty beyond what it currently is has no gameplay benefit, other than to mask the symptoms of the real root cause - which is a suboptimal selection of starting weapons - and it is disappointing to see it continuing to happen in Halo.

Unfortunately here is what I would say is an example of not liking the solution to a known problem and giving deflecting examples off point.
All that leads to:
“Allowing automatics to tighten up their spread should not happen because one should choose a BR-like weapon because automatics are weak. We should not make spray and pray weapons strong so we are stuck with an unoptimal sandbox, unless Forge/Options are used to create a CE-like sandbox.”

If you’re someone that prefers the hardcore settings of a CE-like sandbox, its playlists/gametypes should not interferre with making a grander sandbox balanced. If the autos are sub-optimal is the “best” Halo games ever, then we have a reason to make them different than those games AND we still don’t forgo a BR/HCS playlist.

Back in my day, it was either you fired unzoomed or zoomed, none of this hipfire nonsense.

I’m heavily in favor of improving autos as well OP, though I feel like it’d just be better if bullet spread was kept to a minimum and/or increase the speed of which it resets back to normal to reward manual burst firing.

> 2603643534597848;16:
> 1. ADS generally reduces controller sensitivity, Halo5 does this in the same manner as other Halos, and that is through red reticle, not scoped or not, non-powerweapons.
>
> 2. It is wordsmithing to make them synonymous. It is because of the basemovement changes and magnetism activation differences, and especially de-scoping, that they have different reference points.
>
> 3. Unfortunately here is what I would say is an example of not liking the solution to a known problem and giving deflecting examples off point.
> All that leads to:
> “Allowing automatics to tighten up their spread should not happen because one should choose a BR-like weapon because automatics are weak. We should not make spray and pray weapons strong so we are stuck with an unoptimal sandbox, unless Forge/Options are used to create a CE-like sandbox.”
>
> If you’re someone that prefers the hardcore settings of a CE-like sandbox, its playlists/gametypes should not interferre with making a grander sandbox balanced. If the autos are sub-optimal is the “best” Halo games ever, then we have a reason to make them different than those games AND we still don’t forgo a BR/HCS playlist.

Figured this would be easier to number the points.

  1. No. Halo 5 additionally adds a reduction in automatic weapons bloom, which is what I am objecting to quite specifically.

  2. It is not. Weapons work one way when hipfired. They work a different way when zoomed. Those differences can be called either a “zoomed bonus” or “hipfire penalty” interchangeably, depending on whether you are starting from zoomed and comparing to hipfire or starting from hipfire and comparing to zoomed. Your argument is 100% semantics. If you prefer, I can entirely drop the term “hipfire penalty” from all subsequent posts and substitute “zoomed bonus”. The arguments will have the same force (or lack thereof, should I be all washed up) using either term. If terms can be used interchangeably without changing the argument, then the terms are synonymous.

  3. Stating that the root cause should be addressed rather than the symptom is not deflecting. The root cause of the situation you described was you can potentially start with weapons that prevent you from taking advantage of common situations. This can be addressed by (a) changing the starting weapons; (b) changing the default weapon characteristics; or, (c) changing a mechanic associated with weapon use such that it has different characteristics in different situations. I choose (a) or (b); you are defending (c). Restricting the solutions to only the one you are defending by labeling other potential solutions as “deflecting” is an invalid argument. Only if my solutions did not address the problem would they qualify as “deflecting”.

Additionally, you read things into my argument that are simply not there. I do not want weak automatics. I want automatics to be strong . . . with the caveat that they are strong for short range combat. This was always the intent with automatics, stated by both Bungie and 343i. The reason was to give an incentive to move around the map to obtain on-map weapons while still allowing spawning players to compete well enough that the game is still fun to play. I like that design intent and wish to keep it. If that can be accomplished with an overall buff to all automatics, I’m all for it.

You assume I just want to run around with a BR all the time. That is not true. I voluntarily use the SMG all the time in H2 when appropriate situations present themselves. Likewise, I voluntarily use the AR all the time in H4. The BR isn’t even the weapon I have the most fun using . . . I think the Magnum is the most fun weapon to use (but - except for CE and H4 - next to useless in most situations). Regardless, I have no problem with starting with automatics . . . as long as I have a reasonably capable Magnum (or other weapon) to allow me to take advantage of other situations if I find myself in them prior to obtaining a BR.